Why is posting about a real human bounty considered shaming? Enlighten me!

[Agony_Aunt]

Personally, I'm not sure I've seen anyone saying the forum shouldn't be policed. The issue for me, and others clearly, is the lack of clarity and/or consistency in the arbitration. Same goes for the filter. Bum, butt, ass, , booty, patootie, tush, . I still find it funny that the redacted one in that list is the British synonym for backside - hearse minus the 'he'. This forum's filter is prejudiced against us Brits, even funnier when you consider how many us buggers are on here.

EDIT: Oh, look ' ' is fine. How about sodomise?
EDIT: I give up! 'Buggers' is fine, but singular? NOPE.

PS. Can someone ask the filter if it would like a copy of the OED? Seriously though. I get tired of guessing. Where's the filter list, so we know what to avoid. It's especially galling given how mature and friendly this forum is. Nef's point about GTA is more than spot on. (Would rep you Nef, but I'm all out)

To address your two points.

1) Yes, there is sometimes inconsistency in moderation. We all have our own interpretation of things, even the rules. FD could tighten the rules up, write pages and pages, at which point, nobody would ever read the rules (except forum rules lawyers looking for loopholes) because they would be impossible to always keep in mind. So we have best effort guidelines. How we work most of the time is when we are not sure about something, we consult with each other, and if necessary, escalate to a community manager (usually Brett or Zac) for guidance. It works well most of the time. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we can't consult with a community manager or even another mod, because of timezones or people being busy, and something warrant immediate action. But that's usually then handled by Brett later, who reviews what action was taken and determines if it was appropriate or not. Where necessary, he can reverse any punishment given. Then he will advise the moderator in question about where they went wrong.

2) The swear filter is an annoying but useful beastie. Not long ago we reviewed it, and mods could submit words they thought should be blocked. Naturally, we can't catch all, and sometimes unintended words get blocked (which i first joined the forums, flaps was a banned word, because it has a naughty meaning, but then it being banned made it hard to talk about certain aspects of aviation). So again, its a best efforts thing. If you see some words getting through that you think should be added to the filter, PM Brett about it or post about it in the forum feedback forum. Same goes for if you see a word that you think shouldn't be blocked.

Both elements are best effort things, where we aim for consistency, but there will be mistakes. What you can do as a regular user is report things when you think there has been a mistake. The only issue with this is, there is often a lot of chaff. Just like if you go into a prison, and ask the prisoners what they did, they will all answer they did nothing, they are innocent.

 

[iconoclypse]

To address your two points.

1) Yes, there is sometimes inconsistency in moderation. We all have our own interpretation of things, even the rules. FD could tighten the rules up, write pages and pages, at which point, nobody would ever read the rules (except forum rules lawyers looking for loopholes) because they would be impossible to always keep in mind. So we have best effort guidelines. How we work most of the time is when we are not sure about something, we consult with each other, and if necessary, escalate to a community manager (usually Brett or Zac) for guidance. It works well most of the time. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we can't consult with a community manager or even another mod, because of timezones or people being busy, and something warrant immediate action. But that's usually then handled by Brett later, who reviews what action was taken and determines if it was appropriate or not. Where necessary, he can reverse any punishment given. Then he will advise the moderator in question about where they went wrong.

2) The swear filter is an annoying but useful beastie. Not long ago we reviewed it, and mods could submit words they thought should be blocked. Naturally, we can't catch all, and sometimes unintended words get blocked (which i first joined the forums, flaps was a banned word, because it has a naughty meaning, but then it being banned made it hard to talk about certain aspects of aviation). So again, its a best efforts thing. If you see some words getting through that you think should be added to the filter, PM Brett about it or post about it in the forum feedback forum. Same goes for if you see a word that you think shouldn't be blocked.

Both elements are best effort things, where we aim for consistency, but there will be mistakes. What you can do as a regular user is report things when you think there has been a mistake. The only issue with this is, there is often a lot of chaff. Just like if you go into a prison, and ask the prisoners what they did, they will all answer they did nothing, they are innocent.

