Why must combat ships have terrible range?

[KayAitch]

“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”

Same goes for "Balance".

RIP Sir Terry Pratchett.

Yes. Only we're talking about balance in a carefully crafted game, not the lack of it in the real universe.

The Frontier devs want combat ship ranges to suck. I don't think they did this just to punk players that prefer combat, but the range is far worse than it needs to be just to balance the ships.

The question is why do the creators of Elite want combat ships to have terrible range?

 

[PhazonAran]

The question is why do the creators of Elite want combat ships to have terrible range?

So we can crave for ship transport.

 

[[VR] Goooost]

In Elite: Frontier these ships could be fitted with Military Drives, significantly increasing their range, but requiring permits to buy, being significantly more expensive and producing toxic waste on each jump. Is something like that planned?

Dear god I hope so. That would be so badass.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

No your calculating it wrong, jumps are never in a perfect straight line, the are many times a jump might be 13lys and having a 12ly range means taking a 3 jump path just to close the 13lys. Plot a jump from Shinrarta to Cherets (sp?) And I bet it's 15 jumps and I don't believe that's even 100 lys

It was just quick basic math, Lol
I wasn't taking anything else in to account.

But back to the OP,
My FDL has a puny jump range of 12.3ly

Trying to run escort with a trader Python is impossible.
It's not unbalanced to allow the FDL to jump 15-18ly at a time.
All its good for is combat. A Python can do anything, including combat, and can Jim p much further. Either the FDL needs an A7 FSD.
Or just for the sake of 'balance', allow wing jumping to auto buff your jump range.

 

[Andy_Pipkin]

I want to be able to establish my own mining-field on a planet, that will provide me with a constant supply of materials, so that I can use those to have a boosted jumprange on my FdL!

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

Because reasons....

Its actually so non-combat role ships can out jump a combat vessel as a method of escape. But very few even realize jumping out of a system to run instead of going into SC is the better option.

And combat vessels dont really need big FSDs since they wont necessarily be packed full of goods. Where as a trade ship full of goods will have around the same jump range anyways (maybe a bit more or a bit less than), so in a tight spot FD want the player to experience a dichotomy. Either die, or jettison cargo and out jump the attacker an live.... even though it never plays out like that. This is the basic premise and considering multi role ships like a Cobra or a Python its blurred a bit but they are still bested in their class by the signature Trader/Fighter ships.

 

[CariadocThorne]

Because reasons....

Its actually so non-combat role ships can out jump a combat vessel as a method of escape. But very few even realize jumping out of a system to run instead of going into SC is the better option.

Exactly.

Possibly the main reason we still get any trader CMDRs in open. From what i see there aren't many of them left, taking away their ability to jump where the attacker can't follow might just send the rest off to Mobius.

 

[Shanaeri]

Exactly.

Possibly the main reason we still get any trader CMDRs in open. From what i see there aren't many of them left, taking away their ability to jump where the attacker can't follow might just send the rest off to Mobius.

trying to out jump a combat ship is not the way to run from an attacker, jump anywhere(range is not important), drop out of SC and jumping again(range is not important) will lose any pursuer. So fleeing is not a valid reason for gimping jump range on combat ships, as the range you can jump is not a factor in losing them.

Besides, none of the pirates and attackers I know will bother to follow a ship. they'll just wait for someone else or for them to come back again

so while in theory it was a good idea to limit jump ranges to aid escape, in practice it doesn't work and just inconveniences more people than it saves

 

[Snarfbuckle]

The Fer-De-Lance have a rather nice jump range but the limiting factor in that ship is more or less the fuel tank.

Put in one 4C fuel tank OR a 4A fuel scoop and you can go 98LY or infinity and 11-12LY per jump. Yes, you have to sacrifice one 4A Cell Bank but we ALL have to sacrifice something depending on ship.

Fer-De-Lance is a short range combat ship, hence the fuel tank limitation.

 

[SpitTheDog]

trying to out jump a combat ship is not the way to run from an attacker, jump anywhere(range is not important), drop out of SC and jumping again(range is not important) will lose any pursuer. So fleeing is not a valid reason for gimping jump range on combat ships, as the range you can jump is not a factor in losing them.

Besides, none of the pirates and attackers I know will bother to follow a ship. they'll just wait for someone else or for them to come back again

so while in theory it was a good idea to limit jump ranges to aid escape, in practice it doesn't work and just inconveniences more people than it saves

Of course it is a way to escape.

Your way assumes they have not already interdicted you. If they have and their ship has you in mass lock then unless you can outrun them, jumping to another system is the way out.

It might be rare for them to follow you, but the jump range is a factor in their ability to manage that.

In real life true combat vessels have limited ranges otherwise they have to have more efficient engines that aren't as powerful therefore they lose on speed/agility. Sure there are variations but as with everything there is a trade off. ED is not real life since there are no insta-jump situations in real life but it tries to replicate the concept.

ED by doing this is also restricting the ability of a pure combat vessel to move as freely around looking for or causing trouble. You have to work for it. 12 ly upwards is a pain but it is a manageable pain. A pure combat ship has massive advantages in a combat situation anyway so it is in no way unfair to give it a drawback in one or more other areas.

 

[DragoonKnight]

The Fer-De-Lance have a rather nice jump range but the limiting factor in that ship is more or less the fuel tank.

