Why is there more malice aimed at people wanting mining the way it was than towards the people who exploited it?

[RiotRabit]

The exploiters weren't the only one the profited. Everyone did. I understand not all the vets in ED are as condescending as the ones in this thread, but I think I had it with the "vets" point of view after post #71.

Two reasons:
The first is a fairly short answer - "ED Vets", having already gone through the 'struggle', have already gleaned what value they're going to from the experience. (So, this argument made in the last panel... isn't very valid.)

The second reason would take a while to explain. Basically, because the game's difficulty has reduced over time both by in-game mechanics and changes, and the overall increases to the community's knowledgebase (inara, eddb, youtuber guides, etc.), a new player coming in is simply going to have a different difficulty 'baseline' than an old player. And it's going to be on the easier end of the scale, comparatively.

 

[MishaTX]

The "vets want to pull the ladder up" also makes me roll my eyes.

1) I didn't "eggsploit", so I'm not sure what ladder it is that they're talking about.
2) I haven't heard a single "vet" talk about pulling ladders up. Au contraire, the ones who have an opinion on the subject, myself included, would be more than happy to leave the ladder we used in place indefinitely. It's just that so many new players want an escalator instead. Gold plated. With recliners and a wet bar. And a band.

 

[Dragsham]

I'm somewhere in the middle. Not of the debate. But rather I'm not new or a vet.
Defo had no part of the eggsploit.
I did however mine from Christmas onwards when I started playing. With a view to owning a carrier so l know I had a quick time of it progressing.
But I also unlocked and engineered specially for relevant aspects. Like most so.... I can't help but feel I wish I'd not powerlevelled so much.
It's only now I'm appreciating the fas or cobra 3 etc.
Getting to endgame too quick isn't good.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

Two reasons:
The first is a fairly short answer - "ED Vets", having already gone through the 'struggle', have already gleaned what value they're going to from the experience. (So, this argument made in the last panel... isn't very valid.)

The second reason would take a while to explain. Basically, because the game's difficulty has reduced over time both by in-game mechanics and changes, and the overall increases to the community's knowledgebase (inara, eddb, youtuber guides, etc.), a new player coming in is simply going to have a different difficulty 'baseline' than an old player. And it's going to be on the easier end of the scale, comparatively.

I'm not quite understanding what you're talking about in your first point.

As for your second, with the LTD nerf, markets dropping commodity trade quicker than before the patch, and no buff to any of the other things you can do to offset the mining nerf, I beg to differ that any player starting the game today has it easier than ANYONE playing during the LTD boom. Sure, there are 3rd party efforts that help new players than there was in the beginning, but you still have to put forth the effort to attain it. Credits in the beginning mean everything. Better ships and better modules. From there, better jump range and better mat gathering. Engineers start to open up, and so on. I just keep hearing time and time again that credits aren't the sole thing to do in this game and it should never be, and I agree, but it is very important in the beginning stages of play.

 

[photomankc]

Fix tritium and leave the rest as long as the hotspot produces more than the base ring. It doesn’t have to produce more than anything else.

 

[Dragsham]

Fdev have already said their going to take a look at the current miner blight and fix it...gulp!

 

[SgtMajRaz]

The "vets want to pull the ladder up" also makes me roll my eyes.

1) I didn't "eggsploit", so I'm not sure what ladder it is that they're talking about.
2) I haven't heard a single "vet" talk about pulling ladders up. Au contraire, the ones who have an opinion on the subject, myself included, would be more than happy to leave the ladder we used in place indefinitely. It's just that so many new players want an escalator instead. Gold plated. With recliners and a wet bar. And a band.

The point is that if you mined during the LTD boom, you profited. Period. Whether the mechanic was broken or not, you profited. That was taken away and pretty much everyone understood that, but nothing was done to balance credit profit. FDev simply went from one extreme to another.

Thus far, I have not run into anyone with less than a year in the game looking for a freebie or silver spoon. Most people just want balance. However, instead of agreeing that that credit-making should be balanced, you have to wade through the gamut of posts from vets basically saying get over it, enjoy the grind? I can highlight each and every post of that nature. If you want to find me posts where newbies are asking to be hand-held more than anyone else has been hand-held thus far, I'd be HAPPY to see and concede.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

Fix tritium and leave the rest as long as the hotspot produces more than the base ring. It doesn’t have to produce more than anything else.

I would be okay with this. 100%.

