Engineers Why is Elite Failing (in my opinion)? Negative Feedback Loops - An Analysis

[Ironwolf]

Problem is that with the way they made the RNGineers it seems as though they were never meant to be taken seriously. They're just a joke that nobody thinks is funny. I mean really: random chance for random material for random amount for a chance on rolling a random modification that might randomly be somewhat decent but randomly has just as high a random chance as being a random downgrade with an additional random chance at a random special and then try to play it off as it being a "black art"? And on top of that having the audacity to call that crafting?

We're not laughing FD...

Agreed. Have some rep.

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Checking Engineers. Wasn't 1.6, I played that a bit but left after an hour or two of playing. I came back just before Engineers and thought it was awesome it was after 2.0. Engineers adds something, I'm hoping it gets fleshed out a bit more since there is so much more to add there. I saw some engineers carried enhanced stuff to purchase but it was below my already equipped item.

But Engineers is far from causing this to fail. Plus expecting to run around and equip your ship with teh best evar weepons and thinking that's going to make you shred through swarms of targets, be realistic. There still needs to be a higher level of skill required and not how much you farm to get credits/materials to get teh best evar weepons and shields to win.

I think my idea of fun differs from yours a bit, happy for you.
For me, I think the current implementation of Engineers is too dumbed down, it lacks structure and real crafting.
Personally, I'd prefer Engineers to reflect what an Engineer actually does, manufacture to set specifications, not produce items with random specs.
If it was balanced correctly, like with set crafting templates, then NPC's can also have these ship modifications.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Who says it's not correctly designed and your perception of it is wrong?

Newbies will be getting invites alongside long term players so how can it be "next"? Surely that defines it as "alongside"

That upgrade path sounds grindy as hell to me - three times around the same missions and things? Our way it's different all the time?

I'm using the term "correctly" to denote that the RNG methods of the Engineers really doesn't fit in with the normal mission based system we have. My perception of it is that it is wrong, I can only give you my perception but what the Engineers have given us is a recipe, that includes a shopping list of items to get, then you roll the dice to see what upgrades you get. There's no gameplay and there's no skill, it's just do this, get this, hope to get lucky.

As to the term "next", I was using the phrase you used. Newbies will eventually get invites, I would assume once they get an invite they will want to investigate and visit and Engineer. So in that sense it is next, it's obviously not first.

Getting the same weapon 3 times could be grindy, but that's just one weapon class with 3 variants; that's the equivalent of getting one upgrade on your FSD on 3 different ships. At least with my other game there are activities that, at least in some way, make sense. Sure each FSD is a little different but how many materials, commodities, scans, etc. have you had to shop for to get those upgrades and hoped you got a good roll. With my other game I've completed many missions and quests to attain something I can be proud of since I had to work for it. All the Engineers is offering is shopping for the items on a recipe then rolling the dice in the hopes you get a good set of tweaks. I can carry my weapon with me into other missions and raids along with other players and they will know I worked hard for it. What can you do with the Engineers, brag about how many times you had to reroll to get a 45% optimized mass FSD?

 

[frostypaw]

I think that's kinda exactly the misunderstanding that's occurring - these weren't meant to fit in with the normal mission based system - these are side dishes to nibble at as you go along to add some spice.

I think the idea is there's no specific 'thing' so you amass parts and bits as you go doing the normal mission based system and your own errands and bits. From the sounds of it many are abandoning all or most of their normal play patterns to try and approach this as if they were missions, and we hit this point

 

[Ironwolf]

I think that's kinda exactly the misunderstanding that's occurring - these weren't meant to fit in with the normal mission based system - these are side dishes to nibble at as you go along to add some spice.

I think the idea is there's no specific 'thing' so you amass parts and bits as you go doing the normal mission based system and your own errands and bits. From the sounds of it many are abandoning all or most of their normal play patterns to try and approach this as if they were missions, and we hit this point

I'd guess that most people like the idea of pimping their ride, tweaking it a bit, or overhauling it completely.
I'd guess that the process to do this is what most people do not like.
There is no gameplay related to upgrading your ship, it is all find this, find that, and roll those dice.
To me there is no crafting involved, and no gameplay involved.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

I think that's kinda exactly the misunderstanding that's occurring - these weren't meant to fit in with the normal mission based system - these are side dishes to nibble at as you go along to add some spice.

