PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[Red Anders]

you might in a high player count system meet enough players to work that, but it simply isn't practical to PvP even with those stats, heck not even if it was 30:1 with PvP, it would be significantly easier to find 30 and more npc's then several players to repetitively kill, and would take longer and be more troublesome.

I'm guessing you posted that before I edited my post to reply to the second comment but yes, I agree that it's not practical. Like I said, the combination of P2P and instancing is a killer. I would say though that you're looking at the game as it is now; whereas the whole point I was making is that if there was a greater incentive to participate in open, the chances are that the numbers of players doing so would increase, albeit probably not by enough.

As someone who participates in powerplay frequently, I do think it would be better as an open only thing, but I think the entire PP system would need an overhaul as well as many aspects of PVP in order for it to work as an open only thing.

You'll be way more clued up on PP than me as a regular participant but yep, it's obvious even to me that it wouldn't be as simple as just tweaking a few things, that's why I said the chance to change it from what it is now (which has always looked like a missed opportunity to me) into something more meaningful is probably gone already just because of the amount of dev time that would be needed for what is currently at least a minority interest. Shame because it's only ever going to remain a minority interest as it is now.

I've often thought I'd probably enjoy either a board game or a pen and paper roleplaying game designed by the team who put much of the basic systems for the game in place because they seem to be fairly good at creating those kind of mechanics. Those systems can work well in computer games, not just in RPGs (where two of the best I've ever played, Baldur's Gate I & II pretty much directly ported the AD&D 2nd edition rules) but for the underlying mechanics of many other genres too.

In this one though, I think they were employed a bit too heavily and the focus is too often on pushing counters around a board when some aspects of the game would benefit from the primary mechanic being kicking the board over and shoving it down someone's throat.

We're back to problems with the sheer size of the game and the P2P architecture there though. I mean you could deal with some of the problems by making PP activity focused much more tightly on just a few systems each cycle, which would remove some of the issues around it being difficult to even find and engage with other players to begin with but really the whole thing would need a rewrite from the ground up and even then I'm not convinced that you'd have a viable end product. I think it's probably going to remain something that a majority of players just sign up to for a few weeks to pick up the special modules and then move on from.

 

[ryan_m]

Players conducting peaceful activities in prosperous, stable systems SHOULDN'T have to consider their own safety...because in any "Internally Consistent" Sci-Fi universe there would be little/no danger in those systems (anymore than I need to worry about getting car-jacked tonight as I head out onto the M6) They don't feel threatened by NPCs...because they act in an "Internally Consistent" way...attacking PCs with cargo/bounties/missions...rather than just randomly "because they're PCs"

The system you're describing doesn't exist, so there's no point in arguing about it. FDev have clearly set up security in a way that they like. Go to a Hi-RES in a high sec system and there's still pirates. The game doesn't conform to your idea of it.

Essentially you're saying...even if your activities take place in prosperous, stable systems with active security forces...the only build you can choose is a highly engineered PVP build (likely unsuitable for the myriad activities Elite Players enjoy...Mining/Trade/Exploration/Mission Running/Surface Prospecting etc...outfit for any of those activities and you'll be sub-optimal for combat...and therefor a victim) NPCs aren't a legitimate threat to anyone

You don't have to have a PvP build, you just need to put a shield with decent strength on your ship and have the SKILL to escape. It's not hard. I could teach you to escape in less than an hour with a nearly stock ship.

It doesn't lead to complacency...as an expectation that the elite Universe is consistent IE I'll be attacked if I give other a REASON to attack me...rather than I'll be attacked because I'm a PC not an NPC..because YOU KNOW...Salt

It absolutely leads to complacency because you can actually fly around in a shieldless T7 in solo and face no real threat from the NPCs. That's ridiculous.

You are the exact person I'm talking about in that post, btw. Too risk averse and too complacent in a ship that faces literally no danger from anything OTHER than another player.