 

[Dragsham]

@SgtMajRaz
Hear what your saying. Balance is something the vets have been wanting for over 6 years. It's always been a bit off.
If fdev could balance it all im sure it would have been.
Hence us all putting out suggestions etc.
Most falls on deaf ears? Idk but l want it balanced too.
The current mining situation should be hotfixed no doubt. And indeed they've already said they will.

 

[RiotRabit]

I'm not quite understanding what you're talking about in your first point.

As for your second, with the LTD nerf, markets dropping commodity trade quicker than before the patch, and no buff to any of the other things you can do to offset the mining nerf, I big to differ that any player starting the game today has it easier than ANYONE playing during the LTD boom. Sure, there are 3rd party efforts that help new players than there was in the beginning, but you still have to put forth the effort to attain it. Credits in the beginning mean everything. Better ships and better modules. From there, better jump range and better mat gathering. Engineers start to open up, and so on. I just keep hearing time and time again that credits aren't the sole thing to do in this game and it should never be, and I agree, but it is very important in the beginning stages of play.

I.. believe you may have actually missed both points, not just the first. No offense.

I'll try a different explanation:

Let's say a difficulty of 5/10 is the average difficulty of the game over its entire lifespan, up to this point.

Comparatively, a player who started at launch would have experienced a difficulty of 8/10.

And the LTD gold rush would be around a 3/10.

After the nerf, the game was brought to around a 6/10.

From an old player's perspective, that 8/10 would be their 5/10 and LTD gold rush a 1/10. After the nerf, it would now be at a 3/10.

The new player who came in during the gold rush, might have some understanding that the game is easier than it should be, but has no frame of reference for the original difficulty of the game. They might put the LTD gold rush at a 3 or 4/10. After the nerf, it would feel like a 7/10.

This new player would argue for a buff that brings it to their perceived 5/10, but the old player would still see that as far below their average difficulty.

I... hope that helps somewhat.

 

[MishaTX]

The point is that if you mined during the LTD boom, you profited. Period. Whether the mechanic was broken or not, you profited. That was taken away and pretty much everyone understood that, but nothing was done to balance credit profit. FDev simply went from one extreme to another.

Well, I didn't. I was too busy being a space hermit thousands of light years away.

As to balancing, you'll get no argument from me (depending on what you mean by "balanced", of course). Then again, these gold rushes have been an on/off thing for as long as I can remember, it's just that the latest one reached levels of comical absurdity that I, at least, can't remember having seen before.

Thus far, I have not run into anyone with less than a year in the game looking for a freebie or silver spoon.

Good for you. I have. If I had a buck for every "500mil/Cr an hour is necessary to have "fun"" post I've read throughout this whole debacle. I'm not going to hunt them down, but they're there. That's not to say that every post is like that, far from it, but they're most definitely there.

I, on the other hand, can't think of any posts at all where "vets" or others are saying that income shouldn't be balanced in one way or another. All I've seen is "maybe one shouldn't be awarded half a billion credits just for logging on" (yes, exaggerating for effect, but the gist of it is there). Not talking about you, just a general observation.

 

[Nikephorus Phocas]

I wonder if I am a veteran? Aside from my DD-214 stating I am but I digress.

 

[Sic Mundus]

No one is grumbling and yes that is exactly what you're implying....you want the game easier. There is nothing good about an outcome without a path to that outcome. I'll say it plainly, you don't want to work for anything or very little of necessary. What I don't want this game to become is NMS.....so Damn easy that it isn't worth playing. Casual games wind up just like casual gamers......they don't stick around long.....

Not easier, balanced. A balanced credit progression for all activities from mining, trading, passenger missions, combat, exploring etc... No one wants a return of mining a la Borann and Borann 2.0. Some of the mining reports currently are very scattered but if some reports are correct, with a fix to Tritium and how hotspots are currently operating, mining should finally be in a sweetspot of decent income per time investment without obscene returns compared to other tasks in the game. The idea that people want a little more balance and you take it as players wanting to be spoon fed is a misconception of your own derived from your inability to open yourself to suggestions simply because you have some skewed sense of what gaming is to you and how it should be for everyone else. I may have taken advantage of the gold rush, but in the end, I did the work. I'm not a bot who just plays with little thought. There was a ton of planning in place and I have to physically play the game to achieve the goals I set for myself and like many others, still wanted mining to see a considerable nerf but a boost to other activities in the game.