Put in one 4C fuel tank OR a 4A fuel scoop and you can go 98LY or infinity and 11-12LY per jump. Yes, you have to sacrifice one 4A Cell Bank but we ALL have to sacrifice something depending on ship.

Fer-De-Lance is a short range combat ship, hence the fuel tank limitation.

The FDL's jump range is really very bad. I fly a relatively lightweight FDL and I get just 13 LY out of mine. That is without military armor. If I need to go far I just take the clipper or Conda, but that is not a good solution. Crap jump range and crap fuel tank means FDL pilots are constantly scooping to get anywhere.

 

[CariadocThorne]

trying to out jump a combat ship is not the way to run from an attacker, jump anywhere(range is not important), drop out of SC and jumping again(range is not important) will lose any pursuer. So fleeing is not a valid reason for gimping jump range on combat ships, as the range you can jump is not a factor in losing them.

That doesn't always work in practise. With enough lag it is possible to come out of jump only a few seconds ahead of your pursuer, giving them time to interdict you again. (I don't know which parts of the process would be handled server-side and which client-side, so I'm not sure whether the delay to entering or exiting jump is caused by the player's computer, latency, or the server)

Jumping to a system they can't reach is more reliable.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

The FDL's jump range is really very bad. I fly a relatively lightweight FDL and I get just 13 LY out of mine. That is without military armor. If I need to go far I just take the clipper or Conda, but that is not a good solution. Crap jump range and crap fuel tank means FDL pilots are constantly scooping to get anywhere.

Most ships have an average jump range between 10-15 LY with combat ships and huge cargo ships drawing the short stick.

The 15-20 range LY ships are mostly multi-role ships and at the end of the spectrum of 20+LY ships are the Explorers or Multi-Role explorers.

 

[Drunk Si]

I just love the fact that if a bounty hunter had to chase a target who happened to be in a multi-role ship across the galaxy they'd be stuffed; they'd lose ground on them every jump, and lose time when they have to fuel scoop every stop along the way. Thankfully all the work comes to them at RES sites in this crazy universe and they don't have to worry about that sort of thing. If they ever did have to chase someone I guess they'd ditch their luxury ship, buy a hauler, chase them in that and then see if they could buy something a little better when they close the gap. It seems mad to me.

 

[Shanaeri]

That doesn't always work in practise. With enough lag it is possible to come out of jump only a few seconds ahead of your pursuer, giving them time to interdict you again. (I don't know which parts of the process would be handled server-side and which client-side, so I'm not sure whether the delay to entering or exiting jump is caused by the player's computer, latency, or the server)

Jumping to a system they can't reach is more reliable.

Then submit and jump again. Never fight a player interdiction and high wake as soon as you know it's a fight you can't win. High wakes are not affected by mass locks, most players I see killed either try to fight the interdiction and cant get away, or stay too long when they should be hyperspacing out.

I know some pretty notorious player killers(one even got banned for killing too many players for a while) and they would rather use the slot for something useful than use it for a frameshift wake scanner. I.e they will stay where they are rather than chase you all over the place

i'm still convinced jump range has nothing to do with being able to avoid being killed by a player. It's a learn to fly issue not a game balance one

 

[Pinkie]

Combat ships have rubbish range by design, why?

How can an F150 pickup carry two tons of concrete, but a GeeWhiz can't? How can a Le Ferrari top 200 MPH, but a Kia Ce'ed can't even make it to 115 MPH?

Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet has 2,000 mile range. Boeing 777-300er can do 6,000. The world is ending, the world is ending!

Name one CZ or RES that a Viper, FDL, or Corvette can't get too because of range limitations. Although, if you feel strongly enough about this, we could petition Frontier to adopt the former Soviet Union model, remove all ship models and give everyone a space version of the Trabant. Then we're all all equal.

 

[SpitTheDog]

How can an F150 pickup carry two tons of concrete, but a GeeWhiz can't? How can a Le Ferrari top 200 MPH, but a Kia Ce'ed can't even make it to 115 MPH?

Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet has 2,000 mile range. Boeing 777-300er can do 6,000. The world is ending, the world is ending!

Name one CZ or RES that a Viper, FDL, or Corvette can't get too because of range limitations. Although, if you feel strongly enough about this, we could petition Frontier to adopt the former Soviet Union model, remove all ship models and give everyone a space version of the Trabant. Then we're all all equal.

Space Trabant - Isn't that the Adder?

 

[WR3ND]

Probably so players buy and own multiple ships. If my Vulture had a huge jump range I wouldn't bother with any other ship.

It can be a bit tricky reaching some nebulae with the 15LY jump range of my fully combat capable Vulture exploration ship, but it has decent range actually, and can be pushed to over 20LY pretty easily. It just doesn't have an overpowered jump range like some other ships.

So yeah, I haven't been really bothering with other ships, except the Cobra for occasional community goals.

 

[LameoveR]

Combat ships must fly in one system and patrol! Remove FSD from it.

 

[WR3ND]

Combat ships must fly in one system and patrol! Remove FSD from it.

Well, either way, they should definitely nerf the jump range of some ships. 30LY is probably the max any ship should have. (Only somewhat joking.)

Jump range is really only important to racers, which still isn't much of an issue as it's just changing the playing field a bit.