Modes Will 3.0 Increase, decrease or have no effect on Open population?

[Goose4291]

And solo/group players do not have an advantage, for there is no guarantee that you can intercept another player by ending up in his/her instance anyway.

Chance of encountering Player opposition (Open) vs. Absolutely no chance of encountering player opposition (Solo/PG).

Yep. No advantage there whatsoever. I Wonder why the powerplay haulers run unshielded big 3 builds full of merits in Solo/PG then?

*Cough*

Let me underline this again for you.

I didn't say that. What I said is that issuing penalties like people on the forums were clamouring for (i.e account bans) is a ridiculous punitive measure for 'cheating', when Frontier hadn't declared the exploit as such at the time when the offenders used it. This is why I support the idea of account bans/shadow bans for combat logging AFTER it was declared as cheating by FDev, but not before.

 

[Jockey79]

Oh great! Now look what you guys have done! You pushed Jokey into posting the wall of info about Modes!

You have no idea how good that felt!

How long has it been since my last Wall post.

And Jockey... nobody clicks a link that says it's a wall of text. Pretty rude to assume we all want to see it anyway.

I remember the days I had to post it every 25 posts to prove the modes were part of the original design.
So much information and reiteration from Frontier that they support the mode system and want it..... yet so many haven't a clue.

 

[Mouse]

Judging from the replies of some of you guys who are dedicated group/solo players nothing has changed. Which I predicted every time the subject of "We need a c&p system!" came up: that nothing would change, relevant to well established player mode grouping. Which is funny, because it's been your crowd clammoring for it. It begs the question why bother developing c&p systems that don't benefit anyone? Looks like a waste of time and money to me.

The added irony: well Jason, who said that it even SHOULD bring people back into Open?!? I never said that!

You claim we are "Dedicated" Group/Solo yet fail to realize many of us are not... we are dedicated PVE... huge difference. And what would probably bring many to Open and negate groups like Mobius.. a way for us to PVE without being subject to those who would rather PVP us.

 

[Jockey79]

You claim we are "Dedicated" Group/Solo yet fail to realize many of us are not... we are dedicated PVE... huge difference. And that would probably bring many to Open and negate groups like Mobius.. a way for us to PVE without being subject to those who would rather PVP us.

^^ This is a great point. I have no problem with being sociable, but I'm a PvE player. Make Open PvE and I'll only ever use the other modes for docking in a hurry.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

That the separate modes are part of the original and current designs, doesn't counter the PVP/PVE disparity argument.
That actually supports it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Chance of encountering Player opposition (Open) vs. Absolutely no chance of encountering player opposition (Solo/PG).

Yep. No advantage there whatsoever. I Wonder why the powerplay haulers run unshielded big 3 builds full of merits in Solo/PG then?

Which comes back to the fundamental issue - players do not require to engage in direct PvP, no matter how much those that prefer direct PvP might wish them to.

On relative risk between modes, Sandro said this:

I think you are perhaps conflating two separate issues: the amount of challenge present in each game mode, and player versus player interactions. I think these are so fundamentally different that comparisons might not be particularly useful.

The challenge of playing in solo being too low (without taking sides) is a valid argument to make, although it might better be phrased as "the opportunities for challenge are too low in Elite Dangerous". It's actually something we are interested in looking at.

However, cranking up difficulty will not make Open more enticing. Conflict between actual people, even within a game, is a very different matter to taking on NPC ships. It has many psychological and social elements that would otherwise not be present. Incidentally, increasing the difficulty of NPC engagements would also make Open harder rather than fairer, so there's also that.

 

[Jockey79]

That the separate modes are part of the original and current designs, doesn't counter the PVP/PVE disparity argument.
That actually supports it.

Oh, how so?

What about the "everyone has access to everything" point in relation to the game being fair (regardless of PvP / PvE) ?

 

[Goose4291]

Which comes back to the fundamental issue - players do not require to engage in direct PvP, no matter how much those that prefer direct PvP might wish them to.

