Why Not Play Another Game?

[MissMeYet]

So let's recap here - they made a game with 2 maps (the 3rd map is 1/4 of the size and isn't out yet), a handful of guns and vehicles and it's PVP and that's all they could do with over a £Billion in sales (they've sold at least 60 million copies iirc). On top of that, they do nothing about the cheating.

That's right, there are 2 maps in the game, and a third is in development (the beta for it closed last week). But there's no limit to the number of maps, and they're all hand-made, not some RNG-created mess. They look and play great.

There's way more than "a handful" of guns/weapons, and all the firearms can be modded with accessories you find during the match.

Cheating/hacks is still out of control, but the implementation of regional servers has at least reduced the instances of it for the NA and EU players. They just need to region lock China.

 

[Friedenreich Xante]

Totally agree with OP. I come from the X series, and this is the closest game, and even by far leaps better than the X games. It's like a Vega Strike final release (did anyone here Play that Freeware game?)

I had a Close look at other space sims before buying it, and that's a bullseye. Even if every now and then the bugs make my blood boil.

 

[Jex =TE=]

That's one of it's main appeals for a lot of people, obscure stuff, learning for yourself and actions having consequences. The mode choice ED offer's is definitely a new thing, and probably the way of the future.

Space games are a fairly large (but overlooked) genre, ED is in the huge open world sub genre (and leads it setting the benchmark or industry standard). The X-games are the property mogul sub genre, NMS is the cartoon one, EVE is a top down 2D factions and intrigue land RTS that just happens to have a space backdrop, and Star citizen is the development hell comedy option.

ED will never rival the X-games for property management, or EVE for huge faction PVP. Neither of those (or their sequels) will ever rival ED for freedom, flight model and scale.

A lot of the people complaining about ED and demanding changes they think will fix it really want a different game entirely, it's just ED is the only space game around so for now they hang around complaining that unsuitable incompatible aspects of other sub-genre's get welded onto it.

There's nothing to learn though. In Subnautica, I have a plethora of learning stuff. 30 hours in and I still can't find an indoor or outdoor planter and still haven't found hav=lf the chemicals probably. 30 hours into ED you've pretty much done everything - this doesn't address the old and shoddy game mechanics though - repetitive, unchallenging, samey, dull, dragged out - I'm not sure hot that can be classed as industry standard.

ED has a fun flight model and it looks really nice and sounds are brilliant. The entire galaxy is there which is also amazing

----------------------------------------------------

ED has very simple games. There is trading where you repeatedly go back and forth hundreds of time between two points once you've managed to find a decent route. Then it's netflix time (the fact that people watch netflix proves ED is not industry standard my any measure)

There's deliver a parcel and you'll get "look at that tasty cargo) LOL
there's deliver passengers
There's mining - press and hold fire, let game do it for you
same with scanning planets
Etc
Etc

So above the line we have really good stuff - below the line, the actual game it's pretty poor stuff.

To say this cannot be fixed might be true as at least one of the devs alluded to that a few months back. I've asked this before and it seems ridiculous to me that there are no escort this ship to this point missions or defend the space station - you'd think they'd be staple missions and to not have them really shows FDev don't have much of a clue - to miss out basic stuff like this is ridiculous,

 

[Jex =TE=]

You are basically saying not to criticize ED in the gen discussion forum and not to expect something you have paid for to be as you expect/wish. Both of these points are flawed and add little/nothing to the discussion. In all seriousness you would add far more value to this discussion (and by inference most/all others) by not posting in these forums. It is reasonable to say things can be improved, it is also reasonable to expect what you pay for to be as advertised. If the game is so perfect perhaps you should be playing it rather than telling people not to suggest ways to improve it?

How on earth did you come to that conclusion from what I wrote? I think the game is perfect????????

 

[Ian Skippy]

The benchmark Elite experience has to be FFED3D - that's the most advanced, most elite-ish game currently available. Pioneer comes a close second, but falls short due to the complete absence of fixed-beam CQB. FFED3D has it all - thrilling action, no barriers or limits or transitions, all the fun of real unfettered spaceflight, with realistic gravity and basic physics and celestial mechanics, and the most intense combat since classic Elite on the Beeb.

