Why small ship maneuverability is useless Pt.1

[kofeyh]

That was a common argument in Battlestar Galactic Online. Big ship pilots didn't like us fighter pilots getting into and sticking in their blind spots and pew pewing away at them for 10 minutes. All they had to do was jump away, or actually mount point defense weapons better suited to attacking small ships.

My opinion on the matter is the same as it was in Battlestar Galactica Online. If a player in a small ship can get in close and stay in a blind spot, then they should be allowed to do so. If they do destroy a big ship like a Vette, then it's the Vette pilot's own fault for being a moron and sticking around as long as they did. Just my 2 cents.

To be fair, a single 4 million ship should have some serious issues destroying a half billion dollar warship. But all is not lost, with the missile damage buff, the new rail gun mod that makes SCB assisted-suicide it's just got considerably easier for a single small ship.

Should an entire wing of small ships be able to swarm and take down a large? Sure, if they work as a group. But a single small fighter should have an exceedingly difficult time (medium being slightly less of a challenge given larger hardpoints) destroying something that is potentially hundreds of millions of credits more in value. Combat in this game is now very clearly becoming all about small ships being able to effectively neutralize large ships with minimal effort.

I'm not sure that's really a good ideal to aim for, if you want larger ships to be added and used; who will drive them into battle? For trade? Sure; build enough shield capacity to survive FSD cool down and high-wake jump time and you're set. Meanwhile we have Rail-De-Lances that are considerably more of a threat than a Corvette or Anaconda. Maybe this is to make ship-launched fighters have more value; but unless we can mod the weapons (hello SCB nuker) in them, they will provide some minor amusement in the form of explosive popping sounds, but that's about it.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

To be fair, a single 4 million ship should have some serious issues destroying a half billion dollar warship. But all is not lost, with the missile damage buff, the new rail gun mod that makes SCB assisted-suicide it's just got considerably easier for a single small ship.

Should an entire wing of small ships be able to swarm and take down a large? Sure, if they work as a group. But a single small fighter should have an exceedingly difficult time (medium being slightly less of a challenge given larger hardpoints) destroying something that is potentially hundreds of millions of credits more in value. Combat in this game is now very clearly becoming all about small ships being able to effectively neutralize large ships with minimal effort.

I'm not sure that's really a good ideal to aim for, if you want larger ships to be added and used; who will drive them into battle? For trade? Sure; build enough shield capacity to survive FSD cool down and high-wake jump time and you're set. Meanwhile we have Rail-De-Lances that are considerably more of a threat than a Corvette or Anaconda. Maybe this is to make ship-launched fighters have more value; but unless we can mod the weapons (hello SCB nuker) in them, they will provide some minor amusement in the form of explosive popping sounds, but that's about it.

Not really. That was the whole purpose of Dumbfires, Torpedos and is still the purpose of Cannons.

Basically this is an argument about why Bombers and Strike craft shouldn't be able to destroy a big lumbering battleship. They want rock, paper, scissors but don't want to acknowledge that these strike ships are the scissors to their paper battleship. The game needs more ships between the Python and Anaconda to fill this gap, giving the battleships something they're good at, in addition to giving them more of a role. Right now they're a liability because they're working under the same ruleset as the smaller ships and there are no real large ships to demonstrate just how nasty the large ships in Elite can be. As PC Gamer, or was it IGN put it... Tech Demo in progress. When they move beyond the game being a tech demo to an actuall full fledged game, perhaps things will change.

Additionally, they should increase wing sizes to 8 or 16. ED imposes such unrealistic limitations upon it's self that it's often it's own worst enemy.

 

[Andragon]

Because the players with the big ships are constantly interdicting my Imperial Courier, fire on sight and then complain on the forums when I 15sec out of combat?

So basically the guy interdicting you is immediately flying backwards while you are trying to escape? Thats kind of a stunt there

 

[Soopyyy]

It doesn't make any sense at all, for a ship with small hardpoints to attack a Corvette class ship head on and hope for victory on its own.
The "Big" ships we have in game, aren't big.
Look up what a Corvette is in any Navy through-out history and you'll see the Elite concept of a Corvette is already fairly cumbersome given its name sake.

I have no objection at all to the smaller ships being give greater speed and agility. In fact I think they desperately need it. For an Eagle to defeat a Corvette, the pilot should have to be ridiculously talented but his ship should also allow him the performance to maneuver effectively as well and unfortunately the small ships simply don't currently.

 

[kofeyh]

Not really. That was the whole purpose of Dumbfires, Torpedos and is still the purpose of Cannons.

Basically this is an argument about why Bombers and Strike craft shouldn't be able to destroy a big lumbering battleship. They want rock, paper, scissors but don't want to acknowledge that these strike ships are the scissors to their paper battleship. The game needs more ships between the Python and Anaconda to fill this gap, giving the battleships something they're good at, in addition to giving them more of a role. Right now they're a liability because they're working under the same ruleset as the smaller ships and there are no real large ships to demonstrate just how nasty the large ships in Elite can be. As PC Gamer, or was it IGN put it... Tech Demo in progress. When they move beyond the game being a tech demo to an actuall full fledged game, perhaps things will change.

Additionally, they should increase wing sizes to 8 or 16. ED imposes such unrealistic limitations upon it's self that it's often it's own worst enemy.

Pretty much. It's a small ship game. That's okay, we just have to accept that that is the case. Large ship combat isn't really going to work as is. 2.1 basically reinforces small ship combat and the direction frontier are going. Large ships have value as freighters and general purpose. It leaves corvette as this weird overgrown Vulture, that doesn't really have any purpose because it's one driving design goal - fight - isn't potentially going to remain viable.

When launchable fighters appear, large ships will be relegated to support (survive long enough to dump fighters and run) and general purpose non-combat roles.

Presumably 'wings' is Frontier's interpretation of co-op? Which is usually smaller numbers. The usual 'make a group to go rumble this week's dungeon boss'; only we don't have those. Unless you count large ships? Which are more an unfortunate Grue, than some lethal dungeon boss.

 

[Mephane]

It doesn't make any sense at all, for a ship with small hardpoints to attack a Corvette class ship head on and hope for victory on its own.
The "Big" ships we have in game, aren't big.
Look up what a Corvette is in any Navy through-out history and you'll see the Elite concept of a Corvette is already fairly cumbersome given its name sake.

I have no objection at all to the smaller ships being give greater speed and agility. In fact I think they desperately need it. For an Eagle to defeat a Corvette, the pilot should have to be ridiculously talented but his ship should also allow him the performance to maneuver effectively as well and unfortunately the small ships simply don't currently.

I agree that an Eagle shouldn't just go ahead and destroy a Corvette, but if it comes to a fight, the Corvette (or Anaconda, or Cutter) should win through sheer toughness, the use of turrets, or good timing for the precious few moments they may get the Eagle in their sight. Not by neutralizing the Eagle's agility by doing backward turns.

Ideally, a fight Eagle vs Corvette should be a stalemate - the Eagle does hardly sufficient damage to be a threat, the Corvette has hardly any chance to hit the Eagle. Both ships are in different leagues and should typically ignore each other and go for more appropriately sized targets.

That said, it is my opinion that both the Anaconda and the Corvette are too agile given their size anyway.