Will ED be too safe

[wiz]

Look, it's really simple. If you repeatedly fly into a dangerous area with a poor ship, you deserve to die. It is a valid choice to be a pirate.

Griefing is something else entirely.

I agree, but I see at least two weak points there:

1) killing players much weaker or inexperienced than yourself is not a challenge, so it should not be rewarded

2) what's to stop a “true griefer” (i.e. not a “legitimate, honest pirate”) from wandering into the so-called secure zones just for reaping noobs? Will there be superior police forces appearing out of nowhere? Without this, noobs won't be reasonably safe anywhere.

 

[Y2K]

After listening to interviews with DB and reading the forums I'm a bit concerned that the measures taken to instance griefers away from others will take the danger and surprise and frustration out of the game. I personally believe that you feel a greater sense of reward through toil and hardship. If things are easy then then what is the point. It doesn't make you strive to do better next time.

I for one imagine a scene where a griefer is known to be killing in a particular region. A group of players decides to ambush him by having one person in the group bait him to jump through his supercruise bubble...to emerge into space where the baiter's friends are ready to ambush. This would teach him/her a lesson but also be a reward and a very real element to the game of working as a team.

What are your thoughts on this ?

+1 what he said The way its going might aswell rename it Elite : Safe

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I agree, but I see at least two weak points there:

1) killing players much weaker or inexperienced than yourself is not a challenge, so it should not be rewarded

2) what's to stop a “true griefer” (i.e. not a “legitimate, honest pirate”) from wandering into the so-called secure zones just for reaping noobs? Will there be superior police forces appearing out of nowhere? Without this, noobs won't be reasonably safe anywhere.

There will be police forces in safe systems. Their reaction time is still open to debate, we haven't seen any clarification, in past those where seconds, now I will guess it will take a little bit more time, but under minute.

 

[Bromley86]

1) killing players much weaker or inexperienced than yourself is not a challenge, so it should not be rewarded

2) what's to stop a “true griefer” (i.e. not a “legitimate, honest pirate”) from wandering into the so-called secure zones just for reaping noobs? Will there be superior police forces appearing out of nowhere? Without this, noobs won't be reasonably safe anywhere.

1. They just need to rejig the Elite rating for this. So instead of 1 kill=1point, have something like the Elo system where you get more points for killing a higher ranked player.

2. In game mechanism. As you say, Federal (or Imperial) naval forces will jump in and kill the griefer. He'll then have the cost of his bounty deducted from his insurance payout, meaning he has a pants ship. This is one of the best arguments against direct player to player credit transfers, to prevent rich friends funding a griefer.

Eventually, if it continues, the griefer (someone who's been manually determined by FD to not be playing within the spirit of the rules of a game that actually encourages piracy and murder) will just be moved out of the ALL group. They might not even be informed of this and can continue as they were if they can find a fellow exile to irritate.

 

[kvmetternich]

With only 5 systems and only a little part of the game implemented all the discussion about "griefing , PvP etc." are completely pointless because based on nothing .

Personally, im all for an hardcore way. Safe zones must be REALLY safe and dangerous zone must be REALLY dangerous.
Players must be responsabilized about where they decide to go and what to do.

 

[Robert Maynard]

....rules of a game that actually encourages piracy and murder....

Piracy is a part of the game and will still gain the pirate a bounty. Murder can, of course, happen but it will have more significant consequences. Piracy should not end in murder, I believe that a pirate's reputation will suffer if it did. Except for factional fighting, only bounty hunters are free to destroy other ships if (and only if) they have a bounty on them.

 

[stevesideas]

With only 5 systems and only a little part of the game implemented all the discussion about "griefing , PvP etc." are completely pointless because based on nothing .

Personally, im all for an hardcore way. Safe zones must be REALLY safe and dangerous zone must be REALLY dangerous.
Players must be responsabilized about where they decide to go and what to do.

That's exactly the way I would like it. You make your own decisions about the life you want to live inside ED and not have the server do it.

 

[wiz]

1. They just need to rejig the Elite rating for this. So instead of 1 kill=1point, have something like the Elo system where you get more points for killing a higher ranked player.

My point exactly: encourage fair competition between players of similar levels (or high-risk, high-reward when taking on a stronger opponent), and discourage uneven matches, aka griefing.

If the star systems are reasonably well laid out, there should be “safe enough” zones for players of all equipments and all skills, although I'm not sure how one could pick a side between the big factions.

For example, let's say I'm an inexperienced player starting out in Federal space, but I'd really like to join the Empire because I think it's much cooler: would there ever be a safe path from the core Federal systems to the core Imperial systems? My guess is that there would be an independent/anarchic (therefore dangerous) buffer zone in between. So, perhaps one should pick his side very early on and only risk his Sidewinder: switching sides later on would be much riskier.

 

[Herik]

Tell that those that try to get any credits and being frustrated by griefers that have a better ship better equipment.

PvP is fun for everybody aslong both are equal.

MMO-Styled PvP is no PvP its a grieferhaven.

The moment PvP goes into the "frustrate others" its bad and everyone should have a choice to enter or not enter it, so i welcome what ED wants to archiev.

PvGriefers is getting even worse in games were you can lose stuff and need to work again for the stuff. We have enough examples for that behaviour in gaming.

