The if it would break the immersion, simply don't use it. Having options doesn't mean you're forced to use it.
Why no 3rd person?
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The if it would break the immersion, simply don't use it. Having options doesn't mean you're forced to use it.
Ultimately you are correct, it *is* Frontier's decision what goes into the game for <whatever reason>, and we don't have to like it. And I'll agree that I don't recall Frontier saying one way or the other why they did what they did, other than "sorry, not our vision guys!" *Edit* I see in your subsequent post you have gone to the trouble to source a lot of the quotes that the Devs have made on the subject - thank you for that!).
However, whatever the previous reasons (or not) for the inclusion (or not) of a particular feature doesn't invalidate continued discussion about that feature. The counter arguments to inclusion of 3rd person (either "advantage in PvP", or "a real pilot couldn't do it) are valid arguments even if Frontier didn't make them or they aren't the reasons why they're not in the game. My original point (aside from the somewhat facetious quip about the golden age of sims) was that a third-person could be included in ways that satisfy both of those objections (lock third person to solo mode, use drones etc.) Whatever is said in this thread, I doubt it would change much, nor alter the current in-game status quo.
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Totally agree. If people want 3rd person they should keep fighting for it and if people don't want it they should continue arguing against it. Just forget about the FDEV + Sim + Advantage part, because it's just a myth
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Oh golly, not this discussion again.
This has been done to death over and over.
There is not, and never will be 3rd person view ok? If you want to take screenshots then ctrl-alt-space. That's all you will ever get. We don't want, nor do we need a 3rd person view.
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Try some racing sims which similarly don't have 3rd person views. You don't even have any valid arguments as to why you think you need a 3rd person view. Because you don't
This has been done to death over and over.
There is not, and never will be 3rd person view ok? If you want to take screenshots then ctrl-alt-space. That's all you will ever get. We don't want, nor do we need a 3rd person view.
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if you used 3rd person views in flight sims, then you're not a true sim lover.
Try some racing sims which similarly don't have 3rd person views. You don't even have any valid arguments as to why you think you need a 3rd person view. Because you don't
Totally agree. If people want 3rd person they should keep fighting for it and if people don't want it they should continue arguing against it. Just forget about the FDEV + Sim + Advantage part, because it's just a myth
Cool. Glad that's resolved.
It really depends on the game. Microsoft Flight Simulator for example allows you to spawn everywhere in every ship you want. You can go from New York to Tokyo in one click. Now this would obviously be a bad design decision for ED, which isn't a sim anyway. The real reason 3rd person view is not implemented is that FDEV doesn't want it. People should be free to disagree, that doesn't mean that it will change anything, but if it makes people happy to talk about it I am fine with it.
There's so much that could be said about this, but I'll just settle for <facepalm!>
There's so much that could be said about this, but I'll just settle for <facepalm!>
LOL yeah, not a very bright statement at all. I don't even know where to begin! xD
+rep
In Eve you have no option but 3rd person.
In Elite I would prefer to have both with much improved externals.
Why not a version of this? A type of this kind of lock on camera is in virtually every other "sim". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAH4nQ7ZUsk
Are you talking about padlock? I would love to see it in game for those that don't have a VR device or head tracking, but how is it related to 3rd person?
It isn't but it would be an alternative to an advantage a third person view could create. I don't have VR or TrackIR and a padlock feature would help immensely in judging enemy position and how you can respond to their thruster movement. As it is now I have to guess what they are doing when they are out of my FOV.
In real life, you can look behind you in a fighter cockpit. In real life dogfighting, if you "lose Sight you lose the fight"! In ED in the fictitious far future we became suddenly stupid combat ship design and we only wanted tunnel vision...lol. The purpose of 3rd person views in hard core flight sims is to make up for the fact that in real life you have something called peripheral vision which can't be achieved in a video game. It's one of the silliest arguments that has gone on for the last two years on the ED forums. When you log into ED you have 3 options. Solo, group and open. For the most part 2 of the 3 have no pvp. Why does some pvp gamer get to dictate how I should enjoy my game in solo?
The target triangle shows the direction they are flying, you can also look at the hologram. But as said above, I want padlock too.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
From a previous discussion:
Hi Mike,
I'm actually somewhat surprised to hear this coming from a designer. I debated for a while on whether to respond to this thread, because in doing so (and to provide context) I feel like I would also have to "out" myself. My experience has been that designers strive for parity and equity within their player base, in order to appeal to as broad a number of users as possible. This not an accusation in ANY way that your viewpoint is in opposition to this, but it does give the folks with the hardware (Oculus / TrackIR) a distinct advantage in combat. To some degree, this is unavoidable: someone using only keyboard / mouse will be at a disadvantage to someone with a Saitek x52 or similar HOTAS. But levelling the playing field and providing as much parity as possible has always been one of my goals as a designer.
