Will I ever be able to get out of my ship?

[MrFailfactory]

A fair number of things that have been mentioned in this thread were reality in Jump to Lightspeed back in 2006ish. The POB's (Portable OBjects, aka Multi-Crew ships) had full interiors that could be decorated, and locations throughout the ships that served for making needed Repairs. Some parts worked out really well (the decorating, cruising with friends, and the scale of the ships, notably), but the Combat and the Repair were not so-well received. With the exception of Telepresence and ambulation, the Multi-Crew in that game worked very similarly to what we have now, but the Repair gameplay was something they could never get right.

They couldn't get it right because it's impossible to balance - it either takes too long, isn't effective enough to be worth it, or it's (nearly) instant and OP. There is no in-between, and it just doesn't work very well in Combat. Outside of Combat is a different story, but to be perfectly honest, any kind of manual Repair should be focused on Combat, and not anything else simply due to frequency of need. It really doesn't matter how long it takes to manually Repair out in the black, and not much more on a Trade run.

I'm not a legs hater - quite the opposite, in fact. I would like to be able to walk around in my ship, and place some decorations/furniture. I would like to actually walk back and climb into the SRV, or drop down a hatch into the Fighter cockpit, even though it would make those activities take a lot longer. I would like to be able to leave some (temporary) footprints on a planet surface, or stand next to a lake and watch a sunset.

Despite wanting these things, I have vision enough to get past my own desires, and realize that this particular one isn't coming any time soon, and quite frankly, it shouldn't. Talk all you want, but at some point most of you are going to have to accept the reality that just being able to walk around our ships is not, in fact, going to be good enough. Not only that, but once any form of ambulation is put into the game, Frontier will have to deal with a relentless pounding asking for more things to do with legs, and more places to do it. An unending assault because they gave an inch. This is going to be one of the last things to be developed, if it gets made at all.

I would also recommend using some real-world measurements so that you can see just how big some of our ships really are. Think about walking (or tirelessly jogging) the length of those for any reason on any kind of frequent basis. Consider the size of most of the installations and space stations as well.

Here's one image that I stumbled on, just for fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/585n6q/the_cutter_is_the_size_of_a_cathedral/

An image of measurements (in meters): https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...p_scale_table_with_dimensions_box_volume_and/

Think about that.

Riôt

 

[Goose4291]

A fair number of things that have been mentioned in this thread were reality in Jump to Lightspeed back in 2006ish. The POB's (Portable OBjects, aka Multi-Crew ships) had full interiors that could be decorated, and locations throughout the ships that served for making needed Repairs. Some parts worked out really well (the decorating, cruising with friends, and the scale of the ships, notably), but the Combat and the Repair were not so-well received. With the exception of Telepresence and ambulation, the Multi-Crew in that game worked very similarly to what we have now, but the Repair gameplay was something they could never get right.

They couldn't get it right because it's impossible to balance - it either takes too long, isn't effective enough to be worth it, or it's (nearly) instant and OP. There is no in-between, and it just doesn't work very well in Combat. Outside of Combat is a different story, but to be perfectly honest, any kind of manual Repair should be focused on Combat, and not anything else simply due to frequency of need. It really doesn't matter how long it takes to manually Repair out in the black, and not much more on a Trade run.

I'm not a legs hater - quite the opposite, in fact. I would like to be able to walk around in my ship, and place some decorations/furniture. I would like to actually walk back and climb into the SRV, or drop down a hatch into the Fighter cockpit, even though it would make those activities take a lot longer. I would like to be able to leave some (temporary) footprints on a planet surface, or stand next to a lake and watch a sunset.

Despite wanting these things, I have vision enough to get past my own desires, and realize that this particular one isn't coming any time soon, and quite frankly, it shouldn't. Talk all you want, but at some point most of you are going to have to accept the reality that just being able to walk around our ships is not, in fact, going to be good enough. Not only that, but once any form of ambulation is put into the game, Frontier will have to deal with a relentless pounding asking for more things to do with legs, and more places to do it. An unending assault because they gave an inch. This is going to be one of the last things to be developed, if it gets made at all.

