Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

[Defacto]

If trading/mining/even smuggling is trivial and risk-free, it feels like a huge affront when someone comes along and pirates/blasts you. What the... that's my time! How dare you!

But if traders/miners were given proper protection in high-security systems and were facing proper risks in low-security systems, I think things would be different. Player pirates would just be an addition to an already existant risk environment - probably more unpredictable and dangerous than pirate NPC's, but the same type of risk!
Here's a reward for playing in open - being able to team up and cover each other's backs. That should be the reward for playing in wings, by the way - trade dividends should not exist, because they should not be a necessary feature.

 

[wrmiller]

Playing in wings requires that I play when and only when someone else is willing/able to play. No thanks. How about NPC wings?

 

[Alsteif]

If trading/mining/even smuggling is trivial and risk-free, it feels like a huge affront when someone comes along and pirates/blasts you. What the... that's my time! How dare you!

But if traders/miners were given proper protection in high-security systems and were facing proper risks in low-security systems, I think things would be different. Player pirates would just be an addition to an already existant risk environment - probably more unpredictable and dangerous than pirate NPC's, but the same type of risk!
Here's a reward for playing in open - being able to team up and cover each other's backs. That should be the reward for playing in wings, by the way - trade dividends should not exist, because they should not be a necessary feature.

An in game reason for piracy to work would be great. But as long as its easier for People to play in solo/PG, i think they would still do it. Unless you add something special to open-play.
Of course, player-to-player interactions could bring some to open, possibly. They dont do that now tho.

 

[GreySix]

Pucker factor is something we military types sometimes refer to when in combat or combat training. For example, as a gunner on an MRAP in Mosul I was always on edge and hyper-alert, scanning constantly for threats. Some of that carried over for a short time, when I redeployed back to the States.

While that can only be simulated to a certain point in a video game, some folks like the pucker-factor in gaming, and those folks seek the cat-and-mouse piece with other players in-game - even if they're usually playing the role of the mouse.

When I'm PvP'ing, I prefer the role of the fox, stalking prey and striking them at times and location of my own choosing. If I'm hauling stuff, exploring, or mining, not so much.

Thankfully, Frontier gives us an option - and that's a good thing.

 

[Alsteif]

Pucker factor is something we military types sometimes refer to when in combat or combat training. For example, as a gunner on an MRAP in Mosul I was always on edge and hyper-alert, scanning constantly for threats. Some of that carried over for a short time, when I redeployed back to the States.

While that can only be simulated to a certain point in a video game, some folks like the pucker-factor in gaming, and those folks seek the cat-and-mouse piece with other players in-game - even if they're usually playing the role of the mouse.

When I'm PvP'ing, I prefer the role of the fox, stalking prey and striking them at times and location of my own choosing. If I'm hauling stuff, exploring, or mining, not so much.

Thankfully, Frontier gives us an option - and that's a good thing.

Absolutely! As i stated at the beggining of the post, i dont dislike pvp. And i can See why People May, want to be the hunter. It would be fun for me as Well.
The problem is, what about the prey? The prey-side of the game play is lacking. There is no reason for a Player to be a prey.

 

[Morbad]

There is no reason for a Player to be a prey.

Because they are accepting of that sort of gameplay, or at least the possibility of it.

There doesn't have to be any other reason; if that isn't enough then they can stay out of Open.

 

[Old Duck]

Some people like a challenge (thus the popularity of the Souls games), other people don't (thus the popularity of Solitaire). I'm happy to give anyone a proper piracy challenge who is looking for it! You ain't been pirated until you've been pirated by the Duck

 

[Morbad]

I'm happy to give anyone a proper piracy challenge who is looking for it! You ain't been pirated until you've been pirated by the Duck

CMDR's smuggler corvette is ready!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Problem with open is that you never know who is going to come after you. Is it going to be someone who is just out to blow you up for the lulz or is it going to be an actual pirate.

Its an online game, so you get allsorts.

If i knew it would be just pirates, then i'd be fine with it. But there are some types of people i just don't want to play with. Thankfully FD allow us to choose who we play with.

Unfortunately for the pirates, this means the presence of gankers/griefers results in less targets for them.

What boggles my mind though is how when it comes to forum debate, you'll usually find the pirates on the side of the griefers/gankers, perhaps because they see the debate as being a PvP vs PvE one, when in reality they should be decrying the antics of the griefers/gankers as ruining their chances of finding targets.

I am willing to say that if it wasn't for the G/Gs (got to abbrievate it somehow - if i say just griefer or ganker to mean both, then some pedant will make a debate of it) then you'd see a whole lot less combat logging as well with piracy attempts.

 

[Alsteif]

Some people like a challenge (thus the popularity of the Souls games), other people don't (thus the popularity of Solitaire). I'm happy to give anyone a proper piracy challenge who is looking for it! You ain't been pirated until you've been pirated by the Duck

In the souls games i do get a reward for my effort. In Elite i don't get anything in game, when i win against a pirate.
The challenge part is ok. But the pirate does get something for pirating me. But i said it many times already in this thread xd.