EVE Online: you think its fun hitting a "Content" wall because there are enough player that can take the cost of a loss, but those they kill cant take it and starting over again.
Ultima Online: Same thing PvGrievers were so hard that they lost player because of them. Sure those on the other side of the stick were happy but the victims not and left (Older times), they were even forced to make a PvE World (Trammel) and PvP World(Felucca) destinction.

DayZ: nice game, but gets pretty fast to the "bored player shooting new players"

WarZ: (or how the hell its now called) same stuff.

Rust: same thing stronger bully weaker because of fear of loss
It will become a bully game Strong vs Weak, because the strong fear to lose there status when they try to attack equal players.


ITs really funny if you think about it, how games show the "ugly" side of Humannature. Survival is everything, even in a game, if you fear it, kill it.

Spoken like it is! +1

 

[Herik]

Considering how Elite's MP is planned, I'd say the only people who should be concerned about it are those who would like to make profit at the expense and abuse of other players that do not wish to have their money and game experience put in jeopardy. Having to act like a normal, reasonable person in an online game about spaceships! I can see the culture shock among certain communities of like-minded individuals.

That won't mean, however, that their tears will be less delicious to me.

Ahh yes....the tear lovers; they'l have a place to cry among themselves.

 

[Bromley86]

My point exactly: encourage fair competition between players of similar levels (or high-risk, high-reward when taking on a stronger opponent), and discourage uneven matches, aka griefing.

An uneven match does not equal griefing!

"A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways."

Griefing is, for example, deliberately placing your ship between a player and the station when he's trying to land.

A combat example. Shooting someone as they emerge from a station is not griefing. Why not? Because the game will put a bounty on you and you will have to deal with the consequences. Why would a sane person do it then? If there was an assassination contract out on the player, you might be willing to become illegal in that system in order to fulfill it.

However, if a player manages to find an exploit (i.e. they transfer credits from a safe, trader account to their griefing account, or they find a way to game the grouping system to escape justice) that allows them to sit outside any station they want to and spend an hour killing players (newbs and Elites alike), then that's griefing.

 

[Herik]

I would love to participate in this beta but the theme of your title sums it up for me.

Deep concerns about the p2p networking component of the game.

Deep concerns about the "groups" mechanism and exploits.

Until I see concrete examples of these systems once finalized and the myriad of cause and effect issues that will come about I must remain a pessimistic spectator.

A certain group of supporters seem to think that most will play in the original spirit of elite and those that don't or this group is not comfortable with will be tidily tucked away in the closet and forgotten about.

It seems that someone is grossly underestimating the ingenuity of modern min/max types in the gamer culture and they are not going to play happy, happy, joy, joy like some of the people seem to think here.

'The "groups" mechanisms and exploits': Exploits wouldn't be (much) of a problem. The possible 'Exploit' of this could only be if one or more characters were not being honest with the others regarding their intentions. This would only happen once. The offending character(s) would be known. No more threat to that group. Sure those dishonest character(s) could look for other naive target groups, but at this point that's just game play. Rather interesting at that.

 

[Herik]

After listening to interviews with DB and reading the forums I'm a bit concerned that the measures taken to instance griefers away from others will take the danger and surprise and frustration out of the game. I personally believe that you feel a greater sense of reward through toil and hardship. If things are easy then then what is the point. It doesn't make you strive to do better next time.

I for one imagine a scene where a griefer is known to be killing in a particular region. A group of players decides to ambush him by having one person in the group bait him to jump through his supercruise bubble...to emerge into space where the baiter's friends are ready to ambush. This would teach him/her a lesson but also be a reward and a very real element to the game of working as a team.

What are your thoughts on this ?

Steveideas; the instancing of griefers is a good one. They will have more danger, surprise, and frustration among themselves.

 

[Herik]

My thoughts?

This is not EvE and I'm not flying a dime a dozen shield tanking Drake with my mates sitting off grid looking for an easy n00b kill of the unaware. Lets get something straight, any "griefer" or lets just say homicidal pilot out there doing what you suggest? They are going to be keyed up on baiting, they are not going to fall for it so that imaginary teamwork you got going on there, simply is not going to happen in that form.

The reality is, all this stuff has been tried, tested, perfected and mastered in places like EvE. There are thousands out there that will be trying to do the same thing, what they've done over there in EvE here. The mechanics may be different but the core idea and format is exactly the same. This means only the n00b pilots will be getting hit like this, will be getting frustrated by this.

Now, if you think frustrating young, naive pilots is a good thing ... well ... the SA has a place for you on their forums I'm sure.

So true; PacalB.

 

[Herik]

If players aren't allowed to kill other players than this game would be extremely boring and I'd rather go play something else, "safe" zones would be so incredibly dull.

If you don't want pvp play offline, that's an option.

Or online singleplayer, or carefully chosen grouped online....

 

[Y2K]

With only 5 systems and only a little part of the game implemented all the discussion about "griefing , PvP etc." are completely pointless because based on nothing .

Personally, im all for an hardcore way. Safe zones must be REALLY safe and dangerous zone must be REALLY dangerous.
Players must be responsabilized about where they decide to go and what to do.

Agree 100%