Why is Combat so Boring?

When I fight, my main goal is not to joust. I break the 'take 10 steps, turn, and fire' from the encounter. Take some time to digest this post. Truesilver is a true iCourier artist, and the advice included could be the answer you seek.

THANK YOU!

It all clicked now. Forward and Backward MANEUVERING THRUST. I never even realized that was a thing. Honest. I always thought forward and back throttle were all we had for those directions. Horrible of me, but true.

Now, I mapped Forward and Back Maneuvering Thruster buttons to my HOTAS throttle, and...my god its a WORLD of difference. That iCourier - the one with the Engineered Performance thrusters, That I was having trouble flying against lowly Viper IV's - absolutely DANCES now. Its like a ballerina with lasers and an attitude problem.

This was the missing piece. I always wondering how people did those on a dime turns. The sliding sideways and tail walking their ship right under an enemy. But I never could make it work. And now I know: Its because I was missing an absolutely crucial piece of the maneuvering puzzle.

Thanks for this. Very much appreciated yeah.


Love it. You can't out manouver a viper IV with a courier, but I can dance around a player FDL with a corvette. Maybe the reason combat sucks is because you suck.

That said the ttk does get stupidly high when you move to the bigger ships, but that's why you fly in wings and have ships with dedicated roles.

Yeah, see above. Just took my iCourier up against a couple of Viper IV's, a Viper III and even a Vulture. The "highly maneuverable" Vulture...never stood a chance. I never saw anything the whole fight EXCEPT his thrusters. Stayed on his six the whole, very brief, fight, hammering at his Power Plant.

This ship is absolutely incredible now. And all I needed was a little practice adding one more thrust type to the maneuvers I had already practiced.

$1.1 Million in Bounties. Fifteen minutes. Only time I lost my first ring of shields, was practicing with rocks. Ships could not keep me in their line of fire long enough for anything else.

So yeah. Combat's fixed now. For me, anyway. Thanks again everyone.

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When I fight, my main goal is not to joust. I break the 'take 10 steps, turn, and fire' from the encounter. Take some time to digest this post. Truesilver is a true iCourier artist, and the advice included could be the answer you seek.

Love it. You can't out manouver a viper IV with a courier, but I can dance around a player FDL with a corvette. Maybe the reason combat sucks is because you suck.

That said the ttk does get stupidly high when you move to the bigger ships, but that's why you fly in wings and have ships with dedicated roles.

to add to this - i fly a 3 frags speed courier... that's timed and fine tuned jousting ... zoom in, frag them, sitting out of their firing arc, fly away...

or i fly a missile cobra mkIII with a longrange beam .... fly evasive, eat their shields, and than finish them off quickly.

in many cases a different outfitting forces you to fly differently.

also, i tend to outfit my ships very lightweight - in most ships i have no chance to facetank.

Are Seeker Missiles worth it? Or any other ones? Always wondered whether they would be worth the cost. Thanks.
 
THANK YOU!

It all clicked now. Forward and Backward MANEUVERING THRUST. I never even realized that was a thing. Honest. I always thought forward and back throttle were all we had for those directions. Horrible of me, but true.

Thanks for this. Very much appreciated yeah.

I am always happy to pass on some of the wisdom shared with me. But, be sure to thanks Truesilver for breaking it down and writing it up for all of us to gain from. Search his name on these Forums and you will find a library of information and advice that can't but help all who take it in.
 
Are Seeker Missiles worth it? Or any other ones? Always wondered whether they would be worth the cost. Thanks.

of course, if you don't mind rearming!

- the missiles have the same size, no matter the missile rack. even on a small hardpoint they do good damage.

- they have splash damge - they are great to strip targets of chaff .... or thrusters ... or weapons.

- on small, manouverable ships where you get close, you might want to use dumbfires. seekers on the other hand are great to shoot enemy fighters, or eagles with slower, or less manouverable ships... on my courier and dbs i run dumbfires (if i don't run 3 frags on my courier, or smal cannons on my dbs), on my cobra, AspE and conda seekers, if i run missiles.... on my mining corvette seekers... you get the picture.
 