I would also recommend using some real-world measurements so that you can see just how big some of our ships really are. Think about walking (or tirelessly jogging) the length of those for any reason on any kind of frequent basis. Consider the size of most of the installations and space stations as well.

Here's one image that I stumbled on, just for fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/585n6q/the_cutter_is_the_size_of_a_cathedral/

An image of measurements (in meters): https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...p_scale_table_with_dimensions_box_volume_and/

Think about that.

Riôt

Youve got me all nostalgic now.

I miss my YT-2400.

 

[kofeyh]

So when is Frontier going to add meaningful gameplay for which "space legs" could take advantage?

Right now?

We might be able to walk around our ship, but I doubt all of the internal models are done; let's assume there are at best a few mockups to work out the required scale for assets in game. We might be able to walk around a station, but probably not because the station is essentially still an inner and outer hull, with nothing in between. So walk around the base of our ship? The assets look like they have enough detail to have some sense of scale, but a lot of assets like little vehicles and what not are all low poly approximations. We might be able to walk out of our ship into SRV; or have an animation to hop into the SRV but on any planet over about 2G we will be a feeble meat puppet barely able to move (the suit is good, but not that good). We won't ever hop into fighter, so there's nothing there to animate.

The bones are there; but the key thing is, after you've done this a bit - what's left? That's what Dale was observing. If it's just a cheap trick, and isn't useful, it won't be used. It's it's a lot of work for that. We have legs in SC, and it's still a really hilariously bad experience at times. Glitching through walls, falling, clipping. And to add all of the station detail needed to be able to walk in it, the details needed to model ever ship interior, every station interior. I mean here's where Planet Coaster would be useful from a code reuse perspective but it's still a ton of work.

Space legs aren't dead. But legs with no purpose? End up a dead feature. It's actually really promising the developer actually wants that work to mean something and have meaningful in-game use. Otherwise, it's just going to end up a dead-end effort. For all concerned. I can't imagine any of it, is a five minute job. It's going to be consecutive updates and entire releases to introduce something like this. It's big. Really really big.

I'd love legs. But I won't love a gimmick. And few else will either.

 

[V'larr]

That's really the crux of it, right? There's been extensive discussions about space legs all over the forums, and it's a difficult one to answer from our perspective. It's something we really, really want to do.... but if it doesn't add any long-term value, it's a lot of work for something that lacks meaningful gameplay. There was another thread on this that we were taking notes from with regards to the comparison to EVE's version of 'space legs'. Unfortunately that thread was lost as the OP requested his account to be removed and all posts he made to be wiped. Essentially it was a discussion regarding the feature being removed from EVE (if I recall the linked article correctly) due to lack of people using.

It's still something we'd like to do, but the focus after 2.4 will be improvements of core gameplay mechanics. To add this rather heavy feature without meaningful activities around it would be a disservice to you guys, and it's a hell of a lot of work for the dev team. My advice would be to work on the assumption that it'll be a ways off yet, because as has been mentioned many times before: to do it properly would be a whole new game within ED.

Well, if you guys want more notes to have...check out Dead Space 3 for how it handles player movement and transitioning back and forth from floating-in-space to not-floating-in-space. If there was that, but with Elite Dangerous (and no necromorphs, eek!), I'd call that a win.

As to things to *do* whilst space-legging it...I'm happy if it's small things like maintenance, searching a wrecked/crashed ship POI for survivor(s) (or loot), and being able to visit/walk around bits of the ports at the station, to start with. (Eventually I'd hope for the station stuff to be expanded on, to at least be like Mass Effect & the Citadel where fast travel gets you to new areas.)

What I might NOT like, is to see some goofy MMORPG-style crafting-and-equipment system...like, it might wind up being okay, but my hunch is it would feel out of place and possibly disjointed. Might be better to just be able to upgrade the EVA suit/buy hand-held weapons using a system that feels familiar, as in the ship outfitting.

Kind of depends what y'all decide to do with materials/data and the current magic-bag-of-infinite-holding-and-superfluosity thing we have going at the moment.

 

[MrFailfactory]

Youve got me all nostalgic now.