ED wouldn't even make it onto my list of elite-alikes - it would be on a separate list of 'lame & unfulfilling wannabes', alongside Oolite, the X series, Wing Commander and Freelancer etc. etc. ED just isn't very elite-ish, and certainly isn't capable of any of the kinds of gameplay i've always sought from the series. virtually zero experience of spaceflight, the only thing more pathetic than its 'spaceships' is its combat, or lack thereof, but which is probably just as well given the comical abilities of the so-called 'spaceships'..

So long as you're not a graphics snob, FFED3D really is the best, and most authentic game of Elite you can play. Furthermore if you actually enjoy ED's excuse for 'combat', i'd definitely recommend giving Pioneer a closer look - since it's basically proper Elite, just with ED's tedious and agonizingly drawn-out slow-pitching contests instead of Elite's more traditional high-intensity CQB.

But if you're seriously setting the bar at ED, then... yeah.. no, sorry - that's not really Elite you're even playing there. More like the hideous offspring of X & Oolite with a few RPG / MP tropes thrown in.


ETA: some examples of gameplay vids: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrny-ysVxM-DSn3mh-R9Sww/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0

ED has by far the best flight model.

 

[Jex =TE=]

That's right, there are 2 maps in the game, and a third is in development (the beta for it closed last week). But there's no limit to the number of maps, and they're all hand-made, not some RNG-created mess. They look and play great.

There's way more than "a handful" of guns/weapons, and all the firearms can be modded with accessories you find during the match.

Cheating/hacks is still out of control, but the implementation of regional servers has at least reduced the instances of it for the NA and EU players. They just need to region lock China.

There's 2 maps - saying "they can make as many as they like" is not a positive for a game lol.

As for the desert map, it pretty much sucks. You can barely drive anywhere without a case of whiplash and the distribution of towns/areas is pretty awful as well not to mention it's a direct copy of the original map as shown here...

[video]https://i2.wp.com/pubghq.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/oldvsnewpubgmap.png?w=1024[/video]

I enjoy them, I like the way they look but I don't think they're particularly brilliant but it doesn't matter that much - they fit their purpose.

The new map however is 1/4 of the size so imagine every game will be like chuting into school or Military.

China seems to be the worst culprit for cheating but I suspect, because of the stupid people buying clothes for hundreds of £££'s, it's attracting people soely to make a profit off it. They can stop the cheating anytime in fact by doing two things...

Stop the sale of vanity items for real money.
Ban cheaters by their GUID's (so basically having to make them buy a new PC to play again).

If I'm in PUBG to make money and every couple of months they ban me but I made £500 that month - do you think I'm not going to pay £30 to make another 500?

They don't do this because they want the cheaters in the game.

 

[Stigbob]

There's nothing to learn though. In Subnautica, I have a plethora of learning stuff. 30 hours in and I still can't find an indoor or outdoor planter and still haven't found hav=lf the chemicals probably. 30 hours into ED you've pretty much done everything - this doesn't address the old and shoddy game mechanics though - repetitive, unchallenging, samey, dull, dragged out - I'm not sure hot that can be classed as industry standard.

I like it, still learning now after four years.

Subnautica spoiler for growbed :

Spoiler

Swim in a direct line with the aurora's engine and you'll find an island on the island you'll find the outdoor growbed plus plantpots for indoor, plus food plants.

ED has a fun flight model and it looks really nice and sounds are brilliant. The entire galaxy is there which is also amazing

----------------------------------------------------

ED has very simple games. There is trading where you repeatedly go back and forth hundreds of time between two points once you've managed to find a decent route. Then it's netflix time (the fact that people watch netflix proves ED is not industry standard my any measure)

There's deliver a parcel and you'll get "look at that tasty cargo) LOL
there's deliver passengers
There's mining - press and hold fire, let game do it for you
same with scanning planets
Etc
Etc

So above the line we have really good stuff - below the line, the actual game it's pretty poor stuff.

That's the tradeoff, subnautica excellent exploration of a small area but once it's done it's done. ED is literally galactic in scale but lacks intricate handcrafted area's a few kilometers across.

You can't have both in one game. The more intricate the detail is the less volume of it you get.