Thanks for the reply. The filter, as I agreed, is a necessary evil. But one man's ass is another man's ar$e, apparently (I hope this will be viewed purely in the light of the discussion and not filter-dodging for fun/to annoy.) Poor Nef having his name filtered and even station names in-game falling foul seems absurd. I appreciate all that you mods do and that things like 'best fit', timezones, and the sheer immensity of checking every post mean some material gets through, but I still find it ironic that in this atypically adult community we rely on such heavy and arbitrary filtering. Quite apart from which, as your example of flaps highlights, given that so many of us are Brits, there's next to nothing we can't make into an innuendo.
I am still in awe of buggers being fine, but the same word without the S isn't. Spot the difference 'Anytime I try to pirate an NPC he buggers off', 'Anytime someone tries to pirate me I        off.' Same word, same context, both used as a verb, yet you get to be Les Dawson with the latter. 'Every time I see that BLANK he tries to shoot me in the BLANK.'
Sigh.

 

[CMDR Nef]

Poor Nef having his name filtered

It's a wonky forum filter. My own name is not allowed, but is...[haha]

 

[brokedeaddog]

Both elements are best effort things, where we aim for consistency, but there will be mistakes. What you can do as a regular user is report things when you think there has been a mistake. The only issue with this is, there is often a lot of chaff. Just like if you go into a prison, and ask the prisoners what they did, they will all answer they did nothing, they are innocent.

Andy was innocent! (Movie ref, so chillax)

Thanks for the reply. The filter, as I agreed, is a necessary evil. But one man's ass is another man's ar$e, apparently (I hope this will be viewed purely in the light of the discussion and not filter-dodging for fun/to annoy.) Poor Nef having his name filtered and even station names in-game falling foul seems absurd. I appreciate all that you mods do and that things like 'best fit', timezones, and the sheer immensity of checking every post mean some material gets through, but I still find it ironic that in this atypically adult community we rely on such heavy and arbitrary filtering. Quite apart from which, as your example of flaps highlights, given that so many of us are Brits, there's next to nothing we can't make into an innuendo.
I am still in awe of buggers being fine, but the same word without the S isn't. Spot the difference 'Anytime I try to pirate an NPC he buggers off', 'Anytime someone tries to pirate me I        off.' Same word, same context, both used as a verb, yet you get to be Les Dawson with the latter. 'Every time I see that BLANK he tries to shoot me in the BLANK.'
Sigh.

The 's' makes it a pronoun, in place of "pirate", "wrong un" etc.
But without the 'a' it can become an adjective (I think). To "b*****" is an act.
I'm guessing the filter can't read context.

*my grammer is terrible, I have trouble forming coherent sentences most days*

 

[Reina Kaede]

It's a wonky forum filter. My own name is not allowed, but is...[haha]

Don't make fun of Richard!

On topic, I think when somebody has a personal vendetta against another and calls them out maliciously on some place like the forums, then that's Name and Shame / Witchhunting.

But also, we see players named IN-GAME for having high bounties at stations.

Either way, if people want to name-and-shame, they're going to do it, even if it's not through something like the forums or reddit. All they need to do is post the people who they don't like on their Xbox feed and bam, you have your own personal 'hate list'.

 

[El Dragoon!]

FD logic

 

[Reina Kaede]

FD logic

This is the case for most online games though...

 

[iconoclypse]

Andy was innocent! (Movie ref, so chillax)



The 's' makes it a pronoun, in place of "pirate", "wrong un" etc.
But without the 'a' it can become an adjective (I think). To "b*****" is an act.
I'm guessing the filter can't read context.

*my grammer is terrible, I have trouble forming coherent sentences most days*

It's a verb in my examples, as a synonym for leaving the area. With the S it is indeed a pronoun, which would make it a homonym for the verb. Not to mention buggers, as a verb, can mean to leave, or to sodomise, another homonym (see also 'buggers up' - to mess something up etc.).
The filter seems almost nonsensically arbitrary in which contexts are ok.
And then there's the synonyms for bottom, or as Nef points out, ''.

