Well im a trader and I get interdicted constantly by npc's. Very nasty npc's as in only Fur de lances and Anaconda's. Why does FD think I would like this. I hate hate hate it. The Game was great before patch now I cant stand it. Ill keep it short this patch if left as is has killed the game.
Engineers Why is Elite Failing (in my opinion)? Negative Feedback Loops - An Analysis
- Thread starter Colonel Kenney
- Start date
Clever. But you've missed the point.
ED was design flawed from the outset with the SC concept.
Nothing actually happens in occupied space. It has to happen through instances while traversing.
So you get MINIGAMES - like interdictions.
And when societies are at war, they don't encroach upon each others' bases - as armies and navies have done since the beginning of time.
They set up a CONFLICT ZONE. And agree to meet there to fight it out.
It is David Braven's creation, and is fundamentally, deeply, and fatally flawed. It can never be interesting.
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Khelder, it sounds like we have similar styles.
I don't play more than a few hours a week which means I don't really want to commit to something that precludes other options - been there and done that with my months long exploration trip.
My approach to the Engineers is going to be similarly casual because being in a hurry isn't going to help me much.
I'm selling all the commodities I get because I don't need them right now and keeping hold of them blocks choices.
My plan is to visit the engineers I can access when I'm nearly out of material space and see what is immediately available or that I'm just missing a commodity / material or two.
I figure that it doesn't really matter what the early upgrades are because they're a means to unlock the later ones and to unlock other engineers.
If they're beneficial in some way, I'll take them and maybe swap them into a stored ship.
I'll take a note of those missing commodities and materials and then keep an eye out for them, possibly spending a little more of my time doing the activity most likely to get them.
Similar thing with unlocking the engineers. I'll pick up the rares when I'm passing by and do a drop.
Eventually I'll unlock them, eventually I'll unlock higher tiers - maybe then I'll focus a bit harder on what I actually want for my ships and target that.
Until then, it's just one more choice of 'what do I do tonight?'
Is it a flawed implementation? Absolutely, but there were enough core improvements in 2.1 to keep me engaged.
I don't play more than a few hours a week which means I don't really want to commit to something that precludes other options - been there and done that with my months long exploration trip.
My approach to the Engineers is going to be similarly casual because being in a hurry isn't going to help me much.
I'm selling all the commodities I get because I don't need them right now and keeping hold of them blocks choices.
My plan is to visit the engineers I can access when I'm nearly out of material space and see what is immediately available or that I'm just missing a commodity / material or two.
I figure that it doesn't really matter what the early upgrades are because they're a means to unlock the later ones and to unlock other engineers.
If they're beneficial in some way, I'll take them and maybe swap them into a stored ship.
I'll take a note of those missing commodities and materials and then keep an eye out for them, possibly spending a little more of my time doing the activity most likely to get them.
Similar thing with unlocking the engineers. I'll pick up the rares when I'm passing by and do a drop.
Eventually I'll unlock them, eventually I'll unlock higher tiers - maybe then I'll focus a bit harder on what I actually want for my ships and target that.
Until then, it's just one more choice of 'what do I do tonight?'
Is it a flawed implementation? Absolutely, but there were enough core improvements in 2.1 to keep me engaged.
I don't hate it. I hate what they are doing to it!
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Well thought out and constructed argument. I also played WOW eventually for a year or two with my wife and I enjoyed my time as well. It was in the sweet spot the first couple years . Everquest yeah it was fun on the journey but the end game like you said was dead, and extremely frustrating when you'd lose levels. Paying for a rez!
This game does not have an end game and shouldn't. It has 400 billion stars and 10 years of content to add (if they'd actually make content other than asking the community to do it). BUT that being said the journey of exploration and excitement in a procedural world should be endless. Right now its not even 2% near where it should be. This was the grandest scheme ever thought up but so much of it was built on stuff outside the design it boggles the mind.
Engineers (other than all the other welcomed fixed and added features) is so bad it helps me forget how bad Powerplay and CCQ is..
Wow! read my mindsince Engineers landed, not ONE FDev post on the feedback, positive or negative
There have been a few posts but they've remained extremely quiet. They are probably disappointed and also working hard to fix it. Though it was a poor design (and I really called it I knew their MO I could probably dig up the posts showing exactly what they'd do) they are married to those bad design decisions - just like powerplay.
Lets hope (just like we did last year after powerplay) that they listen to the forums and decide to go in a different direction.