 

[DaggerSnake]

I’ve been trying to understand why the vast majority of people are not interested in PvP in Elite Dangerous.

I haven’t read every page of this thread, but going back to the OP. Was the way this is being measured defined anywhere?

 

[Riverside]

I haven’t read every page of this thread, but going back to the OP. Was the way this is being measured defined anywhere?

Hah! At last, the point

No, this whole thread is pointlessly based on pure speculation.

 

[el3m3ntz3r0]

I think one of the reasons why pvp isn’t popular is due to the lack of incentives to engage in pvp. Perhaps bounties placed on player X for killing player Y should be substantially higher for player Z to come along and claim.

I also think that player X should be locked to playing in Open so they will be forced to eventually pay for their crime at the hands of player Y or Z or any other player. I also believe that player X should have a long “cool down” before they can log out and have their ship can disappear from the instance they are currently in I leased docked. I would say 30 minutes.

I don’t think this would solve all of the problems, but it would add more risk to attacking another player for no reason. What I am laying out is purely just for the event of player X attacking player Y for no reason.

Just my two cents.

P.S. Choosing open is giving concent to being attacked by other players. Every time I choose open I know I am giving that concent. I don’t expect other players around me in open to accommodate my wishes.

 

[Mike Reacher]

The system you're describing doesn't exist, so there's no point in arguing about it. FDev have clearly set up security in a way that they like. Go to a Hi-RES in a high sec system and there's still pirates. The game doesn't conform to your idea of it.




You don't have to have a PvP build, you just need to put a shield with decent strength on your ship and have the SKILL to escape. It's not hard. I could teach you to escape in less than an hour with a nearly stock ship.

If it takes you an hour, you can't be a very good teacher.

It absolutely leads to complacency because you can actually fly around in a shieldless T7 in solo and face no real threat from the NPCs. That's ridiculous.

Yes it is ridiculous because mabe 10 NPCs turn up to shoot you. Like they did to me today. Tanked Python. 4 pirates. all dead. 4 more pirates. All dead. 4 more pirates. Damn. I better run. Did so.

You are the exact person I'm talking about in that post, btw. Too risk averse and too complacent in a ship that faces literally no danger from anything OTHER than another player.

Must be flying in PVP then. Plenty of action in solo.

Hah! At last, the point

No, this whole thread is pointlessly based on pure speculation.

Yeah. I hate it when people speculate that there are no elite NPCs in solo. Thats just Horse Feathers.
My tanked Python takes a beating when 2 or 3 NPC Anacondas attack me.

I suppose the speculaters speculate that there are no pirates in solo that fly Anacondas, Corvettes and Pythons. Keep speculating, people. You might get it right one day.
Meanwhile, I'll keep fighting the many NPCs that want me to DIE ...

 

[Red Anders]

It absolutely leads to complacency because you can actually fly around in a shieldless T7 in solo and face no real threat from the NPCs. That's ridiculous.

That is absolutely true. I can fly around in a stock Hauler in solo, get interdicted by an npc Elite FDL and I'm like 'ho hum'. That should be close to a death sentence regardless of whether it's PVP or PVE. Other than an ill-advised attack on a Thargoid in a poorly built (and ineptly flown) Gunship I can't even remember the last time I lost a ship to an npc.

 

[ryan_m]

Must be flying in PVP then. Plenty of action in solo.



Yeah. I hate it when people speculate that there are no elite NPCs in solo. Thats just Horse Feathers.
My tanked Python takes a beating when 2 or 3 NPC Anacondas attack me.

I suppose the speculaters speculate that there are no pirates in solo that fly Anacondas, Corvettes and Pythons. Keep speculating, people. You might get it right one day.
Meanwhile, I'll keep fighting the many NPCs that want me to DIE ...

If you're engineered and can actually fly, no NPC in this game is a threat outside of the Thargoids, and they're only a threat because they have special weapons, not because they can fly better than you.