You see, A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, I was a game system designer and content designer for X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance (and several other flight combat games since). And while I have moved on to other areas of game design, I have a lot of experience with flight combat and multiplayer considerations, and wide disparity in user hardware. I say this not to "toot my own horn" so to speak, but more to provide context that I truly understand the challenges, tough decisions and considerations that you, as a designer, have to make every day.
There are a myriad of design solutions that in my experience have been "low hanging fruit / low risk" that can potentially level the playing field on this topic. As mentioned above, resetting the default forward view on the target going behind the cockpit, activating silent running, and other situations would be relatively easy, and yet still give the hardware folks a bit of an unavoidable edge. Still, there's not a lot of need to reinvent the wheel here, so it really comes down to design philosophy. I'm curious what that philosophy is that is at the heart of your distaste for such a feature. I'd love to hear why you feel so strongly against a padlock view.
Please understand it's not my intention in the slightest to put you on the defensive or "demand" you to justify your design decisions. I'm genuinely interested in your viewpoint on why a padlock view (with a few conditions and exceptions) is undesirable from one designer to another. I actually fall somewhat outside this argument because quite frankly, as soon as the commercial Oculus Rift is available, you can bet your shiny new Imperial Courier that I'll be picking one up. But also, speaking as a father of a very active (and rambunctious) 3 year old, I can't always strap a piece of hardware on my head, lest the boy start climbing the china cabinet or de-whiskering the cat. (Yes, sadly, these attempts have been made). A padlock view in a flight combat game is, for me at least, extremely immersive. So why exclude it?
I'd love to hear your response and your design view, if you're willing to share it.
Kindest Regards,
Another Space Combat Designer. (High-five!)
PS - I am so excited for this game- I'm really seriously fanboying out over it on a daily basis, and you guys are doing a phenomenal job. I love the direction the game is going (and am enjoying the Alpha tremendously), and look forward to seeing the solutions you find to the challenges ahead. My very best to the entire team!
PPS - I don't suppose you're looking for contract designers who can work off site?
My feeling is that to make padlock not be some godlike feature that you use to automatically lock onto targets no matter what you'd have to have a bunch of stuff automatically control how and when it works. Those automatic actions, like resetting it to a forwards view when the target goes out of sight will I think be jarring for the player because they're not in control of it like they are when they manually look around. Also after it's reset presumably the pad lock is still toggled on so as soon as the conditions are met for it to re-lock onto the target it will which could be as equally jarring. The only sensible solution to this I feel is to not have any form of automated control at all and just have the pad lock stay locked on no matter what because at least then the player is the arbiter on when it should and should do anything by toggling it on or off. But that is too unbalanced. I would rather give the advantage to those that have head tracking devices that implement such a pad lock. At least head tracking devices are within the spirit of the game what with moving your own head like your ships avatar does to look around.
I'm against PLAYING in a 3rd person like with targeting and all that.
But why not having a 3rd person just for people who are using it to look around? They make all these nices ships and you can't even look at your own ship. The debug camera is horrible.
Hilarious that the Xwing/Tie Fighter coder chimes in too. There literally is no good reason for locking people inside their cockpits. I mean even though I don't like SC they are allowing a quickly accessible external view.
But why not having a 3rd person just for people who are using it to look around? They make all these nices ships and you can't even look at your own ship. The debug camera is horrible.
Hilarious that the Xwing/Tie Fighter coder chimes in too. There literally is no good reason for locking people inside their cockpits. I mean even though I don't like SC they are allowing a quickly accessible external view.
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That's not the case. FDEV dictates how you should enjoy the game and it isn't because of sim aspects or advantages.
In real life, you can look behind you in a fighter cockpit. In real life dogfighting, if you "lose Sight you lose the fight"! In ED in the fictitious far future we became suddenly stupid combat ship designers and we only wanted tunnel vision...lol. The purpose of 3rd person views in hard core flight sims is to make up for the fact that in real life you have something called peripheral vision which can't be achieved in a video game. It's one of the silliest arguments that has gone on for the last two years on the ED forums. When you log into ED you have 3 options. Solo, group and open. For the most part 2 of the 3 have no pvp. Why does some pvp gamer get to dictate how I should enjoy my game in solo?
So he wants the player to be in control of everything. Now explain limpets, docking computers, gimballed weapons, turrets, or any other game system that the player doesn't directly control. I see that answer as more of a "We're not sure how to implement this in such as way as to satisfy everyone." or.. "it's very hard" Which is weird.. because all you would need to do would have a padlock that is activated as a button hold. If you have something selected then hold this button..your head swivels to the target. Release the button and you're good to go again.
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Does it want to be a simulation or a game? Well simulators allow external views.. all of them. Even DCS.
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