This is an interesting thread. I mostly agree with the OP, but at the same time I don't think Elite is a "bad" or "broken" game, just a misdirected one. It is getting more and more tedious though, and less fun due to increased empty grind mechanics coupled with punishing RNG outcomes. While I think the engineers was a good idea, it's implementation was not well executed. I almost think I'd be having more fun playing if I simply ignored the engineer grinds, and for a major feature to make me feel that way something is terribly wrong. But then I completely ignore Power Play too, and mostly ignore Arena. And I doubt multi-crew will add much for me to enjoy, nor will fighters seeing how I fly an Asp over 90% of the time I'm playing. So when it comes to major features in Elite being lackluster for me, well it's honestly become the norm rather than the unusual. Other than planetary landings the engineers is the first major feature added to the game since release that I can even remotely enjoy, and unfortunately the immense grind wall and punishing reward structure direly hampers that enjoyment. And much of what the OP talks about is the reasons why.
But even though the major features have consistently let me down, the game has gotten tons of small improvements and additions that have gradually made Elite today better than it was at release. The game is heading in the right direction, it's just sad that they keep building more foundations instead of working on the houses set on the foundations that already exist. Engineers is another foundation that holds lots of promise, but it needs to be fleshed out, built upon and improved, if it is going to be a fun and engaging game mechanic. And it certainly needs the grind toned down and the RNG factor lessened. Sadly though if history holds true that won't happen, fighters and passengers will be next instead of fixing what 2.1 brought us, just like Power Play is still incomplete and lacking, just like Arena is still separated and not incorporated. I really wish that FDev would just take a year and not add any new features but instead improve and flesh out what they already have right now:
- make bounty hunting a viable profession with tools and mechanics to aid in it
- add in real exploration game mechanics, including exploration missions, make deep space exploration an attractive, fun, and incentivized thing
- improve pirate tools to allow pirates to actively steal cargo without needing or even wanting to destroy the target ship
- improve trading tools so that players won't need external tools like Thrudd's and such, and cut down on the constant interdictions while in secure space!
- rework Power Play so that you don't need to make it a second job to have fun with it, and so that the entire galaxy doesn't hate you and turn against you just because you pledge to a power
- make CQC something incorporated into the game, with visible leaderboards and competitions and such, and with in game rewards that make playing CQC worthwhile
- rework Engineers to be less grindy and far less affected by RNG factors
Elite has so much untapped potential, but instead of adding even more potential it's time to tap what we already have IMHO.
But even though the major features have consistently let me down, the game has gotten tons of small improvements and additions that have gradually made Elite today better than it was at release. The game is heading in the right direction, it's just sad that they keep building more foundations instead of working on the houses set on the foundations that already exist. Engineers is another foundation that holds lots of promise, but it needs to be fleshed out, built upon and improved, if it is going to be a fun and engaging game mechanic. And it certainly needs the grind toned down and the RNG factor lessened. Sadly though if history holds true that won't happen, fighters and passengers will be next instead of fixing what 2.1 brought us, just like Power Play is still incomplete and lacking, just like Arena is still separated and not incorporated. I really wish that FDev would just take a year and not add any new features but instead improve and flesh out what they already have right now:
- make bounty hunting a viable profession with tools and mechanics to aid in it
- add in real exploration game mechanics, including exploration missions, make deep space exploration an attractive, fun, and incentivized thing
- improve pirate tools to allow pirates to actively steal cargo without needing or even wanting to destroy the target ship
- improve trading tools so that players won't need external tools like Thrudd's and such, and cut down on the constant interdictions while in secure space!
- rework Power Play so that you don't need to make it a second job to have fun with it, and so that the entire galaxy doesn't hate you and turn against you just because you pledge to a power
- make CQC something incorporated into the game, with visible leaderboards and competitions and such, and with in game rewards that make playing CQC worthwhile
- rework Engineers to be less grindy and far less affected by RNG factors
Elite has so much untapped potential, but instead of adding even more potential it's time to tap what we already have IMHO.
Yes. I will likely do as you're suggesting at some point too. I have visited The Dweller once, just to check out what the new settlement looked like. Very cool.
And as you say, the other improvements in 2.1 are good. Engineers doesn't really hold all that much interest for me. I get that some players want to personalise their ships. That can be a good thing. Mind you, I would have liked ship naming, more skins, custom decals, etc. What I do like is the improved missions. But there's still a long way to go. And this leads me to another gripe I have...
I just feel that there is so much missed opportunity.
We have this massive galaxy and now, with Horizons, thousands of amazing surfaces to explore, and it hardly gets used... other than for pretty screenshots.
Where are the search and rescue missions for ships that have ventured way outside the bubble? "We sent a guy out to check out X system and we haven't heard from him in weeks!"