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Don't make fun of Richard!

On topic, I think when somebody has a personal vendetta against another and calls them out maliciously on some place like the forums, then that's Name and Shame / Witchhunting.

But also, we see players named IN-GAME for having high bounties at stations.

Either way, if people want to name-and-shame, they're going to do it, even if it's not through something like the forums or reddit. All they need to do is post the people who they don't like on their Xbox feed and bam, you have your own personal 'hate list'.

All too true, but for the vast majority of the time this forum is a paragon of virtue. There's some good-natured ribbing but seldom any vitriol. Keeping it that way is obviously a good idea. I think we all (or mostly) agree that the rules are pretty good without being over-bearing.
That bloody filter though...

EDIT: See 'bloody' is fine. ARGH!

 

[Javert]

In both these areas (swear filter and name & shame), we have to make a judgement call based on context.

Just because a word gets past the swear filter doesn't necessarily mean it won't be edited out by a mod manually, depending on context. The auto swear filter is a pretty blunt instrument in these forums so manual intervention is necessary.

Keep in mind that these forums and the rules are for multiple FD games, some of which are played by young children so the rules have been set accordingly.

For naming and shaming it's the same - the rule is not against the naming of another commander itself, but in the context of negativity and criticising that other commander, so moderators would exercise some judgement based on context.

Finally the mods do not have the time to fully read every single post here so we have to rely on reported posts for some of this. This also may account for some perceived inconsistencies where we simply had not seen something and it was never reported.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

but I still find it ironic that in this atypically adult community we rely on such heavy and arbitrary filtering.

Not entirely. We are a family friendly forum, and there are children here as well. A lot of FD's games are targetted at children.

EDIT: Doh, see Javert already made this point.

 

[B Wald]

No this.

Funny stuff

Can't rep ATM

 

[iconoclypse]

In both these areas (swear filter and name & shame), we have to make a judgement call based on context.

Just because a word gets past the swear filter doesn't necessarily mean it won't be edited out by a mod manually, depending on context. The auto swear filter is a pretty blunt instrument in these forums so manual intervention is necessary.

Keep in mind that these forums and the rules are for multiple FD games, some of which are played by young children so the rules have been set accordingly.

For naming and shaming it's the same - the rule is not against the naming of another commander itself, but in the context of negativity and criticising that other commander, so moderators would exercise some judgement based on context.

Finally the mods do not have the time to fully read every single post here so we have to rely on reported posts for some of this. This also may account for some perceived inconsistencies where we simply had not seen something and it was never reported.

Ah, now! Firstly, thanks for your post. I found your statement that the rules apply to multiple FDev games very helpful. I don't recall seeing it in the ED rules I scrutinised (I'm open to correction). But even given what you've said about the rules extending to FDev games played by young children, there are plenty of exceptions that grate, and might still cause offence (Agony_Aunt points to the official solution of PM'ing the top mods. That's fine). As I've already acknowledged there are always going to be gaps. We're all only human. I'm so ok with moderation, it's untrue.
BUT your admission that the filter is a blunt instrument aligns with what I've been saying all along. It's WAY too blunt an instrument. And, believe me, I'm continuing to process what you said about these rules being universal, but ask any Brit about the word '' which is ok, in terms of filtering.
Ultimately I'd like to see the list that the filter works from. We can ALL agree that there are a bunch of words that we don't want to see slung at each other in a forum that many of us are heavily invested in. But then there are the silly admissions to said list that mean that some posters can't use their RL name, and in-game station names are considered 'naughty' in-forum.
Again, thanks for all you do, mods.

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Not entirely. We are a family friendly forum, and there are children here as well. A lot of FD's games are targetted at children.

EDIT: Doh, see Javert already made this point.

LOLZ.
See what I mean about how disjointed the mods are?!
What Javert contributed was helpful to me. I had formed the idea that these forums were separate in some way. But I realise how stupid that is. ED is not a mature-rated game and it makes sense that the forum is moderated in line with the game's content. Let's chalk my comment up as a compliment to this forum's posters. I firmly believe that even without the filter and the moderation this forum would still manage to be one of the most civil around.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

What I want to know is, is why do people have such primal urges as a burning desire to name & shame other people?

