Why I percieve the "new" scan as broken

[Noctover]

Bingo!

Exploration currently is a joke. Flying to a system , scanning it by holding a button, looking at the semi-filled system map, not seeing anything of value, shrugging and moving to the next system - this always has been a broken mechanic, clearly not designed to be the full method of exploration, but unfortunately overlooked for updating due to 'priorities'. The interesting thing of course, is that when you do it this way, you have absolutely no idea if you just missed a completely new 'interesting thing' because you never had the option to do a more thorough scan.

In the new suite of scanning tools, however, you do. You enter the system, flip to explorer mode, scan, look at the scan results, see what type of planets exist, and how many. If it's likely to be gas giants and asteroids, then it's probably not going to have much of interest, and you can move on, safe in the knowledge you still earned the same credits as you would have in the old scan system...

.. however, you see some signals in the mid-range of the scan and that makes you wonder if there's anything interesting there. So you scan deeper, detect the planets, and scan them - which takes no more than what, 1-2 seconds per planets once you're proficient with the tools? And at each scan, it will reveal if there's anything interesting on the planet other than minerals... so now you already know MUCH more than you ever did previously, and all for what, a few seconds extra work?

Depending on the size of the system - let's say 20 bodies - you could easily scan the entire system in less than 100 seconds I imagine, given how quickly it was done in the live stream. Compare this to the time it currently takes to scan every single body in a system today, which is more like 2-5 minutes PER body, depending on where they actually are, to get the exact same information...

Oh and don't forget, of course, every scan you make reveals the planet's looks too. So you SEE the planet you scanned, rather than a POSSIBLE icon you currently see in the system map. And then to be absolutely sure, you can then use the new orrery to literally zoom right up to the planet and take a look at its location, size, moons...

People who are complaining about the new system clearly don't know how it really works. The livestream video clearly showed how it really works.

Agreed. The best way to look at this new system is pretend the current one never existed. The current method of exploration isnt even exploring, its simply been a "placeholder" for the upcoming content.

If you bought the game initially and never had the convenience of a magical honk that maps out the universe you'd think no differently and judge the new system based on its rich in depth utility. It is actually rather good, i have to say (or looks good, lets not put absolutes yet until we've played it).

Its always risky taking convenience away from players in trade for depth, and in a way that's FDs own doing by having exploration so bare bones for so long, but if i was a new player rocking up next year i'd think exploration is a well fleshed out career and not a honkathon like it is now.

ED in its very nature is a slow paced game, people who enjoy the little details will love this big change.

 

[Nerix]

the new system requires that you scan EVERY body in the system BEFORE you can make an informed decision on whether the system is even worth additional activity.

This is not the case. They specifically address this concern in the livestream (timestamp added): https://youtu.be/rtmmmP_waf4?t=3194

Obviously it depends on what you define as "worth additional acitivity". But for me that sounds good enough to get a first, quick impression whether a system is worthwhile exploring further (obiously it needs a bit training).

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I don't agree.

New system is more involved, and looks entertaining and zen like.

But, I'll wait until I use it to decide properly.

 

[Kaltern]

I would also say that those who like looking for 'sights' are also viewing things all wrong - lets say you do an initial scan and you see a few gas giants. You're looking for a nice ringed giant with perhaps a couple of closely orbiting moons for that awesome shot of an SRV sitting on a rock, with the rings dwarfing you in the background. How do you do that right now? You look at the 2d system map, see there is indeed a ringed gas giant about 100,000Ls away, orbited by a couple of moons.

So you make the long trip, only to discover it just isn't 'right', and you wasted that long SC jump for nothing.

The new system? You see the gas giant signals, you locate and scan the area, then you see the individual bodies, scan them all, and you find it is a delightful green giant with delicate rings (you can't see THAT level of detail in the current system map), and so you think this could be just what you're looking for... but you want be sure the moons are orbiting close enough to be worth the long trip. So you jump to the orrery, zoom to that planet, and literally SEE the orbit lines of all the moons, decide on a specific moon as you destination... select it, jump back to cockpit view and off you go - DIRECTLY to the moon and planet you wanted.

I can guarantee this will take well over half the time off for each trip, and you gained MORE information about the visuals of the planets in FAR less time than you do currently. This is absolutely a win-win for everyone, and I am confused as to how traveller players are not seeing this,

 

[Macros Black]

Often it's not the bodies themselves that are interesting, but their relative positions. With the new system, I'm interested to know how much longer it will take to find potential bodies inside the rings of a gas giant, elw's with close landables, etc, making for great vistas.

That will be one of the questions, I'll try to answer in the Beta.

 

[Darkfyre99]

The current system goes like this:

1. Jump into the system
2. Hold down your keybind to start the scan/maneuver for fueling if you are going to
3. Scan completed, pull up the system map
4. Make a decision on whether or not to invest more time on the system
5. Take other actions in system or plot course and jump out

The new system, if I understand it correctly, works like this:

1. Jump into the system
2. Hold down your keybind to start the scan/maneuver for fueling if you are going to
3. Scan completed, you now know more about the primary star
4. Activate the analysis system, manually maneuver your forward only facing sensor onto each body individually, performing a full scan on it to determine what it is
5. Make a decision on whether or not to invest more time on the system
6. Take other actions in system or plot course and jump out

You don't even have the right number of steps, nor are they in the right order.