I'm not the biggest fan of the game but combat is one thing that I don't find boring.

It's usually fraught and exciting, especially as I'm not a skilled fighter-pilot.
 
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It all clicked now. Forward and Backward MANEUVERING THRUST. I never even realized that was a thing. Honest. I always thought forward and back throttle were all we had for those directions. Horrible of me, but true.

I you like it and finished mastering it, try adding side and up/down thrusting to the mix. Also, try the ICourier with all fixed guns. The outer pods are a bit far away from the center, but still close enough to hit medium/large targets with all three guns.

Last but not least, try one or even two plasma accelerators, preferably overcharged. It always makes me smile, when I land a double Plasma hit on a target passing by. So much damage in one/two shots, so much pain for the target (I imagine the targets cockpit suddenly bursting a lot of sparks).
 
I am always happy to pass on some of the wisdom shared with me. But, be sure to thanks Truesilver for breaking it down and writing it up for all of us to gain from. Search his name on these Forums and you will find a library of information and advice that can't but help all who take it in.

I will lok\ok that info up. Its been helpful so far. Its a different experience altogether.


of course, if you don't mind rearming!

- the missiles have the same size, no matter the missile rack. even on a small hardpoint they do good damage.

- they have splash damge - they are great to strip targets of chaff .... or thrusters ... or weapons.

- on small, manouverable ships where you get close, you might want to use dumbfires. seekers on the other hand are great to shoot enemy fighters, or eagles with slower, or less manouverable ships... on my courier and dbs i run dumbfires (if i don't run 3 frags on my courier, or smal cannons on my dbs), on my cobra, AspE and conda seekers, if i run missiles.... on my mining corvette seekers... you get the picture.

Going to have to try some missiles soon. Might be fun. Especially against larger targets, once shields are down.


I you like it and finished mastering it, try adding side and up/down thrusting to the mix. Also, try the ICourier with all fixed guns. The outer pods are a bit far away from the center, but still close enough to hit medium/large targets with all three guns.

Last but not least, try one or even two plasma accelerators, preferably overcharged. It always makes me smile, when I land a double Plasma hit on a target passing by. So much damage in one/two shots, so much pain for the target (I imagine the targets cockpit suddenly bursting a lot of sparks).

Thanks!

That was the plan. Start back with my old Gimballed stand-buys, and get really accustomed to flying like this. Once I am more comfortable with it, I plan to add at least a Railgun, it not an Accelerator. I could have used an Accelerator earlier against a Clipper, though admittedly, I had System Security help on that one. Would have been handy for the Vulture too though, especially since System Security didnt show up until his hull was at 10% - not that he could turn with me.

Any weapon that makes combat more brief and lets me move on to another target more quickly is a positive, in my book.
 
Glad you found it out.

IMO, don't bother too much with Flight Assist Off in a furball. Use the pitch, roll, yaw and rudder axes of your thrust vector to override the main throttle's "move forward at this speed" to pirouette around the target with your nose at it. Spin an axial orbit to manage defensive flight, little use against gimbals, though, but not all NPCs use them. And if you separate, use the boost to close up as soon as possible.

And one last tip from an old space sim pilot, learn to let go of the target on occasion. Work out where they're going, orient to that point and damp down your speed and you'll find that by losing your target for a while,you now land yourself on the tail of the target going exactly where you're pointing and they have to break hard and slow to get away whilst you just have to slow down and open up a track and orient again where they're breaking to to nullify their antics.

The problem with all this is you need to put a LOT of hours into it so you don't even think what you're doing,you don't even realise it. Think of how you catch a fly ball in cricket or baseball. You don't work out the parabolic trajectory, you "know" without calculation where you need to stand, where you need your hands, when to retract them to reduce the impact and prevent the ball from breaking out of your clasp.

Space sims (and to a lesser extent, flightsims) need that level of comprehension at the instinct level to play at its best.

Cut back when you're buying a commode to play the game on, though. That's a step too far.
 
Combat does need a full rebalance.