Which is the odd thing, because Powerplay at its core was seemingly built for that reason.

It'd be like if someone built a Battle of the Atlantic game where you could play as Destroyers, Merchant Ships or U-Boats, where the allies 'win' by getting a sufficient amount of supplies across the pond, and the Merchant ships could select a mode where they don't face U-Boat attacks.

On relative risk between modes, Sandro said this:

And we all remember how a large vocal percentage reacted when the AI could actually fight back for that one glorious week where the game became great again.

 

[Jockey79]

And we all remember how a large vocal percentage reacted when the AI could actually fight back for that one glorious week where the game became great again.

Ahh, that one week I actually looked behind me in my Type 9.
That one week I had guns on my Type 9.
When I actually worried about being pulled over by NPCs.

I miss that week.

 

[Goose4291]

Ahh, that one week I actually looked behind me in my Type 9.
That one week I had guns on my Type 9.
When I actually worried about being pulled over by NPCs.

I miss that week.

I was a little disgusted with the knee jerk reactions calling for SJA's job as well as her every name under the sun outside of the official forums, however the complaints made my day.

"Dear Frontier, I usually sit stationary in my Anaconda with prismatics and full shield boosters with turreted pulse lasers in a CZ and have no issue, however after todays update......"

 

[Roybe]

I was a little disgusted with the knee jerk reactions calling for SJA's job as well as her every name under the sun outside of the official forums, however the complaints made my day.

"Dear Frontier, I usually sit stationary in my Anaconda with prismatics and full shield boosters with turreted pulse lasers in a CZ and have no issue, however after todays update......"

https://media1.tenor.com/images/2330436f6a697bc75e58d76fc7bba15c/tenor.gif?itemid=3611770

I'll never forget "The NPC's are to tough because I can't figure out what they are doing, so they are unfair for us PVP players!"

 

[Jockey79]

I was a little disgusted with the knee jerk reactions calling for SJA's job as well as her every name under the sun outside of the official forums, however the complaints made my day.

"Dear Frontier, I usually sit stationary in my Anaconda with prismatics and full shield boosters with turreted pulse lasers in a CZ and have no issue, however after todays update......"

https://media1.tenor.com/images/2330436f6a697bc75e58d76fc7bba15c/tenor.gif?itemid=3611770

I remember it well.
Rather annoyed me, MOM is awesome.
She is the only person from Frontier I follow on Twitter.

I really wanted to tell people "it's called Dangerous for a reason".... but I've shot that down so many times here, I thought best not to do it, lol

 

[Mouse]

Chance of encountering Player opposition (Open) vs. Absolutely no chance of encountering player opposition (Solo/PG).

Yep. No advantage there whatsoever. I Wonder why the powerplay haulers run unshielded big 3 builds full of merits in Solo/PG then?



Let me underline this again for you.

I think you actually need to read my posts before you quote them. At no point did I say the punishments doled out by FDev were ridiculously punitive. What I said was that the clamour and justification for stricter penalties by the community was ridiculous

Thank you for underlining it and for trying to change what you meant.. maybe you should actually READ your own quote as well before claiming others do not understand it.

Lets look at what exactly you said...

I didn't say that. What I said is thatissuing penalties (penalties are punishments unless there is a new definition that I don't know about) like people on the forums were clamouring for (i.e account bans) is a ridiculous punitive measure for 'cheating', when Frontier hadn't declared the exploit as such at the time when the offenders used it.

You didn't say that the clamor and such from the forums was ridiculous, you said that FDev issuing punishments as result of them were a ridiculous punitive measure.

Fdev issued penalties..they NUKED the accounts of those that exploited and dang well KNEW they were exploiting. They didn't need FDev to tell them they were exploiting . Then Fdev nailed them by wiping their accounts clean and making them start over from scratch such as you had to do. And you DID claim that those punishments were ridiculously punitive and added why you thought so because people on the forums clamored for punishments to be dolled out. So don't say "I didn't say that" when people can blatantly quote you saying it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which is the odd thing, because Powerplay at its core was seemingly built for that reason.

