Will I ever be able to get out of my ship?

[Jack Dalton]

I tried the "From Other Suns" beta on Oculus this last weekend and I must say, just being able to walk around your ship in VR is an amazing experience. I would be content for a long time with just that. Don't even need to make us float around, just give us some magnetic boots and be done with it

 

[GSRTrent]

Space legs, walking around ships, planet surfaces, star ports etc... would be a dream come true for me. So, space legs, atmospheric landings and underwater bases are some of the main things I want to see in ED.

 

[Tadeus72]

They're about the same size; both companies have about 350 employees.

Well, I confess I only checked wiki and linkedin. How did you find 300 for CCP?

 

[Kaocraft]

We have a fantastic game about flying spaceships...Why would you ever want to get out of it??

I dont see people have this debate for racing games or flightsims.

People get way excited when an FPS adds the ability to drive vehicles, though.

 

[Ambroza]

Well, I confess I only checked wiki and linkedin. How did you find 300 for CCP?

Actually, I think I was looking at outdated info. You may be right.

 

[VR jefranklin18]

For the last year or so, Frontier have acted kind of bummed or even irritated when the topic of walking around has been brought up. I'd like to see some of that Kickstarter-era enthusiasm and ambition return.

To be fair, they have said broadly the same about atmospheric planets. It's kind of hard to guess what the future holds for this game.

I really hope that "no ETAs, no guarantees" does not get used much on Saturday. It would be pretty insulting to those that shelled out and made the journey.

 

[Lightspeed]

"To add this rather heavy feature without meaningful activities around it would be a disservice to you guys"

Meaning: "It's a lot of work and we can't be bothered, so we will pretend we are doing you a favor."

 

[CMDR Corlas]

We have a fantastic game about flying spaceships...Why would you ever want to get out of it??

I dont see people have this debate for racing games or flightsims.

As a long-time flight-sim fan, I strongly disagree. The ultimate idealized sim-environment has always been a unified everything-sim. I remember sims developers as far back as 1995 talking about how they planned to achieve this. Games like ARMA 3 are awesome, despite lacking a lot in the sim-department, specifically because they accomplish this goal.

 

[evanevery]

I don't want to get out of my ship. I want to play my video game from a comfy seat in my cockpit like God intended...

 

[Vasea Azure]

There was and advanced tech demo of walking in stations for Eve Online including chatting with other ppl, shopping etc, they've wasted months, silly amounts of investments and employed a lot new people in several locations only to find out they would need much much more money, time and people to actually create and maintain any meaningful content for it and CCP is two times bigger than fdev. The same is happening now with Star Citizen - years of development 100+ millions $ and we are still looking at the same spaceport, just this time the npc walk around. And the game area of SC is microscopic and very sparsely settled compared to ED's Galaxy.

Xrebitrth had a lot of problems because the devs left the old game model of very cool spaceships for walking around inside your ship and in stations. The development time which should be spent on the core game was wasted on new elements that became boring and annoying after a weak. There are currently a lot of popular mods that let you skip this whiole part. That's also the reason why this was the first x game since years where you only had one ship to fly and not dozens - because they wouldn't have the resources to model all of them from the inside. It was weak because it was some strange space mixture instead of a good space ship game like the previous ones that had their development targers set correctly.

This 'vision' is not new at all and is the bane of spaceship games since forever (before that we had Battlecruiser 3000AD with the exaxtly same scenario playing out)

You have a good points but there is a one big difference. Unlike X or SC we already have established and working (most of the time ) core game plus planetary landings, FD dont need to do everything at once. This is why I agree with Sandro - SL are way off and its ok because otherwise like you said it could be a disaster. We also have working in game SRV mechanic, I cant see why in the future FD couldn't implement working SL mechanics.
As far as SL project in EVE - yeah I know about it but it was doomed from the start, wrong addition to wrong game from the start.

 

[Besensec]

We also have working in game SRV mechanic, I cant see why in the future FD couldn't implement working SL mechanics.