The proper order of events under the old system are:

1. Jump into the system
2. Hold down the honk button, maneuvering to refuel if you're going to
3. Scan completed, throttle down and initiate hyperspace jump
4. Pull up system map
5. Make a decision on whether or to invest more time on the system
6. Take other actions in system, or complete jump

Under the new system, the order of events are:

1. Jump into the system
2. Hold down the honk button, maneuvering to refuel if you're going to
3. Scan completed, make a decision on whether or not to invest more time on the system
4. Take action, based on your decision

The main difference between the two systems is that the new system is that the honk provides both more and less information than the old system did. More in the sense that it reveals more information about the system at a glance, making it easier to spot interesting anomalies. Less in the sense that you don't see the orbital hierarchies of the system at a glance, requiring more time to find quinary worlds.

Given the fact that this new system will also make finding surface anomalies much easier, the loss of easily identifying quinary worlds in exchange for finding things you'd almost certainly miss under the old system is a win in my book.

 

[Kaltern]

Often it's not the bodies themselves that are interesting, but their relative positions. With the new system, I'm interested to know how much longer it will take to find potential bodies inside the rings of a gas giant, elw's with close landables, etc, making for great vistas.

That will be one of the questions, I'll try to answer in the Beta.

Well using the orrery, I'd say it'll be quicker than having to fly to each body manually....

 

[Leper Messiah]

Yup I think those who want to visually "see" what was interesting before going off to have a look will have an instant time sink to slow them down. It's a shame FD couldn't put some other bits of info in the FSS screen to help identify the sorts of weird stuff people look for...maybe those sorts of explorers should get together, compile a list of the sort of things they look for, then contact FD to try and get some sort of "signal" (noise or visual) in the FSS phase to alert you all to something that could be worth investigating, with all new sounds and stuff to learn?

 

[Iron Body]

Am I wrong that you'll have to point the ship at each object to see the analysis of that object? That is the core of my objection, after all because THAT will take more time than the system map TO REACH THE DECISION POINT of the system's worth in terms of further exploration. I don't want to waste the time looking at potatoes, even if it is only TO DETERMINE that they are potatoes not worth my time in the first place. With the current system, I have visual queues IN AN AGGREGATED image of the bodies, even if I don't have specifics.

Some people don't seem to have grasped this. But they will after several thousand repeats.

 

[EISENHORN01]

Balls I want my ‘magic explorer pill’ like captain cook and Columbus ad back in they day. You know the one, you arrive at some place only the locals know pop your pill and BINGO BANGO everything in your immediate vicinity is revealed to you and away you go and claim ‘I DISCOVERED THIS’ onto the next dot on the map. Why should explorers actually get out and work everything should be done for us at the press of a button.

 

[Jack Schitt]

I wish the moderators still had the ability to merge threads. I understand the desire to start another thread and somehow make your point rise above the noise threshold in the many that already exist, but when the point is exactly the same as the point already raised by numerous earlier posters it's counterproductive. Because I can't possibly follow a dozen threads on the same subject and keep tabs on who said what and where I just end up Ignoring all but the one or two initial threads, and possibly missing out on interesting perspectives.

But hey, maybe that's just me. Maybe some people love seeing the same subject being discussed with the same arguments in half of the threads in Dangerous Discussion. But I can only speak for myself, and vote with my own mouse. :|

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

your sequences are misleading to prove your point.

Second sequence step 3 should say "scan completed, you have a frequency analysis that with a little experience will tell you if the system is worth investigating or not."

But thats ok, you go ahead and rant about something you've a) not actually been able to use yet, and b) not watched and understood properly.

The basis for your complaint however clearly seems to be an issue of "how long will it take me to make money", which frankly is not the major consideration of most explorers. It migt be your play style, but don't assume its everyone elses.

Exactly what he said

 

[VR StarLightPL]

I'm gobsmacked by the fact that people don't actually comprehend what has transpired on the livestream. FDevs explicitly said that they made a wager that Adam Bourke will recognize what bodies are in the system just by looking at the spectral analysis scan. Which he almost nailed. You can tune the scanner to the body you want e.g. if you're looking for that elusive green fluorescent giants and quickly comb the system for them. I am sure those extra couple of seconds from your precious gametime will not be as detrimental as everyone tries to paint it.

 

[Kaltern]

I'm gobsmacked by the fact that people don't actually comprehend what has transpired on the livestream. FDevs explicitly said that they made a wager that Adam Bourke will recognize what bodies are in the system just by looking at the spectral analysis scan. Which he almost nailed. You can tune the scanner to the body you want e.g. if you're looking for that elusive green fluorescent giants and quickly comb the system for them. I am sure those extra couple of seconds from your precious gametime will not be as detrimental as everyone tries to paint it.