Wouldn't it make the experience better, if both sides had a reason to try it?

 

[Morbad]

Problem with open is that you never know who is going to come after you.

How is that a problem?

If i knew it would be just pirates, then i'd be fine with it.

If I thought Open would just be pirates, I'd have a huge problem with such an absurd and arbitrary constraint.

I click Open because I want the unrestricted experience, where my CMDR can encounter other CMDRs, any other CMDRs, whose players are willing to follow the rules of the game.

I'm not looking for the Elite: Dangerous Piracy-only mode, where the only way other CMDRs can interact with mine are as immersion defying examples of a profession even more lacking in context than ganker, attempted murder hobo who only targets victims that cannot actually die, or wandering troupe of criminally violent asylum escapees.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If there were anarchy systems (in open) that had something unique I wanted to mine, I think it would be cool to hire 'protection' in order for me to do it.

To me at least there should be strong economic factors that drive people- right now traders and miners are 'food' because there is no onward chain and everyone can happily kill anyone else. In my hypothetical example though, the same traders and miners would be the rich boys buying protection to get richer, so it inverts the situation and creates need that drives the game through simple forces. Since none of that exists, we have the situation where nothing has context, careers mean nothing and a ganker can keep afloat because money is plentiful.

 

[Alsteif]

How is that a problem?



If I thought Open would just be pirates, I'd have a huge problem with such an absurd and arbitrary constraint.

I click Open because I want the unrestricted experience, where my CMDR can encounter other CMDRs, any other CMDRs, whose players are willing to follow the rules of the game.

I'm not looking for the Elite: Dangerous Piracy-only mode, where the only way other CMDRs can interact with mine are as immersion defying examples of a profession even more lacking in context than ganker, attempted murder hobo who only targets victims that cannot actually die, or wandering troupe of criminally violent asylum escapees.

And thats a very good aproach. Open of course doesnt mean piracy/ganking Only. In fact, mostly - space is empty.

The topic here is piracy, tho, that May be why he was focused on pirates and gankers, as they are a part of it.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Running away from them is funny. Taunting them in chat later is funnier.

Running away again has seen me make a few rage quit LOL.

There's a reason I like flying small "useless" ships.

Because they're not useless.

 

[DaggerSnake]

And thats the enigma. Open should create food chains with the rich traders and miners feeding money for protection, or being leeched by pirates.

In this situation ganking would eventually bankrupt people, because you are not plying a trade- in my example if fuel, repairs, ships etc were hard to get everything would balance.

That is how I imagine everyone thought things could be. In the end it's just bad game design. I think that OPEN play should certainly have a balance of risk vs reward.

Piracy has no meaningful context in the game at all. Piracy is about people with less, taking from people with more because it's easier or more fun. The people with more should be willing to take risk to get even more. The game world has no mechanics to support that. Everyone can be a multi billionaire in a couple days. It's ridiculous and I can't believe it was never addressed.

 

[Alsteif]

That is how I imagine everyone thought things could be. In the end it's just bad game design. I think that OPEN play should certainly have a balance of risk vs reward.

Piracy has no meaningful context in the game at all. Piracy is about people with less, taking from people with more because it's easier or more fun. The people with more should be willing to take risk to get even more. The game world has no mechanics to support that. Everyone can be a multi billionaire in a couple days. It's ridiculous and I can't believe it was never addressed.

Like most things in Elite.
It gets added. And left to rot ~.

But Yes.
I also can't understand people who don't have a problem with that...

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

In the souls games i do get a reward for my effort. In Elite i don't get anything in game, when i win against a pirate.
The challenge part is ok. But the pirate does get something for pirating me. But i said it many times already in this thread xd.

Wouldn't it make the experience better, if both sides had a reason to try it?

It is pretty immanent in the pirate to prey relation that the pirated faction not only doesnt get anything but loses.

 

[2Karl]

So imagine - you mine for an hour (it's even worse, if you don't like mining), and now some guy wants you to give it up?

Why would you spend an hour doing something you don't like?

 

[Alsteif]

It is pretty immanent in the pirate to prey relation that the pirated faction not only doesnt get anything but loses.

Of course! I dont mean, that the pirated fellow should gain something when he looses. I mean, that the pirated fellow should get something:

• Either by playing in open and getting exposed to the risk of being pirated;
• or when They win against the pirate.

Right now, you get nothing.

 

[Maolagin]

Because they are accepting of that sort of gameplay, or at least the possibility of it.

There doesn't have to be any other reason; if that isn't enough then they can stay out of Open.

Exactly! At a certain point I suspect some players take to playing Open for the same reason that a handful take to ganking - because they've gotten good at the game, gotten a bit bored, and want a higher challenge level.

There are other reasons too of course. Some folks like meeting other players in busy systems - although the addition of the all-modes System Chat mitigates the need for that a bit. If you're planning to wing up with people who aren't all in the same PG, then Open is required. And frankly, I suspect the great bulk of players in Open are there simply because it's the first option in the menu and they just wanted to jump into the game without thinking about modes at all.