I wonder, and this depends on the specific mechanics, if doing something to change the old (cobra only) 3-bar shield thing. Smaller ships like the sidewinder use two bars. Empty both bars, and you're down to hull. Midsize like the Cobra and Asp use 3. Large ships like the Anaconda up use 4 (or 5 and have a few more big mid size ships use 4?).

That means for the same strength, there's less invested power per shield bar, so there's less needed for the bigger ships (and more for the smaller ones) to reboot their shields on one bar.

Against Torps, can ship weapons target them? If not, and you have turrets, those could be prioritised to do torp shelling. Alternatively, seeker missiles could be fired off to do the job. If you don't defend against them, then there's nothing you can do to counter torpedoes, and therefore they SHOULD be a very heavy threat. Makes you plan your hardpoint and slot selection and risk choosing wrong.
 
Just an endless joust. That's it. Forever grinding down enemy shields while we fly head on at each other and then circle back. Using FA off on a Courier with performance drives and still getting out maneuvered by a Viper IV. Not that it matters; as a game play activity its an awful experience.

I am just wondering WHY its so bad. Do ships really need all this shielding to grind through? I feel like Medium weapons are worthless against even small and medium ships...making what should be a brief, explosive, adrenaline fueled experience into an absolute slog.


Its not only the Shielding.
Its honestly said the lack of Options for Combat.


All Ships Shielded pretty Strong
All Ships have Frontal Weaponry
All Ships can carry Gimballed Weapons and Turrets
All Ships are pretty much Immune to Critical Hits
All Ships are Vertical Turners.
All Ships got extensively Sturdy Modules which are hard to Destroy even by several Direct Hits.
All Ships are weak for any Ship making em useless.
All Ships use the same Resistances for Shields and have the same Energy Handling

Moreover.
Rockets are very Weak and very easy to Dodge.
Torpedos are even more useless cause they are even less likely to hit and on top dont deal anywhere close the Damage they would need to Deal.
Which means that everyone uses Lasers and Guns.


From the small Eagle to the Enormous Federal Corvette. ALL Ships have only one Method of Combat Available to them. Which is Jousting to Point your Front at the Enemy.


The Reason why Freelancer was so Enticing in Combat despite having much less Quality and an much worse Flight Sim. Was because there was much more Action in it.

A Few Hits could Clip off your Wing or Disable your Weapons or other Parts.
This was more Action Loaded. But the Biggest Reason why Freelancer Combat was more Enticing. Was because it allowed for Different Playstyles.

Thanks to Shield Breaking Weapons and Rockets/Torpedoes doing Tremendous Damage. You could Play Jousting as well as Turnfighting.
You could go for Destroying the Enemy by Continues Fire from Lasers which Destroy the Shield and then the Hull.
Or by Disabling the Shield with Weapons that do hardly any Damage to the Hull but can take down the Shields very fast. And then use Rockets which deal almost no Damage to Shields but can Destroy the Hull in Seconds.
This allowed some Shifts in the Style of Playing and this also meant that you had to Cope with different Playstyles which then again meant that you had different Setups to Cope with them.


Elite has Tremendous Potential. But is currently not using it all. Because Combat in Elite is such a One Trick Pony that doing anything else makes no sense.


1.
Turrets and Gimballed Weapons should have the same Damage as their Counterparts but should Require more Energy than the Fixed Weapons in Exchange.
this would mean that Bigger Ships with Abundance of Energy could use Turrets and thus Fight Sideways rather than out Front.

(This serves to allow different Playstyles which will move the Game away from the "Only Jousting" as it will give Players which have no Intention to Joust at all but will try to stay Close with their Sides)

2.
Ships should get different Weapon Slots which are Set to a Certain Weapon Type and to an certain Direction.
Not have all Slots being Frontal and all being Multi Purpose.
An Light Fighter should have Frontal Slots for Fixed or Gimballed Weapons.
An Heavy Fighter should have for example. Frontal Slots for Fixed or Gimballed Weapons and an Rear Turret Slots.
Transports should have Turret Slots all around and one Front Slot for Fixed or Gimballed (Mining Laser)
An Corvette should have mostly Turret Slots Big Weapons on the Center being able to Hit both Sides and smaller on the Sides covering one Side of the Corvette.