Once you get a handful of SRVs together in one instance, things get very glitchy. The game barely supports multiple SRVs on planets, and barely supports Multicrew (they cant even get SRVs to work with MC). So now imagine trying to do something similar inside a moving ship. If SL is coming, my bet is that it is unlikely that it will include big groups of people or walking around a ship as a crew, which was one of the major selling points when talking about Space Legs back in the day.

This crops out a big portion of the "meaningful activities" that SL could offer. And since the game is being built completely neglecting a future with SL, I don't see a way for it being implemented without breaking the balance or without having to revisit, modify or adapt the mechanics that are already in-game, without making half of the player-base angry because the game would no longer be the one they used to own.

The perplexity with which FD talks about it only shows that is just not part of the plan, that they haven't figured it out, and that they keep working on the game without it in their minds. They keep putting blocks (AKA placeholders) one on top of each other, to only find out later that they cant work on them without having the other pieces collapse. So, in the end, it is just something "they would like to do", the same way I would like to be a Jedi Master, is just that is not part of my plan and either is Space Legs for Frontier.

 

[lefty1117]

Poster above touches on it, I think the biggest issue with walking around would be that the game's underlying architecture wouldn't be able to support it. And to be honest, I just think it's too late for the game. It's well beyond launch now and new content is coming in the form of DLCs. "Space legs" has to be treated as more than just DLC, it's basically a new game, and without a kickstarter to go with it I can't see FD really gearing up to do it properly. What would be worse is if they went the multicrew route and gave us something very basic, glitchy and without a lot of practical need or use. In fact it's multicrew in particular and how that turned out (massively misread by the company in terms of desire for the feature, glitchy implementation, questionable decision making) which has soured me on the potential for space legs. I just don't think FD is up for it, and would be better served continuing on with the smaller DLC packs and fleshing out what is already there. A revamp of Powerplay and its integration into the story lines and BGS would be ideal, imo. But space legs, basically building a new 1st person game and attaching it to ED? I'd love to be proven wrong but I don't think this is the right thing for the company or the game.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Poster above touches on it, I think the biggest issue with walking around would be that the game's underlying architecture wouldn't be able to support it. And to be honest, I just think it's too late for the game. It's well beyond launch now and new content is coming in the form of DLCs. "Space legs" has to be treated as more than just DLC, it's basically a new game, and without a kickstarter to go with it I can't see FD really gearing up to do it properly. What would be worse is if they went the multicrew route and gave us something very basic, glitchy and without a lot of practical need or use. In fact it's multicrew in particular and how that turned out (massively misread by the company in terms of desire for the feature, glitchy implementation, questionable decision making) which has soured me on the potential for space legs. I just don't think FD is up for it, and would be better served continuing on with the smaller DLC packs and fleshing out what is already there. A revamp of Powerplay and its integration into the story lines and BGS would be ideal, imo. But space legs, basically building a new 1st person game and attaching it to ED? I'd love to be proven wrong but I don't think this is the right thing for the company or the game.

Elite feet or space legs, whatever we want to call it will be a major paid for expansion. It will never be a minor DLC.

 

[Enderby]

I doubt that there'll ever be walking about in ED. Unless it was a really shallow implementation and FD said that they'd develop it if people use it. In its current state no one would and it would just exist there in the game.

Which would then just have been a waste of everyone's time and money.

Actually, no, I take it back. Perhaps we will see it added after all.

 

[Dakron Nova]

Space Legs is something I've not been bothered with either way to tell you the truth, but been waiting for this topic to come up again as I have been thinking about how it could be implemented. The problem as FD have pointed out is not introducing space legs, but the game-play needed to support it.

I think its fair to say that FD have been burnt a little since the release of ED with accusations of in game place holders, or lack of depth in general so are not going to want to go down this route again, and also I suspect for there decision to make "Season 3" a focus on core game-play and fleshing out parts of the game.