I miss my YT-2400.

What's that you say? The 1300? Yes, yes that must have been what you said

I miss a speed-setup Tie Aggressor with a really big gun in the back. A rage-inducing thing that was.

One wonders how well that would work in Open in this game.

Riôt

 

[Angus]

You're welcome, but Dale's reply represents FD's current thinking on this,

I don't think Dale claimed that to be the case.

The other things is this may well be a method of measuring player enthusiasm for Space Legs.

 

[wstephenson]

A fair number of things that have been mentioned in this thread were reality in Jump to Lightspeed back in 2006ish. The POB's (Portable OBjects, aka Multi-Crew ships) had full interiors that could be decorated, and locations throughout the ships that served for making needed Repairs. Some parts worked out really well (the decorating, cruising with friends, and the scale of the ships, notably), but the Combat and the Repair were not so-well received. With the exception of Telepresence and ambulation, the Multi-Crew in that game worked very similarly to what we have now, but the Repair gameplay was something they could never get right.

They couldn't get it right because it's impossible to balance - it either takes too long, isn't effective enough to be worth it, or it's (nearly) instant and OP. There is no in-between, and it just doesn't work very well in Combat. Outside of Combat is a different story, but to be perfectly honest, any kind of manual Repair should be focused on Combat, and not anything else simply due to frequency of need. It really doesn't matter how long it takes to manually Repair out in the black, and not much more on a Trade run.

I'm not a legs hater - quite the opposite, in fact. I would like to be able to walk around in my ship, and place some decorations/furniture. I would like to actually walk back and climb into the SRV, or drop down a hatch into the Fighter cockpit, even though it would make those activities take a lot longer. I would like to be able to leave some (temporary) footprints on a planet surface, or stand next to a lake and watch a sunset.

Despite wanting these things, I have vision enough to get past my own desires, and realize that this particular one isn't coming any time soon, and quite frankly, it shouldn't. Talk all you want, but at some point most of you are going to have to accept the reality that just being able to walk around our ships is not, in fact, going to be good enough. Not only that, but once any form of ambulation is put into the game, Frontier will have to deal with a relentless pounding asking for more things to do with legs, and more places to do it. An unending assault because they gave an inch. This is going to be one of the last things to be developed, if it gets made at all.

There's a lot of wisdom in this. When you acknowledge that the amount of gameplay and art required to do space legs right represents a Whole New Game, you realised that FD will only do it if they can market it as a Whole New Game with a corresponding number of sales. I doubt that bringing it out as an expansion to ED would be able to create that kind of splash. So maybe when JWEvolution is approaching done, they will think again of going big in the ED universe with a space legs expandalone game.

I would also recommend using some real-world measurements so that you can see just how big some of our ships really are. Think about walking (or tirelessly jogging) the length of those for any reason on any kind of frequent basis. Consider the size of most of the installations and space stations as well.

Here's one image that I stumbled on, just for fun: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/585n6q/the_cutter_is_the_size_of_a_cathedral/

An image of measurements (in meters): https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...p_scale_table_with_dimensions_box_volume_and/

Think about that.

I don't work for KONE, OTIS or Schindler, but ship scale makes me think about lifts. Lifts and little pneumatic passenger trains. Even the International Station has its Mobile Transporter on tracks.

 

[Louis Calvert]

I've been playing for just a few weeks. Though I know I can always get out of my ship in an SRV, I wouldn't mind being able to walk around in a space station. In fact, I'd love to be able to walk around inside of my ship. What's the point of having a door behind my seat if I can't go back there?

I'm not talking about running around to shoot things. I don't care for FPSs. I'd just like to be able to walk around some stations, interact with some NPCs, etc. I'd like to be able to get out, hop a tram, go talk to the various factions, etc. Maybe have some mysterious guy offer me a legally questionable shipping mission?

Like I said, I'm new. Maybe this is something antithetical to the elite series. Maybe this has been asked a million times. I'm just curious as to whether this is possibly in the future for the game.

I too am excited to have this in-game.