(This as well serves to bring about different Playtyles. Because Players will be able to opt for different Builds of Ships.)

3.
Rockets and Torpedos need an Tremendous Damage Buff.
They should be able to really deal alot of Damage with a Single Hit below the Shields.

(This is the most Importand bit. It allows to actually move for different Decisions on how to Kill Enemies and what Enemy you want to Focus at. If your Targeting Heavy Hull Ships its likely you should use Torpedoes while on Heavy Fighters Rockets might do the Job better. For Light Fighters Guns are non plus Ultra. It also means that Point Defense and ECM gets a new Reason to be there.)

4.
Modules need an massive Nerf of Hitpoints.
A Weapon which takes 1 or 2 Direct Hits should be gone for Good.
And Penetrating Hits which Hit a Module should cause pretty Significant Damage to that Module.
(Pls note the Core Modules like the Power Generator etc should not be as easy to Destroy. The Power Generator should be Heavily Armored and be almost Impossible to Penetrate as he is sitting in the Core of the Ship. The Thrusters should get a Buff here as well. Front the Start a Ship should have several Thruster Modules. And the Main and the Support Thrusters should be Seperate as well. So if one out of your 4 Main Thrusters is hit you would lose Acceleration. But not be Dead in the Air. If you lose all your Main Thrusters you should still be able to Turn around as your Support Thrusters are still there. I mean come on. The Anaconda has 2 Boxes with 4 Vents for Thrusters each Box. So why does it have only one Thrusters Module which upon Destruction renders the Ship 100% immobile ?)

(This most of all Serves to make Combat more Interesting. Having Weapons and other Modules being Disabled during Combat Adds an Tremendous thrill to the Battle if its something that happens regular. Currently as it takes forever to destroy a Module. Losing one is a death Sentence. You know you wont get back on the Enemy. But if its something that can be Archieved with a few Hits and which happens all the time. It becomes an Element of Combat and losing a Gun will be Dealt with rather than result in the Player thinking he has lost anyways.
Losing some Firepower here. Losing some Engine Power There. Shield getting Unstable or less Effective.
Right now its a 100% or 0% thing. The Module Works or it doesnt. Your either still in Battle or Good as Dead. Nothing enticing about that. Because you have the Feeling you can stop trying it makes no Difference anymore.
But if this was about crippling meaning that you might be in Battle to 70% or 50% or 90% or 30% etc etc this makes things Interesting instead because you know he likely also lost some Modules already. Your still in the Game and you might just Win out)

5.
Weapons should be radically Different in their Properties.
Some Weapons should be Super Effective on Shields.
Some should be Balanced.
and others Very Hull Destroying or very Penetrating to Hit Modules.

(this Serves to create a Setup of Playstyle. Go for a Balanced Build up good against Strong Shields. Or Go for Hull Heavy Setup which will have trouble Breaking Shields. But will defeat even the most Armored Hull. Or maybe use Shield Breakers and Rockets So you hardly do anything to the Hull with your Guns. But have the Enemy Shield Gone very Fast and then try to land a Hit with Rockets. Likewise protecting yourself from it by using Shield Boosters to Protect your Hull for very long. Or have lots of Point Defense so Rockets are hard to Score on you. Or how about Heavy Armor which will make a Balanced Setup Puke as he needs forever to get you down ?
Such differences make Combat Interesting and include a Tactical Element)



People want to Feel like what they are doing is having an Effect.
The reason why Combat in an small 2D Game like "Faster than Light" is way more enticing than Fighting in the 3D Super Graphics of Elite Dangerous. Is because your Hits really feel like they Count. They are actually doing something.

In ED most of the time a Fight is Practically Decided in the First 30% of the Engagement. A 10 Minute Fight is pretty much Decided in the First 2-3 Minutes.
Thats why it feels so Incredible Dull.
 
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At the bottom of the Circle Strafing guide there is a link to the next stage in the chain: Using Fixed Weapons ++ Truesilver’s Top Tips, No.2 [Beginner’s Guide, Courier v FdL PvP vid] I told you this guy has the goods.