Unfortunately, these 'people' seem to WANT to misunderstand the changes. I can't put my finger on it exactly, but even though the livestream has CLEARLY shown the various complaints about speed, efficiency and visual accuracy are all VASTLY improved, they choose to argue against it. I can only conclude they simply did not watch the stream, have read various posts and concluded that it is crap, and therefore are putting arguments across that are highly inaccurate.

Watch the whole livestream before you lay down silly arguments chaps - you'll find you will type less.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Some people don't seem to have grasped this. But they will after several thousand repeats.

You dont turn your ship at all with the new system. Talk about not grasping things...

 

[Iskariot]

The current system goes like this:

1. Jump into the system
2. Hold down your keybind to start the scan/maneuver for fueling if you are going to
3. Scan completed, pull up the system map
4. Make a decision on whether or not to invest more time on the system
5. Take other actions in system or plot course and jump out

The new system, if I understand it correctly, works like this:

1. Jump into the system
2. Hold down your keybind to start the scan/maneuver for fueling if you are going to
3. Scan completed, you now know more about the primary star
4. Activate the analysis system, manually maneuver your forward only facing sensor onto each body individually, performing a full scan on it to determine what it is
5. Make a decision on whether or not to invest more time on the system
6. Take other actions in system or plot course and jump out

While the write up of the two sequences is almost identical, the new system requires that you scan EVERY body in the system BEFORE you can make an informed decision on whether the system is even worth additional activity.

In effect, Frontier has removed the ability to make a quick decision and replaced it with what is going to be another round of repetitive, boring game play. I say this because, once you master the technique, it will become cumbersome. While you are learning it, it may or may not be entertaining, but doing it over and over again is not going to provide excitement for most people after the first hundred times.

Worse than that, statistically, the majority of that scan time is going to be used to look at objects that are not worth the time because you will still need to scan bodies which are not landable to determine that they are not landable.

No matter how impressive a skill set you develop in reading the scanner, this is not going to be a faster process for making a decision on whether the system is worth further investigation. Consider a system with multiple stars with subsystems of small, non-landable moons and planetoids. You could spend a lot of time on that system only to conclude that it was an exercise in futility.

Added to that is the idiotic notion that I need to point the nose at everything as if I am using a FLIR instead of a sensor suite that can scan in all directions when it is dealing with starships but cannot see system bodies unless they are directly in front of it. Oh, wait, it can see them persistently once you have scanned them, which means the internal logic isn't consistent.

In summary, while the mechanics for in depth MAPPING seem to be worthwhile, I feel the value of the new scanning system is going to be negative because it takes choice away from the player and puts in an procedural/RNG mechanic.

I don't care for "faster".
I want cool space exploration gameplay and the new mechanic delivers, while the old mechanic made me feel like a honking truck driver.

The problem with the way FDev develops the game is that people get used to rudimentary, uninteresting mechanics and want to keep them because they are "fast".
But "fast" does not make a good space sim.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Unfortunately, these 'people' seem to WANT to misunderstand the changes. I can't put my finger on it exactly, but even though the livestream has CLEARLY shown the various complaints about speed, efficiency and visual accuracy are all VASTLY improved, they choose to argue against it. I can only conclude they simply did not watch the stream, have read various posts and concluded that it is crap, and therefore are putting arguments across that are highly inaccurate.

Watch the whole livestream before you lay down silly arguments chaps - you'll find you will type less.

Not entirely. There is one specific case or type where explorers get everything they need instantly. That is now gone. FD posted yesterday in a similar topic, explaining they were aware of it. However, they identified many types of explorers and the new system is better for all but one.

In a nutshell, they decided to focus on increasing depth and gameplay for most at the expense of convenience for some. Which means for the next few months those some will start identical topic after identical topic. It always happens, with any change.

The sole difference is that this time FD said expicitly they already considered it, and went with the new proposal on the grounds that you simply cant please everyone.

 

[CmdMarty]

Lol its the initial scan (honk) that people are worried about not the other new stuff probes ect. It like going backwards in tech by taking more time to start the process. The graph gameplay is generic at best just give us the 3d orrery map with positions of potential objects to scan or explore further but a graph no thanks.

 

[TheSisko]

Or, maybe they are shifting the reason for exploration, not how we actually do it.

Currently the "excitement" comes from opening the system map and seeing that you are in a system worth exploring, now they are moving the excitement over to checking to see if the system actually IS worth exploring.

Columbus didn't land on the shores of America and take a quick scan to decide if it was worth his time, he actually had to explore to it.

TLDR; you now have to explore what you have, to see if its worth further exploring. Thats the point of exploration.

Repped. I'd double-rep you if I could.

Explorers actually explore. I really hope Frontier stick to their guns and don't turn this system upside down for the System Map Glancers. The new system will offer all the info available now from the system map.

 

[knowles2]

They should have just remove the honk all together.