With this in mind, how could you and what would you need to do to introduce space legs?

Features

1. I suspect that game-play would have to focus on space based and planetary points of interest.​

1.1 These would have to be either hand crafted or procedural generated. To avoid having to create 100's on manually built POIs I suspect procedurally generated would be needed​

a. Planetary Bunkers?​

b. Derelict Space Wrecks?
c. Space Stations?
d. So many more.....​

1.2 You would need hazards and obstacles (puzzles) so add challenge into these locations.

​

2. You would need to come up with things to do.​

2.1 General scavenging?
2.2 Find the item for a mission?
2.3 Get something back online?
2.4 Fix something?
2.5 But the above are all variants, explore, find and carry out action - could become repetitive.​

3. Tying into the current game - How would this work with the current game?​

3.1 Solo and Online?
3.2 Server capacity?
3.3 Existing mission systems, faction influence, rewards etc
3.4 Community Goals around these?
3.4 Linking these activities together, chaining activities.​

The above is no way even a complete list so I can imaging coming up with the assets even for procedural generated levels would be a huge job to even keep enough variety for the short terms, let alone the technical requirements and programming. But then you might want to add in Caves, manual ship repair etc

You would be in effect creating a First Person game which had the potential to be as big as ED was at launch. I don't know the inner workings of the COBRA engine its limitations etc but this cant be a quick or easy job. What would be the Return on Investment? You could spend millions on this and easily two years or more with a fairly decent size team only to find time moves on and the number of people left playing the game or purchasing it wont return anything.

Anyway just my thoughts, sure theres a lot more to it than I have thought of.

​

 

[Lightspeed]

Poster above touches on it, I think the biggest issue with walking around would be that the game's underlying architecture wouldn't be able to support it. And to be honest, I just think it's too late for the game. It's well beyond launch now and new content is coming in the form of DLCs. "Space legs" has to be treated as more than just DLC, it's basically a new game, and without a kickstarter to go with it I can't see FD really gearing up to do it properly. What would be worse is if they went the multicrew route and gave us something very basic, glitchy and without a lot of practical need or use. In fact it's multicrew in particular and how that turned out (massively misread by the company in terms of desire for the feature, glitchy implementation, questionable decision making) which has soured me on the potential for space legs. I just don't think FD is up for it, and would be better served continuing on with the smaller DLC packs and fleshing out what is already there. A revamp of Powerplay and its integration into the story lines and BGS would be ideal, imo. But space legs, basically building a new 1st person game and attaching it to ED? I'd love to be proven wrong but I don't think this is the right thing for the company or the game.

But isn't that the mental thought processes FD are trying to get us to accept? It's all too hard, so we will improve core game play and have small DLC updates, that way we are never too committed.

We should hold them to their commitment of what they were going to do when they launched the LEP.

This from "To Launch and Beyond with the Lifetime Expansion Pass":

"We have made no secret that our ultimate ambition is to be able to land on the surface of planets, as you were able to in the other Elite sequels Frontier and Frontier: First Encounters.

We want this feature to push the boundaries as we believe we are doing in other areas of Elite: Dangerous already, like space flight, combat, trading, sound, online, visual fidelity etc.

That means rich, varied experiences. Not just landing pads, but rich content on the surfaces, surface vehicles, the ability to stash things there, to explore. Clearly ‘doing it right’ like this will take time, but we have a plan and will get there via a series of meaningful releases.

We believe that each stage will be incredible, and the result truly breathtaking. What you will see on the worlds will be a mix of procedurally generated content, particularly the landscapes, cloudscapes, compositions and so on, mixed with hand-crafted elements.

We also plan to allow you to get up out of your seat and walk around your ship. You can see the level of attention and thought that has already been given to the ship interiors from these ship cockpit views in this video: "

Then comes all the things they were planning to do with legs on planets, already quoted previously.