Found Truesilver's YouTube Channel and Subscribed. Left a Thank You there as well. Top Notch videos. Complete destroying an FDL in a Courier. Wow.


Glad you found it out.

IMO, don't bother too much with Flight Assist Off in a furball. Use the pitch, roll, yaw and rudder axes of your thrust vector to override the main throttle's "move forward at this speed" to pirouette around the target with your nose at it. Spin an axial orbit to manage defensive flight, little use against gimbals, though, but not all NPCs use them. And if you separate, use the boost to close up as soon as possible.

And one last tip from an old space sim pilot, learn to let go of the target on occasion. Work out where they're going, orient to that point and damp down your speed and you'll find that by losing your target for a while,you now land yourself on the tail of the target going exactly where you're pointing and they have to break hard and slow to get away whilst you just have to slow down and open up a track and orient again where they're breaking to to nullify their antics.

The problem with all this is you need to put a LOT of hours into it so you don't even think what you're doing,you don't even realise it. Think of how you catch a fly ball in cricket or baseball. You don't work out the parabolic trajectory, you "know" without calculation where you need to stand, where you need your hands, when to retract them to reduce the impact and prevent the ball from breaking out of your clasp.

Space sims (and to a lesser extent, flightsims) need that level of comprehension at the instinct level to play at its best.

Cut back when you're buying a commode to play the game on, though. That's a step too far.

Thanks for the advice and the kind words. So far I'm in for a HOTAS and TrackIR, which make dogfighting far more practical than standard controls and a single, fixed point of view. But yeah...no buckets yet.

Fly safe!
 
Its not only the Shielding.
Its honestly said the lack of Options for Combat.

<snipped for brevity>

In ED most of the time a Fight is Practically Decided in the First 30% of the Engagement. A 10 Minute Fight is pretty much Decided in the First 2-3 Minutes.
Thats why it feels so Incredible Dull.

I don't think this is a reliable overview of what we have. The combat system in E|D, as I see it, is based around Dog Fighting. Not plodding broadsides, or directional weapons. It's about getting the most out of a ship through the flight mechanics. FD go to great lengths to make each ship feel different, and viable. But, the focus is on Flying. Getting your ship, and it's weapons in the correct position to defeat your opponent.
 
I don't think this is a reliable overview of what we have. The combat system in E|D, as I see it, is based around Dog Fighting. Not plodding broadsides, or directional weapons. It's about getting the most out of a ship through the flight mechanics. FD go to great lengths to make each ship feel different, and viable. But, the focus is on Flying. Getting your ship, and it's weapons in the correct position to defeat your opponent.

Nope.
Thats the Problem.

For a Game about Dogfighting. The Shields and Armor is too incredible High.

Do you know Warthunder ?
Imagine two Aircraft having Infinite Ammo and requiring roughly 1000-2000 Hits to Kill the Enemy rather than the 5-20 it currently requires.


Dogfighting only works if an Tactical Maneuver actually can Decide the Fight.
If being behind the Enemy for but 2-5 Seconds is enough to Kill the Enemy. Then Dogfighting is Enticing.

If this Game is about Dogfighting. Then this is exactly the Reason why its so Dull and Boring.
And thats also why its Decided in the First 20-30% of the Match.
Because once someone has an Sufficient Lead in Depleting the Enemy Shield and Hit Points. The Battle is more or less Decided. You just need to Continue doing the same thing over and over and over and over.


If you Reduced Shields and Hull to 10% of what it Currently is.
Dogfighting would be Fun.
Because being able to Outmaneuver the Enemy just once would be a Deciding Factor and might just Win your the Match.

But right now ?
What Dogfighting ?
There is no Dogfighting to be Honest.
If you got an more Mobile Ship and even Try to get around me I will throw out Flight Assist and Reverse Thrust so I can Fire at you Full Power.

You cant Kill me Fast anyways so I just need to throw System on 4 Pips and will tank out most of what your dealing with no Trouble until I swing around.
But when I turn on your you have to Turn away which means within seconds I will Force the Fight back into Jousting.