I think the idea is there's no specific 'thing' so you amass parts and bits as you go doing the normal mission based system and your own errands and bits. From the sounds of it many are abandoning all or most of their normal play patterns to try and approach this as if they were missions, and we hit this point

Sorry, but I can't agree with the notion that the Engineer is a side dish to nibble on; synthesis is a side dish. Engineers is a major update and while I can see getting the items on your shopping list as you do other missions is better than grinding for weeks just to get a level 5 upgrade it's still just a shopping list. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing but it could be much better. Another poster reminded me that FD did want to implement more gameplay and missions into the Engineers but there were time constraints and complicated issues. I'm hopeful that FD will implement changes that will make the Engineers better by adding missions and gameplay.

What I can't understand is the defense of the current system. Why wouldn't you want to have the Engineer you work with give you activities that reward at least some of the materials rather than just simply doing his shopping for him? If it were up to me both methods of getting materials and scans would exist. Random searches, scanning, mining, and planetary scavenging wouldn't go away but missions and other activities could be added. That would give player different ways of interacting with an Engineer. I don't think FD will give up on the RNG final roll aspect and while I'd prefer to know what I was getting for my hard work, I can live with the uncertainty of that part.

 

[frostypaw]

It's just part of a .1 update not a season in itself and came alongside huge changes

IIRC what they said was making the engineers provide missions to get all the materials would take a long time, not that it was intended that way but they didn't have time.

And because to me this update seems to have misfired. What should have been a long slow process to look forwards to of little upgrades and opportunities here and there has been transformed into a mass-grind to the new level of meta and in the end it's just going to mean newbies will have to avoid all aggressive encounters with other players until they too have done the long grind asap to get to grade 5 on all their parts so they can compete at all.

Currently I can hold my own - by the looks of it in a month's time it'll be terrifying getting attacked by another cmdr not because of skill, but because their ship will be vastly more powerful just because I didn't partake in weeks of misery grinding to do it quickly

 

[Colonel Kenney]

This is a perfect example as to why this is all wrong.

TOP STORY on REDDIT Right now (Elite) - Guy grinded for 8 game hours of materials to get this.

 

[Jypson]

This is a perfect example as to why this is all wrong.

TOP STORY on REDDIT Right now (Elite) - Guy grinded for 8 game hours of materials to get this.

http://i.imgur.com/rOTDzbI.jpg

lordy-lordy, that would have been an uninstall-delete moment for me. I remember when I was convinced I had to grind out rank for the Corvette/Cutter. At the end of the grind I was able to purchase said ships. Can you imagine if you reached the end of that grind you were randomly given the option to buy the ship you want or get a free Eagle?

 

[frostypaw]

This is a perfect example as to why this is all wrong.

TOP STORY on REDDIT Right now (Elite) - Guy grinded for 8 game hours of materials to get this.

http://i.imgur.com/rOTDzbI.jpg

If I understand and read that correctly he'd already had a good roll at that level and is trying to get a better one and has failed.

Aren't the yellow figures in the middle your current spec, and the ends of the red/blue bars the range available within that mod?

If so then it appears on his last roll he got a middling result for optimised mass but a cracking roll on the other stats. So that previous roll was pretty good - the next one not so good.

If that's so then so what? Have I mis-read it?

Should each roll be better than the last is that what you're saying?

 

[Ironwolf]

If I understand and read that correctly he'd already had a good roll at that level and is trying to get a better one and has failed.

Aren't the yellow figures in the middle your current spec, and the ends of the red/blue bars the range available within that mod?

If so then it appears on his last roll he got a middling result for optimised mass but a cracking roll on the other stats. So that previous roll was pretty good - the next one not so good.

If that's so then so what? Have I mis-read it?

Should each roll be better than the last is that what you're saying?

Some of the words used here are: Roll. Try Again.
I think the randomness and repeated randomness says it all.

 

[Insomnia]

This is a perfect example as to why this is all wrong.

TOP STORY on REDDIT Right now (Elite) - Guy grinded for 8 game hours of materials to get this.

http://i.imgur.com/rOTDzbI.jpg

Wow..... That's . Plain . Make me wanna write an open letter lol.

 

[Ironwolf]

Didn't FDev say that they will look into this, an upgrade should be an upgrade, not a downgrade.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

91. Elite Dangerous 2,673 6,909 2,400,666

Lowest I've ever seen before in the history of ED (that I've seen) at this time of the day. 91! 2600 players!