I think we really need to push hard for this, because unless we do, I am getting the feeling FD will take the path that offers least resistance, rather than the ambitious way that fulfills their promise.

And later again in the official newsletter, used to promote the sale of expansion passes: http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=dcbf6b86b4b0c7d1c21b73b1e&id=ac1081437f

"Look at all this awesome stuff we are going to add, now buy the expansion pass!". Different from "we'd like to do it but" or "it's too much work".

This is the source courtesy of Askavir

 

[Besensec]

And later again in the official newsletter, used to promote the sale of expansion passes: http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=dcbf6b86b4b0c7d1c21b73b1e&id=ac1081437f

"Look at all this awesome stuff we are going to add, now buy the expansion pass!". Different from "we'd like to do it but" or "it's too much work".

"All is ready for you to walk around your ship". Fac dat shiet.

"Of course walking round your ship will be nice, but it is the just springboard for a very significant expansion of gameplay – you will be able to experience the inside of starports and interact with other players and AI characters, and even board other people’s ships in space and take them by force, as shown in this concept piece." Fac ol dat shiet, olofit.

 

[Vasea Azure]

Than propose a big DLC theme that we old players and new ppl would be interested in. SL - too hard, Atmospheres - too hard. Then what will keep money flow to keep servers going, cosmetics? They ended one aseason, no more seasons will be made so all is left are DLC or subscriptions. In order for ppl to buy DLC it better be good new content. So I ask, what would you buy that its not "too hard" to make

 

[lefty1117]

@Lightspeed I don't disagree with your premise, but I guess I'm shook pretty hard by the multicrew result in particular. Not only did they have technical issues with it, and still do, but the actual desire for the feature and the way it was implemented seems to have been a complete miss. We told them for weeks and weeks we wanted AI multicrew. Many people stated they had no interest in MP multicrew and it was likely to go unused. That is exactly what has happened. Furthermore when you look at systems like Wings, Powerplay, CQC and probably a couple more I'm missing, there is a similar pattern of the result not matching what we've asked or in some cases what we were told. And we've heard that systems that aren't used aren't going to be further developed. Now space legs is going to be much more complex than these when you think about what is really involved. What makes us think they can deliver without a massive new round of investment? Perhaps they already have that in the works - that would be a welcome surprise. But as they currently stand do you really feel good about their ability to deliver such a massive change to the game based on track record? I think the window for such monumental change closed when the game launched and the initial round of funding was over. Just like the window for the network architecture did - probably the single most limiting decision for the game in terms of what can ultimately grow to be.

 

[Lightspeed]

@Lightspeed I don't disagree with your premise, but I guess I'm shook pretty hard by the multicrew result in particular. Not only did they have technical issues with it, and still do, but the actual desire for the feature and the way it was implemented seems to have been a complete miss. We told them for weeks and weeks we wanted AI multicrew. Many people stated they had no interest in MP multicrew and it was likely to go unused. That is exactly what has happened. Furthermore when you look at systems like Wings, Powerplay, CQC and probably a couple more I'm missing, there is a similar pattern of the result not matching what we've asked or in some cases what we were told. And we've heard that systems that aren't used aren't going to be further developed. Now space legs is going to be much more complex than these when you think about what is really involved. What makes us think they can deliver without a massive new round of investment? Perhaps they already have that in the works - that would be a welcome surprise. But as they currently stand do you really feel good about their ability to deliver such a massive change to the game based on track record? I think the window for such monumental change closed when the game launched and the initial round of funding was over. Just like the window for the network architecture did - probably the single most limiting decision for the game in terms of what can ultimately grow to be.

Funnily enough, those three things you mention: Powerplay, CQC, Multicrew were not mentioned for the LEP (unless I have missed something). I know David Braben wanted the Powerplay, so it was introduced. But CQC came out of the blue, and Multicrew was, as you say, not envisaged by us without NPC crew.

They appear to have allowed themselves to get distracted from The LEP Plan, and they need to get back on course.