I've followed ED closely and there's a TON of interviews with Fdevs since right at the start and most of them say "walking around" (at least in station/ships, and maybe on planets/cities/everywhere) is one of the thing they'd like to see in-game. They also said it'll take time, they also said that the Holo-Me feature was the first step towards the end goal - so it seems to be still progressing.

There's a 10 year plan for the game, so I'd guess that Space Legs will happen before the end, but we're only on year 3 so far.

If it were me, honestly, I'd donate to a kickstarter or whatever to hire more devs to work on getting this feature done ASAP. I REALLY want this to be part of the game, it'll be epic. I also believe it'll bring in a lot more players, I have several friends who like the idea of ED, who like sci-fi, who want to play ED but they don't like "being a spaceship".

 

[Oktusha]

That's really the crux of it, right? There's been extensive discussions about space legs all over the forums, and it's a difficult one to answer from our perspective. It's something we really, really want to do.... but if it doesn't add any long-term value, it's a lot of work for something that lacks meaningful gameplay. There was another thread on this that we were taking notes from with regards to the comparison to EVE's version of 'space legs'. Unfortunately that thread was lost as the OP requested his account to be removed and all posts he made to be wiped. Essentially it was a discussion regarding the feature being removed from EVE (if I recall the linked article correctly) due to lack of people using.

It's still something we'd like to do, but the focus after 2.4 will be improvements of core gameplay mechanics. To add this rather heavy feature without meaningful activities around it would be a disservice to you guys, and it's a hell of a lot of work for the dev team. My advice would be to work on the assumption that it'll be a ways off yet, because as has been mentioned many times before: to do it properly would be a whole new game within ED.

You say it needs to have meaningful gameplay... Well you guys already have a ton of assets in game that would make it meaningful as is. We don't need to be able to walk around the entire station, just around the dock area and once you are ready to leave the area going through a door you hit a loading screen just like dropping from SC or to a planets surface to change the instance. Give us a common place or court yard that might have a couple shops, mechanic shops to upgrade our ships, or something along those lines where a few of us could meet on foot and mess around. Give those of us that want it a chance to get out of our ships to do the same things we do on the station services, and keep the station services for those that don't want to get out. Also something that could be taken advantage of are in fact what is in game now... Like the derelict ships on surface and in space. Let us get out and explore them, and perhaps find things of use to us either to upgrade our own ships, sell the info, or perhaps get to the bridge of the ship and collect it's drives that maybe have scanned solar system data that we can sell.

I went to see the crashed anaconda in Alshat on the moon A 6 b. Let me tell you I would have LOVED to get out and explore the buildings and the interior of the ship to see what I could find!!! Tell me it would not be meaningful or enjoyable gameplay to explore this on foot and find something...

Then you have all the bases, outposts, CQC assets, beacons, ships, and various other assets that are in game now that could be used to add a few extra things in game to make you WANT to EVA and find it. It only takes a tiny amount of imagination to make this something awesome. Now imagine finding a one of the generation ships or The Zurara and going in for yourself to investigate. Perhaps the crew of the Zurara let something hidden for someone to find in regards to what really happened before the crew died like Rebeca did... Another thing that could be awesome is having pirate ships NOT explode every dang time and maybe only part of the ship breaks up or simply goes dark. There is an opportunity to EVA to the ship and try to free slaves, take cargo, data, or if there is in fact shooting take the ship or parts altogether. Maybe not keep the ship but sell it as scrap or dismantled for engineering mats... Heck most of the assets that could make this awesome are already in game... So please do tell me how it would need to be meaningful again... Just PLEASE do not make it like multicrew where it is absolutely pointless in every way if you are actually trying to accomplish anything in game other than waste time...

 

[Louis Calvert]

Please have a look a this thread and speak up if you want Space Legs: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/372956-Would-you-kickstart-Space-Legs

 

[Oktusha]

Please have a look a this thread and speak up if you want Space Legs: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/372956-Would-you-kickstart-Space-Legs

Unfortunately you are not going to get what you want out of that thread... People are burnt out of getting half baked game play such as PP, CQC, and MC... Aside from CQC, PowerPlay and Multicrew could have been outstanding features that have barely touched or fix since release. I personally was excited for MC until I used it and found out what they actually did with it. I don't even see why they did it if it was going to be the way it is now. The question is the Devs stated they would like into developing it more if its used but NOBODY uses it because there is no point at all if you want to gain anything in game.