Its Jousting. Jousting and more Jousting.
there is no meaning to a Contest of Getting your Weapons into Correct Position when this Position is exactly the same for all Ships and thus can be Forced with the ever same Tactic Mate.
 
Nope.
Thats the Problem.

For a Game about Dogfighting. The Shields and Armor is too incredible High.

<snipped for brevity>

Its Jousting. Jousting and more Jousting.
there is no meaning to a Contest of Getting your Weapons into Correct Position when this Position is exactly the same for all Ships and thus can be Forced with the ever same Tactic Mate.

We have completely opposing views. I'll leave it at that.
 
We have completely opposing views. I'll leave it at that.

It looks that way.
But as I said mate.

Imagine War Thunder. Just that both Aircraft have Infinite Ammo and can take 100 times the Hits.
Then you got Elite Dangerous :p

And thats the thing.

On War Thunder. In an Air Battle. My Heart is going Crazy. Because its incredible Exciting.
Any move could be the last. Yet any Hit could be the Victory.
Damage really Counts but you can Fight it.
Its making the Blood Boil because its really about Skill and Dogfighting.

But Elite Dangerous ?
Heck after the First Minute in the Fight I can practically tell if I will Win or Lose.
Meaning I could just Jump out right away because there is no meaning to even Continue.
Its Boring like Hell.


Of course anything is based on Personal Opinion :p
But I assume the OP shares my Opinion. ;)
 
Because the people who know nothing else other than to farm credits keep pressuring towards a linear progression, where credits translate directly to power.

And after that happens, they complain about how it's not fair for that progression to be diminishing and how bigger ships are not good enough.

And FD delivered and now everything is a behemoth of HP that you have to chip down with weapons that don't do damage unless you fly a behemoth yourself.

Fun isn't it?
 
Because the people who know nothing else other than to farm credits keep pressuring towards a linear progression, where credits translate directly to power.

And after that happens, they complain about how it's not fair for that progression to be diminishing and how bigger ships are not good enough.

And FD delivered and now everything is a behemoth of HP that you have to chip down with weapons that don't do damage unless you fly a behemoth yourself.

Fun isn't it?

I totally agree.

The vertical model has a lot of issues and hardly any benefits. Players can still experience progression through horizontal build diversity, but strong verticality makes much of it obsolete.
 
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If you want to See an Exciting Dogfight watch this one.
Because I can Guarantee you. During this Entire Battle he had with that other Aircraft there.
This Guy was breathing like he was Running a Marathon. His Heart Rate was likely above 100 while his Eyes were Fixed on that Screen.
Because any Salvo might be the Last.
Allowing the Enemy to get an Angle for Firing at you just Once. Might be the End if he Scores a Good Hit.

[video=youtube;VDxhlVahAys]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDxhlVahAys[/video]



Dogfighting is about Maneuvering.
As you said.
About getting your Weapons into the Correct Position to Kill the Enemy.
But if the Difficulty of getting the Weapons on Target is so easy that you constantly have Weapons on Target.
And if the Enemy has so much HP that you have to get the Weapons on Target several Hundred Times for a Single Kill.

Its no longer Thrilling. ;)
 
It looks that way.
But as I said mate.

Imagine War Thunder. Just that both Aircraft have Infinite Ammo and can take 100 times the Hits.
Then you got Elite Dangerous :p

And thats the thing.

On War Thunder. In an Air Battle. My Heart is going Crazy. Because its incredible Exciting.
Any move could be the last. Yet any Hit could be the Victory.
Damage really Counts but you can Fight it.
Its making the Blood Boil because its really about Skill and Dogfighting.

But Elite Dangerous ?
Heck after the First Minute in the Fight I can practically tell if I will Win or Lose.
Meaning I could just Jump out right away because there is no meaning to even Continue.
Its Boring like Hell.


Of course anything is based on Personal Opinion :p
But I assume the OP shares my Opinion. ;)

WarThunder is an arcade ww2 plane game, Elite: Dangerous is a space sim with 6 degrees of freedom. These are very different games and for combat to be the way you describe there would have to be many changes to the core game. If you wish for quick fights that are over in seconds and not minutes with an Elite feel I suggest you look at CQC.
 
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