To say this cannot be fixed might be true as at least one of the devs alluded to that a few months back. I've asked this before and it seems ridiculous to me that there are no escort this ship to this point missions or defend the space station - you'd think they'd be staple missions and to not have them really shows FDev don't have much of a clue - to miss out basic stuff like this is ridiculous,

You can't have defend the station without destructible stations, you can't have destructible stations or you'll have no stations due to people being people plus related meltdowns. You could have a CZ around a station, but the attackers would get slaughtered by the station if it's guns were on and if they were off people would say their immersion hurt. Thargoid attack would be different I suppose, wait and see with that.

Escort the NPC is one of the most boring broken and frustrating quests you can ever get in a game.

 

[Chaparral]

1) I do play other games.

2) ED is frustrating because it has so many amazing features, but it falls short because of a lack of development organization and resources. Everything is shoestring. P2P, micro instances, repeated assets, limited player-specific relevance, no structured wvw/pvp, over-reliance on RNG and procedureal generation. They've done a great job with the resources they had, but this ain't no triple A title.

3) There is a clear passion for this genre. I grew up on the first Star Trek series, and conventions went on for years before movies and sequel series developed. People still speak in Klingon. Pretty crazy stuff. Watching Kirk fight with Abraham Lincoln next to him is pretty dopey, but people will go through a ton to get their space opera fix.

 

[Jex =TE=]

I like it, still learning now after four years.

Subnautica spoiler for growbed :

Spoiler

Swim in a direct line with the aurora's engine and you'll find an island on the island you'll find the outdoor growbed plus plantpots for indoor, plus food plants.

That's the tradeoff, subnautica excellent exploration of a small area but once it's done it's done. ED is literally galactic in scale but lacks intricate handcrafted area's a few kilometers across.

You can't have both in one game. The more intricate the detail is the less volume of it you get.



You can't have defend the station without destructible stations, you can't have destructible stations or you'll have no stations due to people being people plus related meltdowns. You could have a CZ around a station, but the attackers would get slaughtered by the station if it's guns were on and if they were off people would say their immersion hurt. Thargoid attack would be different I suppose, wait and see with that.

Escort the NPC is one of the most boring broken and frustrating quests you can ever get in a game.

Not sure I want to click the spoiler lol but thanks - I'll have to think about that one

ED is gigantic but not really if you think about it. All it has is mostly nothing, right? 99.9999% of each system is literally nothing.

On top of that, you have a handful of planet and star textures - seen one, seen em all type of thing. So whereas in ED I've seen everything in a week in Subnautic I actually have things to explore and I've not even explored 10% of the ocean.

So yes, technically ED is bigger but subnautica feels so much bigger due to the trenches, small cave systems, large cave systems, all the difference flaura and fauna, even water colour and different environments (mushroom tree forests).

We can have defend the station if the Thargoids are hitting them with their. We could against AI as well if it was a war. a player should not be able to attack destroy a station so all PF members have inbuilt inhibitors that prevent accidental fire (or intentional) on a station - see, you can make up anything to get around stuff

Escort missions can be boring and they mostly should be. The threat of attack should be the thing, especially if the client needs to go into dangerous areas. However, I'd like ED to be a game where the escort mission WAS the most boring - get rid of the crap passenger missions and delivery missions. Also, make it challenging where the AI will try different tactics - have wing escort missions and you could also vary them by having things like the trader runs out if fuel or there's a reactor leak and you need to rescue them - plenty of things to spice it up.

 

[sorcer3r]

Escort the NPC is one of the most boring broken and frustrating quests you can ever get in a game.

But there is a bunch of things wrong if a space game can not even handle npc escort gameplay.


ps: escort missions can be a real challenge in flight combat sims.

 

[Malbek]

I tried the new version of X3 last time it was on sale because I wanted to keep playing a space flight game but wanted a break from Elite. Needless to say I was jamming that refund button after about 45 minutes and loading up Elite instead.

 

[Roybe]

Counterpoint, Engineers and the new C&P system.

However by making such sweeping changed to the fundamentals have caused so much whine and salt you'd think people didn't WANT changes to the fundamentals. Terminator NPCs after 2.1 gave NPC's Engineered bits. (To this day the Dangerous, Deadly, and Elite ranked NPC's STILL have some of those terminator changes.) And a new more complex C&P that enforce consequences.