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Should each roll be better than the last is that what you're saying?

No, not each roll, but there should be no range overlap between a level 3 and a level 5 upgrade. I can accept some overlap from a level 3 to a level 4 and from a level 4 to a level 5. It would be terribly disappointing to get an excellent roll on a level 3, then work towards a level 5 only to get a roll that's no better, or even worse than what you had at a level 3. The FSD increase range level 3 has an optimized mass range of 8% to 25% and the level 5 has a range of 15% to 44%. That is an overlap of 10 points, that gives you a pretty good chance of getting a downgrade going from level 3 to level 5. The way the ranges are setup you might as well skip from level 1 (3%-14%) to level 5 (15%-44%) and ignore the intermediate levels. Although there's still a minor chance that secondary effects will cause a slight downgrade even going from level 1 to level 5.

 

[frostypaw]

I agree about no or at least very little overlap - but the downsides change too, not just the upsides.

Didn't FDev say that they will look into this, an upgrade should be an upgrade, not a downgrade.

Well yes if you're going from Grade 4 to Grade 5, but if you're doing two rolls at Grade 5 then...?

 

[Tikigod]

This is a perfect example as to why this is all wrong.

TOP STORY on REDDIT Right now (Elite) - Guy grinded for 8 game hours of materials to get this.

I hope they included the little detail in their reddit post about the fact they were trying to roll a new modification on a item that already had received a high output modification roll?

As on a base piece of equipment the main benefit factor of a modification will always initially roll in the blue (though secondary effects can counteract that), it's only when you already HAVE a good modification roll applied that you can roll downgrades from the current MODIFIED value. The output will still be higher than base values for that module, but it won't necessarily be higher than the current MODIFIED value the module has.

It's a little detail you often see people skimp over when it makes for better dramallamaing to paint a picture that "xxx hours of grinding saw me with modules that were worse than before!".

When what they are really saying is "I already pimped out my module with really high stats on a modification roll, but then I wanted that extra 2% gain that I didn't quite hit last time so went grinding to roll again and the results were less than my previous modification roll!".... but that doesn't sound so good for the drama.

 

[foebits]

It doesn't matter either way. Why are we throwing dice instead of crafting or doing any engineering? That's the biggest issue.

 

[The Booty Peddler]

I hope they included the little detail in their reddit post about the fact they were trying to roll a new modification on a item that already had received a high output modification roll?

As on a base piece of equipment the main benefit factor of a modification will always initially roll in the blue (though secondary effects can counteract that), it's only when you already HAVE a good modification roll applied that you can roll downgrades from the current MODIFIED value. The output will still be higher than base values for that module, but it won't necessarily be higher than the current MODIFIED value the module has.

It's a little detail you often see people skimp over when it makes for better dramallamaing to paint a picture that "xxx hours of grinding saw me with modules that were worse than before!".

When what they are really saying is "I already pimped out my module with really high stats on a modification roll, but then I wanted that extra 2% gain that I didn't quite hit last time so went grinding to roll again and the results were less than my previous modification roll!".... but that doesn't sound so good for the drama.

Yes, he DID go over how the item already had a decent grade 3 roll. GRADE 3. He skipped 4 and rolled a grade 5 and got utter crap. Please don't even try to defend that bull.

 

[frostypaw]

Yes, he DID go over how the item already had a decent grade 3 roll. GRADE 3. He skipped 4 and rolled a grade 5 and got utter crap. Please don't even try to defend that bull.

If that was a grade 3 roll that's not "decent" that's "spectacular"

we can get more from the reddit:

There is considerable overlap in the ranges that can be rolled. The base range for a grade 3 is 8% to 25% improvement. A grade 5 is 15% to 44%.

On top of that his grade 3 is +30%, so he actually went over the normal cap by rolling a secondary effect, and was actually pretty much right on the money already for an average grade 5 roll. Roughly half of all grade 5 FSD upgrades will be worse than the grade 3 he already has.

but no let's stick to it's all broken. argue the ranges could be tighter perhaps, but that bull is easily defended already on that reddit

 

[The Booty Peddler]

If that was a grade 3 roll that's not "decent" that's "spectacular"

we can get more from the reddit:


but no let's stick to it's all broken. argue the ranges could be tighter perhaps, but that bull is easily defended already on that reddit

Were you under the impression people are saying this is a bug? Yes, the fact that ranges overlap from two grades away is bull.