 

[frostypaw]

Many would agree that the NPCs should be tougher.

Trouble is the number of people who've farmed NPCs and gotten inflated combat ranks is pretty high.... If they were to unnerf the NPCs brains they'd have to work out some system whereby people lose combat rank and/or the game tracks a hidden 'real' combat rank so as to balance what NPCs to send against them and avoid the slaughter of before.

 

[Red Anders]

Many would agree that the NPCs should be tougher.

Trouble is the number of people who've farmed NPCs and gotten inflated combat ranks is pretty high.... If they were to unnerf the NPCs brains they'd have to work out some system whereby people lose combat rank and/or the game tracks a hidden 'real' combat rank so as to balance what NPCs to send against them and avoid the slaughter of before.

Didn't they already give players who asked a one-time combat rank reset? No reason they couldn't do that again, problem solved. If you are actually OK at combat you'll burn back through the low ranks in no time by taking out strong npcs and if you're not good enough your combat rank will be exactly where it needs to be.

You're right that the biggest problem with rebalancing npc difficulty isn't that some of us currently find it too easy, it's that some players find it too hard.

 

[MottiKhan]

Didn't they already give players who asked a one-time combat rank reset? No reason they couldn't do that again, problem solved. If you are actually OK at combat you'll burn back through the low ranks in no time by taking out strong npcs and if you're not good enough your combat rank will be exactly where it needs to be.

You're right that the biggest problem with rebalancing npc difficulty isn't that some of us currently find it too easy, it's that some players find it too hard.

Yes, FD will reset your combat rank if you open a ticket and ask nicely. They reset my combat and trade ranks once. I'm close to asking for another reset. Not sure if they'll do it again, but it doesn't hurt to ask. If not, there's always a self-reset.

 

[Ktonos]

sorry but this seems odd.

1: considering the attacker is basically the deciding factor here and the trend seems to be to attack those where very little is risked (or at least the problematic 'pvp' is about that), yeah, attacker isn't really 'risking' much. And yeah, there aren't things 'motivating' PvP, because Elite is not based around PvP, it is not a PvP game, it is a PvE game, where you 'can' attack others, but the game itself does not care, the only value is the one that the fighters find from fighting other players, to the game itself npcs and players doesn't really matter. Heck with 3.0 we are getting the first ever separation of players and npc's when it comes to showing trade routes, allowing to see npc or player routes.
2: ....no, you are effectively saying "those not wanting to participate in PvP are killing PvP"? and no that's not how it works, you can't lose what never was there, and forcing people will just make them leave entirely?
3: don't go after people that tend to do that, the trend seems to be situations again where attacker chooses a weak target, and in that case, what else can they do, they clearly aren't enjoying being at the mercy of someone who enjoys overpowering others? in real PvP where both parties are involved and there's actually a risk of losing to both? yeah I don't think those people combat log, and if they do........yeah, dunno.

I did not judge whether or not solo mode and combat logging are good or bad, and I refrained to do so solely because it will trigger responses that will force the discussion to depart from the matter at hand, which is why is PvP not popular in ED.
So, do you believe that if 1) there only was Open mode, and 2) there were no means to combat log, PvP in the game would become more popular, less popular, or would it be unaffected?

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

… If you are actually OK at combat you'll burn back through the low ranks in no time by taking out strong npcs and if you're not good enough your combat rank will be exactly where it needs to be.
…

Problem with that is that combat in Elite Dangerous as more to do with gear than with skill.

Make NPCs harder and the only result you get is the exposure of the complete imbalance of the combat aspect of this game. It ruined PvP and stronger NPCs would just ruin PvE too (or if you want, ruin it more than it already is).

 

[Red Anders]

Yeah. I hate it when people speculate that there are no elite NPCs in solo. Thats just Horse Feathers.
My tanked Python takes a beating when 2 or 3 NPC Anacondas attack me.