The idea that a slight adjusting to rewards in the game will make the game all the more easier is just in your head. What's stopping you from taking a more difficult approach to playing the game? What's stopping you from handicapping yourself to provide a more aggressive experience for yourself? Take a ship not normally used for exploring and take it into the black. Use a combat ship for cargo missions. Take the missions that give less rewards. I'm advocating more player choice and you're advocating that any changes means people are losing out on an experience you've pre-defined and slapped on to be a general basis for what constitutes as fun to all players. So yes, you're grumbling over a misplaced idea that streamlining the rewards system and offering a little more choice somehow ruins your experience, like if you don't have choices to make in the game for yourself and the fact you continue to spew lines like, "there is nothing good about an outcome without a path to that outcome", reeks of selfishness that applies a blanket interpretation of what journey and destination means to fellow CMDRs solely based on what it means to you.

Hey, anyone can play any way they like, but stop pretending that the basic human sense of fairness is somehow alien to you. If everyone would shut the F up about the billions they make and parade their FC's all over the goddamn universe and constant whining when the DEVELOPERS fix a mining bug I wouldnt get triggered. But constantly getting it rubbed in my face will evoke a response and stop pretending that its somehow petty or hypocrite!

Not too long ago the forums were flooded with "ED is too easy" tripe, now you get bucket loads of complaints for ez mode being fixed. It doesnt take a genious to see how this will rub some people the wrong way. So stuff your holier than thou crapitude!

I'm well aware of the concept of fairness. What does it have to do with progressing the game's mechanics over the years and improving on older systems? Do you seriously compare yourself to others on a daily basis? That's quite a depressing thought. Are you ever happy with what you have and what you've achieved or do you whine that people have it easier now just because the natural progression of all things in life is streamlining and efficiency?

"If everyone would shut the F up about the billions they make and parade their FC's all over the goddamn universe" - How utterly bitter man. This is quite a telling of your mentality. Such a "old man shaking his fist at the sky". I can't imagine how you find any sort of joy in life when you're comparing yourself to what others have. We can argue about balance and what mechanics need shaking up, but if your larger argument is that you don't like seeing others succeed and enjoy their progress, then there's not much else to say here as I'm not a medical professional.

 

[Jmanis]

Well, I didn't. I was too busy being a space hermit thousands of light years away.

As to balancing, you'll get no argument from me (depending on what you mean by "balanced", of course). Then again, these gold rushes have been an on/off thing for as long as I can remember, it's just that the latest one reached levels of comical absurdity that I, at least, can't remember having seen before.


Good for you. I have. If I had a buck for every "500mil/Cr an hour is necessary to have "fun"" post I've read throughout this whole debacle. I'm not going to hunt them down, but they're there. That's not to say that every post is like that, far from it, but they're most definitely there.

I, on the other hand, can't think of any posts at all where "vets" or others are saying that income shouldn't be balanced in one way or another. All I've seen is "maybe one shouldn't be awarded half a billion credits just for logging on" (yes, exaggerating for effect, but the gist of it is there). Not talking about you, just a general observation.

Pretty much this. Been here due 5 years and i never took advantage of the blatantly broken mining mechanics (except to do it for about one hour, earning around 200m and giving substance to my claims it paid out too much.

For me:

• i want there to be less grind
• mining needed its nerf
• Base FCs should cost base 1-2b
• other activities need to be reworked to reward better without relying on cheese mechanics like cross- stacked massacres.

20-50m an hour is a lot, but it's the status quo at the moment... that'll get you a base big- three in a day, that's insane. But w/e... that's where we're at.

I keep saying FD need to fix and flesh the base game out first before doing anything like FCs... now we see the LTD nerf crashing into the trit gathering mechanic to refuel FCs, all because that was designed on top of a broken mechanic. What a joke.

 

[Sic Mundus]

I keep saying FD need to fix and flesh the base game out first before doing anything like FCs... now we see the LTD nerf crashing into the trit gathering mechanic to refuel FCs, all because that was designed on top of a broken mechanic. What a joke.

Heavily agree with this sentiment. From what I've gathered, Frontier keeps adding more systems and mechanics into the game without hashing out the original base game and it's many faults, in turn, complicating a web of old and new, mixing it all together and making it a much more difficult task to fix and balance issues that pop while creating new problems.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

@SgtMajRaz
Hear what your saying. Balance is something the vets have been wanting for over 6 years. It's always been a bit off.
If fdev could balance it all im sure it would have been.
Hence us all putting out suggestions etc.
Most falls on deaf ears? Idk but l want it balanced too.
The current mining situation should be hotfixed no doubt. And indeed they've already said they will.