It's Neanderthal-type behaviour.

21st century people. If someone annoys you, sit through it, then just ignore them afterwards. No better insult, if that's what you feel you need to do, and far more civil.

 

[Summit Soldier]

Are there any rules about posting about a human bounty?

If someone has a bounty on them, what rule prevents you from noting that here?

Would it be against the forum rules to post something like this: "Was just in Sol, noticed that CMDR Dragnet has a bounty of 100000 on him."

Don't think its covered by any forum rules, especially if they are on the bounty list which anyone can see. Of course, if you started saying bad things about the player, like they ate your hamster, then it would be into naughty mat territory.

Remember, the naming and shaming rule exists to stop witch hunts, not bounty hunts. The latter is an in-game activity, the former leads to out-of-game nastiness.

At least that's my understanding.

Well if it's bounties in sol, I guarantee its a member of Soul System. Some are up to 5 mil. You should stop by

 

[Javert]

@iconoclypse - I am not sure if Brett C is prepared to release the list of filtered words - you would have to PM him to see, and in any case, I'm not sure what value that would have and it might help people who are trying to swear without being detected. If you think certain words should be filtered which are not, I suggest you PM Brett C as he is in control of the filter.

In the end, no filter is going to be perfect. Even the word you used above where the plural is passed but the singular is not (which you were lucky not to get edited out even in this thread).

Imaging a player faction in ED who have some lore that they are famous throughout the galaxy for planting covert listening devices inside other pilot's ships, and they are based at Barnard's star. They could call themselves Barnard's ******** and that is probably a valid word that is arguably not swearing by the dictionary (believe it or not I just checked), but mods would still have to take a view on whether it was a deliberate pun so it might still not be allowed. This is extreme but my point being that there are many swear words that have legitimate (but sometimes rare) meanings.

(We all know the story of how the Sex Pistols won their court case in the 1970's by arguing that the swear word included in their album title had some ancient meaning in olde English or whatever)

Not to mention as we've seen, a swear word in one country could actually be someone's name in another country.

There is also of course the issue of bypassing the filter by adding letters at the beginning and end, but if you start filtering that, again you can run into trouble when a real word happens to contain that sequence of letters.

 

[iconoclypse]

@iconoclypse - I am not sure if Brett C is prepared to release the list of filtered words - you would have to PM him to see, and in any case, I'm not sure what value that would have and it might help people who are trying to swear without being detected. If you think certain words should be filtered which are not, I suggest you PM Brett C as he is in control of the filter.

In the end, no filter is going to be perfect. Even the word you used above where the plural is passed but the singular is not (which you were lucky not to get edited out even in this thread).

Imaging a player faction in ED who have some lore that they are famous throughout the galaxy for planting covert listening devices inside other pilot's ships, and they are based at Barnard's star. They could call themselves Barnard's ******** and that is probably a valid word that is arguably not swearing by the dictionary (believe it or not I just checked), but mods would still have to take a view on whether it was a deliberate pun so it might still not be allowed. This is extreme but my point being that there are many swear words that have legitimate (but sometimes rare) meanings.

(We all know the story of how the Sex Pistols won their court case in the 1970's by arguing that the swear word included in their album title had some ancient meaning in olde English or whatever)

Not to mention as we've seen, a swear word in one country could actually be someone's name in another country.

There is also of course the issue of bypassing the filter by adding letters at the beginning and end, but if you start filtering that, again you can run into trouble when a real word happens to contain that sequence of letters.

Thanks again. I guess this old dog will drop his bone. Ideally I think it would be better to have language adjudicated manually, so context, culture, tone, etc. were evaluated, rather than a filter that's like a lobotomised ape playing whack-a-mole . However, I know that realistically that's impossible. I once heard a rumour that mods have lives too. Not sure I believe it, but I'll err on the side of caution. Thanks, J.