Where are the surface missions that require actual search based on coordinates and terrain? "We know the ship went down on X. The last position reading we had was A°, B° and the heading was C°. That should help pinpoint the location." or "We know the ship went down on X. The last position reading we had was A°, B° so we'd expect the wreckage to be close to that area. The last communication we received said something about a massive crater. That's where I'd look." (and then actually have the target at a location that makes sense instead of just randomly jumping around on the surface)
I even wrote a post the other day about the possibility of bringing small sub-stories into the game which could have tie-ins to Engineer-like rewards.
I'm not saying these things would be easy. But I think they would add something more to the game than the usual go-here-and-collect-x-of-y scenarios.
^^^ This. There should be so much we could do with the sheer scope of this game. But we have... lasers that create more heat. Wonderful.
No. I'm being silly there. There are a huge amount of players that will get a lot of enjoyment from the mods. I'd just like to see some other things fleshed out as well.
The OP has a point in regards to Negative Feedback loops and if FDev don't want to keep alienating their user base to smaller and smaller numbers it would seem best to listen to constructive criticism.
Fd should give you a job. Very well put +1
The Engineers are not content as such. The Engineers gives you another reason to interact with the content with the game, and when the enginners doo their stuff to your ship, then it gives you an opportunity to interact with the content in a slighly different way. There is no gating of content.
This is 95% of my wishes for ED right there.
I thought this myself. That the mods are basically just tools to get other jobs done.
First (and this is probably a scary one), this installment of the Horizons season of content is call "The Engineers". This along with the tie-in, "Looting and Crafting", is the main delivery of the installment. I'm pretty sure that Frontier considers this (the
But it doesn't really matter what you call it. It's still gated. So the major focus of this installment is not immediately available to purchasers. Fortunately for me, I was more interested in the mission improvements, AI improvements, and bug fixes of 2.1.
In fact, it only really suits those who want to treat it as content. Yes, as I said before, I agree with MadDogMurdock - I'll probably take a look at it later and see if I can get anything by accident. But the casuals who would be keen to muck around with the mods just for fun are going to struggle with it. Also, the PvPers (and PvEers, I suppose) whose almost sole interest in the game is combat will be put off as well.
Anyone who wants to really delve into what the installment gave them has to commit to a chunk of time to jump through hoops. That's fine if that's what interests you. But it would seem that many would just like to use the mods as the tools that they probably should be and are frustrated with the requirements to get there.
It probably would have made a huge difference if it was something that you could slowly build up to without thinking too much (like earning credits). Storage might help a bit with that.
I think Elite Dangerous is very much like taking on a job, but it also depends on what path you take ingame. The only real feedback you're getting from playing is to be able to fly more. If that's your cup of tea, you'll love it.
Most players need something more to keep being hooked.
Since ED wont have endgame content, playing the game becomes tedious with no actual goals except for those you make for yourself.
I'm certain ED will evolve to something quite spectacular in the end, but the road leading to that is very long and frankly without any proof that it actually becomes a less tedious experience. Engineers kinda proves that.
This is why people are describing ED like we're grinding to get a bigger shovel to be able to grind more to get a bigger shovel. For many, grinding becomes the gameplay since players don't see the actual flying as the reward. So they stop playing. And goes to the forum and rants about it.
My point is that ED might need something more. Something interesting. 2.1 was a giant leap in the right direction and it needs a whole lot of the same stuff.
Thargoids will sure keep the players occupied for a while but killing off an endless stream of aliens will become tedious after a while too.
I think the OP has some great points.
Most players need something more to keep being hooked.
Since ED wont have endgame content, playing the game becomes tedious with no actual goals except for those you make for yourself.
I'm certain ED will evolve to something quite spectacular in the end, but the road leading to that is very long and frankly without any proof that it actually becomes a less tedious experience. Engineers kinda proves that.
This is why people are describing ED like we're grinding to get a bigger shovel to be able to grind more to get a bigger shovel. For many, grinding becomes the gameplay since players don't see the actual flying as the reward. So they stop playing. And goes to the forum and rants about it.
My point is that ED might need something more. Something interesting. 2.1 was a giant leap in the right direction and it needs a whole lot of the same stuff.
Thargoids will sure keep the players occupied for a while but killing off an endless stream of aliens will become tedious after a while too.
I think the OP has some great points.
I love flying in Elite. I love flying and driving around planets. I love Horizons for that.
Some grinding I can live with... because I can see how it fits (to me at least). I'll do some trade runs back and forth to raise some credits. I'll take simple delivery missions (if that's all they'll give me) to raise my reputation with a faction. Maybe that's a bit of a contradiction (with not being interested in Engineer tasks), but at least I can work towards things at my pace and generally get to see rewards (as well as different choices) along the way.
I've heard the "mile wide, inch deep" line thrown around plenty of times in the past. I've always assumed FD's development plan would be to build out sufficient breadth so that they can really do depth well. Unfortunately, I don't really see how Engineers really helped with that. Maybe it isn't their plan at all. I don't know.