Thank you. Twice.

You didn't tell me I've got it easier than others. You didn't tell me that I'm progressing too fast, even though you think the endgame comes way too fast. It is more of a personal preference than it is gospel. You didn't tell me I should enjoy the grind, need to go through as much of the grind as you have in order to find the holy grail of ED accomplishment, regardless of the circumstances I'm put into as a new player. You didn't inundate me with real world logic for a fantasy space simulator. Most importantly, you didn't call me a filthy, handout-wanting millennial.

You understood that there are issues with ED and they have been voiced for a very long time. You also seem to understand that gameplay, enjoyment, and what we get out of ED differs from person to person (I can really appreciate this).What might be valuable to you, might not be at all valuable to me. I believe a game's mechanics should progress, evolve, and become efficient over the game's lifespan. Not revert back to the dark ages, and then be told the dark age way of doing it will leave you more fulfilled.

Like you, despite what I think are shortcomings, I still enjoy the game. I still put in hours when I can and it's the only game I currently play on console. There were times when I couldn't even log-in without freezing because a system that was on my route, was a system that was filled with FCs and that lasted for days. I'm just trying to speak for people like my buddies that I dragged off of D2 and NMS, who arrived to ED post-patch. Who are trying to hammer through a steel wall with toothpick mechanics that you went through for so long, but now it's harder. Its harder because there's no balance to the other professions of making money WORTH the time it takes to complete a task in said profession. Even professions that should be through the roof with credits, because of their high difficulty, make very little money. It's coming though, right? Right around the corner? Hotspot and Tritium fix? Should I hold my breath?

It's frustrating to have to sit through this entire thread to keep reiterating that, as a newer player, I don't want "easy-mode". That, yes, I enjoyed LTD being profitable (not the Egg). That, yes, I thought it should be nerfed too. That, yes, there needs to be something counter to the nerf to give newer players an incentive to trudge through the grind, or risk losing them to frustration. This is NOT a game that's in it's first year of discovering itself where starting players grind through trial and error, but it's a game heading into year 7 and should be focused on delivering the next best thing. However, it can't even get it's own economy right. It can't get the basics figured out FIRST. How can it even focus on retaining old players and bring in new players? Certainly not with how newer players can be treated in these forums like we're whining for handouts, but really want no more or no less of the grind than it was yesterday and to be understood that the game can be enjoyed without enduring your middling mechanics of yesteryear, and can even be improved upon.

So yeah, thanks again.

 

[RiotRabit]

Thank you. Twice.

You didn't tell me I've got it easier than others. You didn't tell me that I'm progressing too fast, even though you think the endgame comes way too fast. It is more of a personal preference than it is gospel. You didn't tell me I should enjoy the grind, need to go through as much of the grind as you have in order to find the holy grail of ED accomplishment, regardless of the circumstances I'm put into as a new player. You didn't inundate me with real world logic for a fantasy space simulator. Most importantly, you didn't call me a filthy, handout-wanting millennial.

You understood that there are issues with ED and they have been voiced for a very long time. You also seem to understand that gameplay, enjoyment, and what we get out of ED differs from person to person (I can really appreciate this).What might be valuable to you, might not be at all valuable to me. I believe a game's mechanics should progress, evolve, and become efficient over the game's lifespan. Not revert back to the dark ages, and then be told the dark age way of doing it will leave you more fulfilled.

Like you, despite what I think are shortcomings, I still enjoy the game. I still put in hours when I can and it's the only game I currently play on console. There were times when I couldn't even log-in without freezing because a system that was on my route, was a system that was filled with FCs and that lasted for days. I'm just trying to speak for people like my buddies that I dragged off of D2 and NMS, who arrived to ED post-patch. Who are trying to hammer through a steel wall with toothpick mechanics that you went through for so long, but now it's harder. Its harder because there's no balance to the other professions of making money WORTH the time it takes to complete a task in said profession. Even professions that should be through the roof with credits, because of their high difficulty, make very little money. It's coming though, right? Right around the corner? Hotspot and Tritium fix? Should I hold my breath?