 

[Angus]

Another thing that could be awesome is having pirate ships NOT explode every dang time and maybe only part of the ship breaks up or simply goes dark. There is an opportunity to EVA to the ship and try to free slaves, take cargo, data, or if there is in fact shooting take the ship or parts altogether. Maybe not keep the ship but sell it as scrap or dismantled for engineering mats... Heck most of the assets that could make this awesome are already in game... So please do tell me how it would need to be meaningful again... Just PLEASE do not make it like multicrew where it is absolutely pointless in every way if you are actually trying to accomplish anything in game other than waste time...

Some excellent points, well made.

Hey, Frontier!

Found the audio for this on one of your trailers - the chap sounds pretty sincere, whoever he is - might be worth taking note:

" We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKWIJ-H-WxI

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Unfortunately you are not going to get what you want out of that thread... People are burnt out of getting half baked game play such as PP, CQC, and MC... Aside from CQC, PowerPlay and Multicrew could have been outstanding features that have barely touched or fix since release. I personally was excited for MC until I used it and found out what they actually did with it. I don't even see why they did it if it was going to be the way it is now. The question is the Devs stated they would like into developing it more if its used but NOBODY uses it because there is no point at all if you want to gain anything in game.

I am not so sure. Powerplay, CQC and MC where all updates. Surely Space legs would be a whole expansion with all the development time that went into 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 and 2.4 all going in to making Elite Feet, I can't see why it can't be feature rich.

Where Fdev went wrong regarding Season 2, was that it should have been all about planetary gameplay and fully fleshing that out instead of adding arbitrary updates like 2.2, 2.3 and possibly 2.4 that have not much to do with planetary landings. Just think if all that dev time for 2.2 and 2.3 was put in to planetary landings gameplay, it could have been superb. The explorers would have had all the gameplay that they needed, there could have been combat zones on planets and they could have added some kind of transportation networks from the bases to mining operations and add gameplay around these, with complete gameplay loops on planets, not just visiting them from time to time to get some materials, drop of some cargo or do the odd mission.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I am not so sure. Powerplay, CQC and MC where all updates. Surely Space legs would be a whole expansion with all the development time that went into 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 and 2.4 all going in to making Elite Feet, I can't see why it can't be feature rich.

Where Fdev went wrong regarding Season 2, was that it should have been all about planetary gameplay and fully fleshing that out instead of adding arbitrary updates like 2.2, 2.3 and possibly 2.4 that have not much to do with planetary landings. Just think if all that dev time for 2.2 and 2.3 was put in to planetary landings gameplay, it could have been superb. The explorers would have had all the gameplay that they needed, there could have been combat zones on planets and they could have added some kind of transportation networks from the bases to mining operations and add gameplay around these, with complete gameplay loops on planets, not just visiting them from time to time to get some materials, drop of some cargo or do the odd mission.

Yeah, but then they saw Horizons preorders and understood no one is that hot after planetary gameplay. Thus the breaks and thankfully more QoL and core updates.

While FD might be passionate about ED, they won't spend money if people won't vote with their wallets. it does create interesting chicken/egg paradox though. But it also underlines hidden elephants in the room - considerable online space sim community online being hostile towards ED during KS, during development and after launch. We got those player numbers up not because everyone hyped ED up, but because everybody and his dog expected we will get eaten by CIG and it is not worth to invest time and money into ED - and we actually flew under radar for those actively trying to work against it.

You would be surprised HOW many people who got ED in first place haven't spent a second to follow up on Horizons gameplay on planets. Some of them are convinced ED failed to do that. They don't know we have SRVs. They don't know we have starports, bases, ice canyons, etc. etc.

Yes, FD dropped ball on communicating some of Horizons stuff, but overall "there's no content, it is shallow game" - which IS just subjective nonesense - have hurt ED considerably, while failures of SC and NMS have turned off people from space sims completely.