When you look at the overall game, and the long standing complaints, these do nothing to address those complaints. From 'modes', to grind, to poor PVP implementation, etc. etc. none of these issues are addressed...because the devs have built the game to their idea of what a game is supposed to be...and these 'problems' are seen as features.

 

[Stigbob]

Not sure I want to click the spoiler lol but thanks - I'll have to think about that one

ED is gigantic but not really if you think about it. All it has is mostly nothing, right? 99.9999% of each system is literally nothing.

On top of that, you have a handful of planet and star textures - seen one, seen em all type of thing. So whereas in ED I've seen everything in a week in Subnautic I actually have things to explore and I've not even explored 10% of the ocean.

So yes, technically ED is bigger but subnautica feels so much bigger due to the trenches, small cave systems, large cave systems, all the difference flaura and fauna, even water colour and different environments (mushroom tree forests).

We can have defend the station if the Thargoids are hitting them with their. We could against AI as well if it was a war. a player should not be able to attack destroy a station so all PF members have inbuilt inhibitors that prevent accidental fire (or intentional) on a station - see, you can make up anything to get around stuff

Escort missions can be boring and they mostly should be. The threat of attack should be the thing, especially if the client needs to go into dangerous areas. However, I'd like ED to be a game where the escort mission WAS the most boring - get rid of the crap passenger missions and delivery missions. Also, make it challenging where the AI will try different tactics - have wing escort missions and you could also vary them by having things like the trader runs out if fuel or there's a reactor leak and you need to rescue them - plenty of things to spice it up.

Yeah that spoilers a proper spoiler if you want to do it yourself.

Space is mostly empty, but I know what you mean. The thing is I expect huge open world games to have lots of little bits of PG stuff because of the type of game they are, and smaller games to have more detail.

A sliding scale
Subnautica : small and very intricate
X-games : medium sized reasonably intricate great at being a space mogul
Elite : astronomically huge fantastic flight model, but not full of smaller details

Or a post apocalyptic FPS comparison
Borderlands very shallow cartoony repetitive loot generator
Metro 2033 corridor shooter very atmospheric high quality FPS (also a good book)
Fallout slightly naff FPS but with loads of quests RPG'ing and quirky humour
Stalker grim dark gritty jack of all trades master of none
Rage : pants how not to do it

They are all good games/series in their own way except rage which was a massive step backwards.

Different games for different things, only star citizen tries to be everything and it seems to be dead already.

But there is a bunch of things wrong if a space game can not even handle npc escort gameplay.

ps: escort missions can be a real challenge in flight combat sims.

When done well they are, but can also be the absolute worst.

Freespace2 they are fantastic, Starlancer they were awful due to the broken targeting controls and endless "story" via radio chatter.

 

[XW_Ziggy]

Star Citizen is years away,

∞ years

 

[Jex =TE=]

But there is a bunch of things wrong if a space game can not even handle npc escort gameplay.


ps: escort missions can be a real challenge in flight combat sims.

This - a basic part of most space ship games and ED cannot even handle it. So in a universe that's as cutthroat as ED we're meant to logically believe there are no traders wanting escorts.

Did anyone even try putting more than a seconds thought into the game design?

 

[Jex =TE=]

Yeah that spoilers a proper spoiler if you want to do it yourself.

Space is mostly empty, but I know what you mean. The thing is I expect huge open world games to have lots of little bits of PG stuff because of the type of game they are, and smaller games to have more detail.

A sliding scale
Subnautica : small and very intricate
X-games : medium sized reasonably intricate great at being a space mogul
Elite : astronomically huge fantastic flight model, but not full of smaller details

Or a post apocalyptic FPS comparison
Borderlands very shallow cartoony repetitive loot generator
Metro 2033 corridor shooter very atmospheric high quality FPS (also a good book)
Fallout slightly naff FPS but with loads of quests RPG'ing and quirky humour
Stalker grim dark gritty jack of all trades master of none
Rage : pants how not to do it

They are all good games/series in their own way except rage which was a massive step backwards.

Different games for different things, only star citizen tries to be everything and it seems to be dead already.



When done well they are, but can also be the absolute worst.