It'd be like if someone built a Battle of the Atlantic game where you could play as Destroyers, Merchant Ships or U-Boats, where the allies 'win' by getting a sufficient amount of supplies across the pond, and the Merchant ships could select a mode where they don't face U-Boat attacks.

That's one opinion.

From the man himself:

For fun

That said, it could be worth thinking about reducing the impact that solo & group players have on the political simulation.

Unlike community goals, Powerplay is a swinging balance - ie solo players are also balancing solo players.

And we all remember how a large vocal percentage reacted when the AI could actually fight back for that one glorious week where the game became great again.

Indeed - the time when we experienced multi-cannon RPS railguns, etc.. Destroyed in seconds with no real chance of escape.

 

[Seonid]

I'll never forget "The NPC's are to tough because I can't figure out what they are doing, so they are unfair for us PVP players!"

However since this is a game (and I've said this a few times), FD need to pitch NPC skills at the median skill level of the player base. Note that it's median, not average which are two completely different things.

 

[Jockey79]

But anyone who claims that solo/pg BGS groups don't have an advantage over groups who stay in open is either being disingenuous or is misinformed.

Or every one else is ignoring that you can block any player(s) who try to counter you with pew pew.

This isn't anything to do with people being dishonest, it's some PvP'ers ignoring how the game works and how it is built.
Even if the entire game was open only under it's current form - my entire clan can just block all your members / friends / support and cause havoc in your space - and there is nothing you can do about it.

The mode system just saves time managing block lists.
Apart from that, there is no way you can force yourself into my game (or vice versa)

 

[Jockey79]

But you have to know who it is you're blocking to block them.

No you don't.

You can just block anyone in your recent contacts list.
Or anyone showing in your currant instance.

As the old adage says; if your not working for me....

So if they aint in your clan / group - block em. Job done.

 

[Robert Maynard]

That's an awful lot of extra work for something that can be done with a single click, or a few clicks of whitelisting people into your group.

Unless there's something (other than player interactions) to be gained by playing in Open - as soon as there is an effect / reward disparity between the modes then there will be those that use the features available to all players for their advantage, time consuming as it may at first seem.

 

[jasonbarron]

Apart from it's far too early to decide the new C&P system a failure, what makes you think no one will benefit.
PvE pirates may enjoy the new system and you may even find some PvP'ers like it.

Only time will tell.



You don't lose some mystical prowess if you engage in PvE or use the mode system.
There are PvP'ers who use PvE as a tool to help enable PvP (earn fast credits, go engineering etc)- so you can do PvE and still be a PvP'er.



The argument over the modes wont stop because too many people blindly bought the game thinking it was Call of Duty in spaceships.
There was also an assumption the entire player base would be fish in a barrel, and that was never the case.
10 minutes in Google would have shown how multiplayer works in Elite and saved people from buying a game not suited to them.

As no one ever clicks the link in my Sig, here is "The Wall of Information" proving that;

________________________________________________________________


Before we get in to Frontier promoting and defending the mode system and mode switching for Elite: Dangerous (plus other related information), a quick look at the history of; and tech used to bring you this game (explains why some things are not possible).

https://youtu.be/EvJPyjmfdz0

Thanks to Roybe for for the link to the video.

The Wall of Information;

From the Kickstarter;
*And the best part - you can do all this online with your friends, or other "Elite" pilots like yourself, or even alone. The choice is yours...*
*you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends? Cooperate on adventures or chase your friends down to get that booty. The game will work in a seamless, lobby-less way, with the ability to rendezvous with friends
*Play it your way*
*Your reputation is affected by your personal choices. Play the game your way: dangerous pirate, famous explorer or notorious assassin - the choice is yours to make. Take on missions and affect the world around you, alone or with your friends.*
*You simply play the game, and depending on your configuration (your choice) *
*We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will,*

Some Dev comments from the Kickstarter;