I would really love to see more ways to connect with the galaxy and the people in it. I would love to see longer, branched, missions or tasks. I would love to be able to do things for people other than just faction representatives. I would love to have in-game conversations like this (the quick example I wrote here):
Bartender: "I’ve noticed you around here a fair bit recently. Been taking on some pretty shady missions for the Purple Raiders. Don’t worry. I won’t tell anyone."
Khelder: "What of it?"
Bartender: "Well… just something that came up the other day… thought you might be interested."
Khelder: "I’m listening."
Bartender: "Ok, look, this woman comes into the bar a couple of days ago. She was going on about her brother being taken by some pirates or something. She was looking for a hired gun but nobody seemed interested. You look like the kind of Commander who can handle yourself. I thought you might be able to…"
Khelder: "What? Go off on a rescue mission for this woman? What would I do that for?"
Bartender: *shrugs*
Khelder: "Where do I find her?"
Bartender: "I hear she’s planet-side. Schade Horizons. Think she’s got a job in Outfitting there."
Khelder: "Can’t hurt to talk to her I guess."
*** flys to Schade Horizons ***
Agnes: "What do you want?"
Khelder: "I hear you’re in a spot of trouble."
Agnes: "Not me. My brother. He’s been taken and I need someone to help. Would you do it? I can pay."
Khelder: "Pay? I doubt you have that kind of money."
Agnes: "Well, no. But I can offer other things. Your Asp there. I bet I could squeeze a bit more power out of those thrusters for you. I’ve done it before. Pilots Federation doesn’t like it. But I like to tinker."
Khelder: "More power? That could come in handy. What can you tell me about your brother?"
Agnes: "Lushertha A 6 a. Well, at least, that’s where they were. I’ve been out there. There are a couple of buildings. But they were surrounded by Skimmers. I couldn’t get close. These are the coordinates…"
Khelder: "Ok. I’ll take a look."
*** the mission continues... ***
Khelder: "What of it?"
Bartender: "Well… just something that came up the other day… thought you might be interested."
Khelder: "I’m listening."
Bartender: "Ok, look, this woman comes into the bar a couple of days ago. She was going on about her brother being taken by some pirates or something. She was looking for a hired gun but nobody seemed interested. You look like the kind of Commander who can handle yourself. I thought you might be able to…"
Khelder: "What? Go off on a rescue mission for this woman? What would I do that for?"
Bartender: *shrugs*
Khelder: "Where do I find her?"
Bartender: "I hear she’s planet-side. Schade Horizons. Think she’s got a job in Outfitting there."
Khelder: "Can’t hurt to talk to her I guess."
*** flys to Schade Horizons ***
Agnes: "What do you want?"
Khelder: "I hear you’re in a spot of trouble."
Agnes: "Not me. My brother. He’s been taken and I need someone to help. Would you do it? I can pay."
Khelder: "Pay? I doubt you have that kind of money."
Agnes: "Well, no. But I can offer other things. Your Asp there. I bet I could squeeze a bit more power out of those thrusters for you. I’ve done it before. Pilots Federation doesn’t like it. But I like to tinker."
Khelder: "More power? That could come in handy. What can you tell me about your brother?"
Agnes: "Lushertha A 6 a. Well, at least, that’s where they were. I’ve been out there. There are a couple of buildings. But they were surrounded by Skimmers. I couldn’t get close. These are the coordinates…"
Khelder: "Ok. I’ll take a look."
*** the mission continues... ***
Completely agree - I'm just tired of the repetitive whining now.
I'm pretty sure everyone who wants to, including me, has had their say on what's wrong with Engineers - FD can't possibly have missed it.
Well said, and for your other post.
It's only a grind if you're not having fun. If you're not having fun there are other options in E
to do - unlike it has to be said many other games. If you don't find those fun then you probably need to stop playing as you're likely to be wasting your time and time is finite. Im not trying to be flippant, just straight down the line.
The problem is that since everyone has differnent definitions of what a grind is,
and think that their definition is the right one, it makes for useless debates because
people argue on wether some part of ED gameplay fit the definition of a grind without
having first worked out a common definition.
My definition is : putting a reward behind a repetitive task with no variation.
and think that their definition is the right one, it makes for useless debates because
people argue on wether some part of ED gameplay fit the definition of a grind without
having first worked out a common definition.
My definition is : putting a reward behind a repetitive task with no variation.
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What we are seeing is the process of agile development. A MVP is produced which is delivered to the customer. They use it, then give feedback. The developers then update the application. The cycle is then repeated. Alternatively there is the big bang approach which according to the road map ED will be finished in 10 years time. What we get each time is a vertical slice 'something for everyone'