Freespace2 they are fantastic, Starlancer they were awful due to the broken targeting controls and endless "story" via radio chatter.

OK so this got me thinking. Why can't a PG game also incorporate handmade assets? Imagine a PG generated terrain with hills, forests, rivers, mountains, hills, meadows... then add in something that places a POI. For example, you're walking along and come across an old house that unbeknownst to you has a cave system under it. The POI is laid over the PG generated terrain.

In ED, there's no stars going supanova, no planets blow in half. It's pretty much exactly the same but in a slightly different order everywhere you go.

Additional - SC is dead? Haven't really been keeping up with it. It'd be nice to see a release though.

 

[Stigbob]

OK so this got me thinking. Why can't a PG game also incorporate handmade assets? Imagine a PG generated terrain with hills, forests, rivers, mountains, hills, meadows... then add in something that places a POI. For example, you're walking along and come across an old house that unbeknownst to you has a cave system under it. The POI is laid over the PG generated terrain.

In ED, there's no stars going supanova, no planets blow in half. It's pretty much exactly the same but in a slightly different order everywhere you go.

There are quality hand crafted bits like engineers Dav's Hope and the guardian sites, it's just not going to be everywhere or thickly clustered together.

It's like the moon people want to land on it (so do I) so hand craft a few of the most famous bits and PG the rest I'd be happy with that. However that would lead to a huge meltdown because it would never be accurate enough in comparison to easily available real moon maps to satisfy a legion of pedantic nerds pointing out tiny differences between the game version and the plot of moon their drunk uncle got them as a present once.

 

[Jex =TE=]

There are quality hand crafted bits like engineers Dav's Hope and the guardian sites, it's just not going to be everywhere or thickly clustered together.

It's like the moon people want to land on it (so do I) so hand craft a few of the most famous bits and PG the rest I'd be happy with that. However that would lead to a huge meltdown because it would never be accurate enough in comparison to easily available real moon maps to satisfy a legion of pedantic nerds pointing out tiny differences between the game version and the plot of moon their drunk uncle got them as a present once.

And who cares about them? Nobody so why would a competent development give two hoots either. so 0.01% of the players don't like the moon - go suck an egg lol.

They're not going to affect anything so we can discount them imemdiately. They also won't leave the game because it's all they have so again, nothing to worry about.

The handcrafted stuff is amazing, but that's down to the art and sound team. Let's ignore the good looks and think of ED with the graphics of Evochron Legacy - now does it seem so good? No it sucks still but now you don't have the long legs and the big.... to look at

So more handcrafted stuff and more stuff to find out there.

I want to explore. I don't care for the boring gameplay but if there was a reason to explore I'd be playing ED. It would be even better if explorers could find massive deposits of gold or other precious commodities and relay that back to the community. That benefits other players.

Right now though, if I decide to do "j" simulator I know I'll get a few yellow stars, some red stars, some brown planets, some beige planets, some blue planets and that is literally it. Once you know what's in the library, giving it to you randomly still means you've seen it all before.

 

[Stigbob]

And who cares about them? Nobody so why would a competent development give two hoots either. so 0.01% of the players don't like the moon - go suck an egg lol.

They're not going to affect anything so we can discount them imemdiately. They also won't leave the game because it's all they have so again, nothing to worry about.

The handcrafted stuff is amazing, but that's down to the art and sound team. Let's ignore the good looks and think of ED with the graphics of Evochron Legacy - now does it seem so good? No it sucks still but now you don't have the long legs and the big.... to look at

So more handcrafted stuff and more stuff to find out there.

I want to explore. I don't care for the boring gameplay but if there was a reason to explore I'd be playing ED. It would be even better if explorers could find massive deposits of gold or other precious commodities and relay that back to the community. That benefits other players.

Right now though, if I decide to do "j" simulator I know I'll get a few yellow stars, some red stars, some brown planets, some beige planets, some blue planets and that is literally it. Once you know what's in the library, giving it to you randomly still means you've seen it all before.

I've been out on huge exploration trips and I like it, but I have to be in the mood. I spend more time faffing in asteroids and driving my SRV than honking.

 

[Dakron Nova]

I quite like the x-series (well perhaps not so much the last one but still play it)

I would rate that along side ED.