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=44183&d=1434291446&thumb=1

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...omment-1681441
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...omment-1705397
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...omment-1705551




From the forum archives;
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6300

All Players Group– Players in this group will be matched with each other as much as possible to ensure as many human players can meet and play together
Private Group – Players in this group will only be matched with other players in the same private group
Solo Group – Players in this group won’t be matched with anyone else ever (effectively a private group with no one else invited)
(All by a Lead Designer)

Also DB on Multiplayer and Grouping and Single (01:00 - 02:01) Plus how the Galaxy will evolve over time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5JY...kuz6s&index=18
"DB explicitly said that solo players would be able to do community goals, though back then they weren't called that. Dev Diary Video #2, at the 4:10 mark."

DB on "Griefing" and "Griefers"
(Listen out for the part where FD can move them in to a private group of just each other)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5hqjxmf4M

Rededit Topic on "unusual event for players to come against players" (Twitch Video now removed, YT link for it below)
http://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangero...ayers_to_come/

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJzizYUEF9c EGX2014 Video, 30 minutes long)

Also, MMO does not mean "social" (It means lots of people connected)

Wikipedia;
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet. MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ.

Oxford English Dictionary (Online);
An online video game which can be played by a very large number of people simultaneously .

The Steam Store page;

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=54528&d=1439140722

Please note, "Single Player" and "Multiplayer" with "Co-op".
So not just an "MMO"


Dev comments;








E3 2015 Interview (17th June 2015);

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/0...-david-braben/

View attachment 98946

PowerPlay AMA related links regarding Modes and Powerplay;

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106524&page=27&p=1663438#post1663438
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140032&page=22&p=2145448&viewfull=1#post2145448
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140032&page=25&p=2145528&viewfull=1#post2145528

The overall thread topic (+ How XB1 fits);





And regarding the game design;




To highlight something from that above quote;

“You should do what makes you excited. I don’t want there to be a ‘right’ way, because then you’re not necessarily playing the way you want to play."

Here is a quote from Zac Antonaci for the "game is dying" pro-claimers.
Dated 10th July 2015;



And a nice, clear, concise comment from Michael Brookes regarding the modes;

Dev Update 6th August 2015 (https://community.elitedangerous.com/node/248);


(I added the bold / underline in the quote to highlight the last line)


Reddit AMA from X-Box One launch, in relation to the Back Ground Simulation and Modes;
https://np.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/3nlmdg/its_frontier_developments_developers_of_elite/

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=66445&d=1444135775&thumb=1

^^ So PC/Mac and X-Box One impact the same live simulation, but cannot actually play together or see each other.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=66450&d=1444136348&thumb=1

^^ X-Box One also has "Solo Mode" and is recommended by FD Devs for when you do not want to play with other people.

Horizons Live Stream;
(RE: Question about ED being an MMO)



Engineers Live Stream;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7tGV7VVlhE

Here is a post from Sandro Sammarco "musing" over a bonus to Open mode for Power Play;





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uetVzNINdKU;t=26m40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uetVzNINdKU;t=26m40s





Extra note on "Griefing" and posts by Sandro on the topic;




Some well made points made by forum user Sylveria;

My dude...I have no words. I repped you just because I couldn't think of a better response in the face of that magnificent wall of quotes and text.

 

[Gully Foyle]

Which is the odd thing, because Powerplay at its core was seemingly built for that reason.

It'd be like if someone built a Battle of the Atlantic game where you could play as Destroyers, Merchant Ships or U-Boats, where the allies 'win' by getting a sufficient amount of supplies across the pond, and the Merchant ships could select a mode where they don't face U-Boat attacks.

https://s26.postimg.org/bhfyvhh8p/19svgs.jpg



And we all remember how a large vocal percentage reacted when the AI could actually fight back for that one glorious week where the game became great again.

Bring evil NPCs back. Double those bounties. New playas will flip out.

Powerplay is meant to be where the serious PvP was intended, but its still knd of rough right now. Double those bounties too.