I'm sure it does. Unless you're running 5D unengineered thrusters on your Python though, the only reason you're having it out with three Anacondas to begin with is because you decided to. Sure you might lose that fight but to simply avoid losing your ship, all you had to do is go 4-2-0 and press boost twice.

That's my point. We actually create the risks for ourselves.

 

[lenna]

2. Solo mode kills PvP. That is regardless if solo mode is "right or wrong". I don't want to go there. But I think it is undisputed that Solo kills PvP.

Not even close, solo and Private Group allow people to play on their own or co-operatively - it does not kill PvP, it allows people not interested in PvP to enjoy the game their way... as FD intended, just go to the Hotel California thread if you think otherwise.

3. Combat logging. Even if you want to engage a cmdr, first thing popping in the mind must be .. "even if I end up winning he might combat log". Again, the target might not do so, but the thought is there.

Combat Logging does not kill PvP, there are many potential reasons for Combat Logging (none of them excuse the breach of the EULA/Code of Conduct) but fundamentally while it does affect those that currently PvP it is almost certainly not the primary reason that people don't PvP.

1. When you engage a commander you have more to lose and less to gain compared to engaging an NPC.
There are few in game things to actually motivate you to attack another cmdr. I mean, what...he has a meagre bounty? No . I can find an npc with less skill and worse ship with a higher bounty. The only thing to gain is the satisfaction you killed something harder than an npc. At the same time chances you will get killed are higher. And if you get killed you will lose your insurance cost.

Why should PvP be foisted upon those that have little or no interest in it? As you point out the greater rewards come from PvE engagements and with the 3.0 C&P changes the scales will be tipped slightly in the victims favour. As of 3.0, those that engage in in-game illegal acts that induce a bounty (whether PvE or PvP) will encounter greater PvE resistance and be subjected to higher PvE consequences. FD are allowing some loop holes to this but fundamentally ED is a PvE title at it's core.

Increasing rewards or lessening the penalties for PvP activities is not going to encourage more players to engage in it and as FD have stated that ED is a "play it your way" type PvX title, PvPers can give up on ANY hope of main game features being either mode locked or have their rewards adjusted according to the mode that people play in. Likewise, I think PvEers can give up on ANY hope of an official co-operative PvE mode with PvP disabled by game mechanics. The current status quo regarding PvE v. PvP and game modes in general is here to stay.

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

The biggest issues I have with PvP
1) Fights take way too long.
2) I just don't like the FDL, and that's the stale meta.

 

[Darty]

You'll be way more clued up on PP than me as a regular participant but yep, it's obvious even to me that it wouldn't be as simple as just tweaking a few things, that's why I said the chance to change it from what it is now (which has always looked like a missed opportunity to me) into something more meaningful is probably gone already just because of the amount of dev time that would be needed for what is currently at least a minority interest. Shame because it's only ever going to remain a minority interest as it is now.

Yeah, powerplay is basically screwed at this point. It's poor initial implementation means that it requires major work, but since it needs major work most players aren't interested, and since most players aren't interested it won't get much attention. Unless powerplay can find some way to ruin the game for the majority of the playerbase like engineers did, it's not going to get any dev attention any time soon.

 

[Red Anders]

Yeah, powerplay is basically screwed at this point. It's poor initial implementation means that it requires major work, but since it needs major work most players aren't interested, and since most players aren't interested it won't get much attention. Unless powerplay can find some way to ruin the game for the majority of the playerbase like engineers did, it's not going to get any dev attention any time soon.

See also: Multicrew. You're spot on; both of them suffer from being locked in a vicious circle of disinterest and relatively inoffensive failure.

 

[MottiKhan]

The biggest issues I have with PvP
1) Fights take way too long.
2) I just don't like the FDL, and that's the stale meta.

The FDL is a thing of beauty.

 

[Mohrgan]

The FDL is a thing of beauty.

I prefer it's wreckage.