It dawned to me why FD have been suddenly so skeptical about everything - because numbers are just not there yet for expanding Horizons and rolling out new expansions. They better refund LTS owners than spend time on game lot of people despise so much they keep talking trash about it. Why they would do that? See Planet Coaster? People LOVE that game. At some point you look all the toxicity, all the battering, all the nonsense, theory crafting and ask....is ED worth the effort?

 

[evanevery]

I've been playing for just a few weeks. Though I know I can always get out of my ship in an SRV, I wouldn't mind being able to walk around in a space station. In fact, I'd love to be able to walk around inside of my ship. What's the point of having a door behind my seat if I can't go back there?

I'm not talking about running around to shoot things. I don't care for FPSs. I'd just like to be able to walk around some stations, interact with some NPCs, etc. I'd like to be able to get out, hop a tram, go talk to the various factions, etc. Maybe have some mysterious guy offer me a legally questionable shipping mission?

Like I said, I'm new. Maybe this is something antithetical to the elite series. Maybe this has been asked a million times. I'm just curious as to whether this is possibly in the future for the game.

We all took a vote...and...unfortunately...NO! YOU won't be able to get out of your ship... {Sound of Duct Tape} Ever... Sorry!

 

[shreddog]

For Space Legs they need to add FPS element for it to be worthwhile for them. Frontier is a business first and foremost, they need sales, and FPS sells if done properly. They need to draw a new crowd, not just the space sim crowd were half of them do not even want space legs(D*** you guys!).

So how bout they make the FPS part both a separate game, and also an addition to E D! (Yes I am a genius) [big grin]
So basically they make the FPS game from scratch(using Cobra). All the art assets are shared between the two projects and the fps "tech" is used to create an E D Space Legs expansion. The separate fps game includes a great campaign(Halo style) built around the lore of Elite, proper server based multiplayer modes, strike missions, etc. (Destiny style).

..

But is it gonna sell [where is it] They would need to do better than Dust 514.

 

[BirdWisdom]

Why not start with a simple space walk as an example in a ghost ship, horror always sells specially with rift [alien]

 

[Stachel]

Also, what's the point in putting all that time into creating avatars, when all they're going to do is just sit in a seat forever.

All that time Frontier put into creating the avatar feature was essential for the standing and walking pilot in the Horizons trailer

 

[Stachel]

You would be surprised HOW many people who got ED in first place haven't spent a second to follow up on Horizons gameplay on planets.

Less than 10% of ED owners bought Horizons, according to the available (albeit approximate) data.

It dawned to me why FD have been suddenly so skeptical about everything - because numbers are just not there yet for expanding Horizons and rolling out new expansions.

Sudden? The slow-down at FD must have started very soon after Horizons launch, when they saw the Sales Curve of Death:

Each further underfunded underwhelming expansion totally failed to turn things around. Horizons is now a liability and Frontier have a very hard choice when it is finished (OK, "finished") on whether to roll it in to the main game. Carry forward embarrassing burdens like PowerPlay, CQC and Engineers, forever making excuses for not fixing them? Or take them out back now, to be shot?

 

[Stachel]

FD (Braben) always stated that FPA/FPS would only make sense if it became useful to the player, if the player has something interesting to do.

Just. Not. True.

Three years ago, Frontier said walking around was on the "current roadmap" (Lifetime Expansion Pass advert in newsletter)

Three months ago David Braben said walking around was current "ongoing work". (Reddit AMA)

No ifs, buts or 'would only make sense if it became useful'.

Walking around isn't easy, but hasn't got harder in the three years since Frontier pitched it to sell LEPs. What has changed in those three years is the money available to fund it (much reduced), the people to whom Frontier are trying to sell ED (not mined-out existing players) and the competition (Star Citizen, doing it far better that Frontier ever could).

Walking around is not going to happen in Elite Dangerous.

If Space legs aren't ever added, think of all the wasted Dev time designing all the ship/station interiors in prep for "Legs"

The ship/station interiors aren't for legs. They are for trailers. Like all of the rest of the non-functional eye-candy in the game.