It's frustrating to have to sit through this entire thread to keep reiterating that, as a newer player, I don't want "easy-mode". That, yes, I enjoyed LTD being profitable (not the Egg). That, yes, I thought it should be nerfed too. That, yes, there needs to be something counter to the nerf to give newer players an incentive to trudge through the grind, or risk losing them to frustration. This is NOT a game that's in it's first year of discovering itself where starting players grind through trial and error, but it's a game heading into year 7 and should be focused on delivering the next best thing. However, it can't even get it's own economy right. It can't get the basics figured out FIRST. How can it even focus on retaining old players and bring in new players? Certainly not with how newer players can be treated in these forums like we're whining for handouts, but really want no more or no less of the grind than it was yesterday and to be understood that the game can be enjoyed without enduring your middling mechanics of yesteryear, and can even be improved upon.

So yeah, thanks again.

You didn't appear to understand my second explanation, either. I apologize for wasting your time.

I would appreciate you not using my generation as a crutch, though.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

So you're telling me that Elder Scrolls Online will let you fast track to an end-game character overnight because you are joining the game late and it isn't fair that people who have been playing ESO for years are ahead of you?

I'm beginning to wonder if you are a half decade old...

Well actually, there are mining level rushes you can do in game to get to gear cap (grinding dolmens).

It is handled with much more finess though.. to min max it you need to be part of an organized group, which creates a unique experience in itself, its not as dumb as choosing one single player activity (though i think there are those too, but less effective). The other thing is the experience of the world is not removed or invalidated by doing so, the general content (difficulty+reward) scales to your level, and while not presenting any form of challenge ever like most games, it still feels valid to do the first quest of the game at cp160 vs level 1. Both the difficulty and the progression beyond gear cap makes this so. There's also another dynamic of being able to buff it even further with cash shop items but that doesn't need to be mentioned.. you get enough of those free from logging in every day anyway.

ps. The cool thing about those dolmens is you can solo them at lower levels with the right build. But they take longer but are very satisfying because you beat this glorified pseudo multiplayer thing. i love it how that works.

Eso is pretty amazing. At the same time its not that hard because its evident in the pudding they just take their profession seriously. Happens when there's competition.

 

[Grumpy181155]

To the OP. I remember not long after I did my wipe and restarted Frontier did say in a post that there was a gold rush on for Void Opals BUT it wasn't going to last. I'm not sure if the people who got in on this gold rush are the exploiters you are referring to or there was some other exploit I am not aware of which is very possible as I don't spend a lot of time on the forums anymore.

 

[Sfcactionjax7]

I have been playing ED for about three years now and I have enjoyed each of the "professions" the game has to offer. Of course combat, and the slowness of making it to Elite is off putting I stopped at Master. Anyway, the one thing I always felt was odd, why do Veteran players care some much about what a New players gets in a certain time frame? Personally, I don't care that a new player gets an Anaconda, Cutter, or whatever in a few days, weeks, or a month. How does that affect my enjoyment in playing the game? It's a game and sometimes I think people take it to extreme levels when a new players buys something like an Anaconda in a short time period. Honestly, Frontier doesn't give out cash bonuses to players that reach a personal milestone in ED or reward players for buying an expensive ship in a certain time frame.

I have been playing World of Warcraft for twelve years now and that community is just like the ED community. Certain hardcore players raging against what new players receive and taking it personally like a slap in the face due to the time us older players took to get this and that. Again, personally I can careless what new players gets, what that can do in short time, or anything else that really doesn't affect me or my game play. At the end of the day Elite Dangerous is a game, just like World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls, or any other game. My self worth isn't predicated on a video game or what other people think I should have in a certain time frame. If a new player gets a Anaconda in three days, good for him or her. I got mine in the first week of playing, because for me this game wasn't hard to figure out, but It did take me a lot of time to engineer my ships, farm items for engineering, visit guardian sites, and do a lot of other task. It took Distant Worlds II for me to muster the strength to explore the galaxy to earn Elite for exploration and by that time I was already playing for sometime.

Anyway, I respect reading everyone's opinion, but at times I think we all need to realize this is only a game and it doesn't matter what others are getting in the long term or short term. Do you enjoy Elite Dangerous with all its flaws? If yes, then continue to enjoy and don't worry about the new kids on the block. Pass off some of that Old timer wisdom to them if you so happen to encounter them in the black or bubble. And don't be jealous if they got an Anaconda in a few days when it took you months or a year. It's ok, they still have a lot more to learn when it comes to Elite Dangerous.