Will VR Ever Be Added To Odyssey

[Darkfyre99]

My point is not about immersion or usability of the VR handheld controllers. My point is that if you use HOTAS/HOSAS/game controller when flying your ship (in VR), then it's very unreasonable to expect you to be able to switch to the headset's controllers when you get on foot. Not practical. You have your headset covering your eyes, it wouldn't be at all practical to fumble round to try to grab the headset's controllers and start using them.

Really? Because I have no problem grabbing my hand controllers while in VR while playing Elite Dangerous with my headset on, when I want to manipulate non-ED portions of my VR environment. Or my water bottle, for that matter. Or my keyboard and mouse.

I also have no issue finding my chair again, when I get up out of my chair to walk around my cockpit.

It takes minimal effort to set up your real-life environment to play the game in roomScale VR. Do you know what problem can't be overcome, no matter how much preparation you do? On-foot seated VR induced motion sickness. And that is fairly common among VR users, compared to in-cockpit seated VR. Which is why I don't blame Frontier at all for refusing to "simply" enable "head look in VR" for the on-foot portions of Odyssey.

If you think the kerfuffle was bad when Frontier failed to do proper 2D video optimization in Odyssey, imagine when VR users start complaining on how stomach turning and frustrating it is to play on-foot VR. Why on earth would Frontier open up Odyssey to even more bad reviews, especially if it'll require even more work to get, at minimum, to create a usable VR version of the on-foot HUD. It's a huge risk, for very little reward.

 

[BigBANGerZ]

yeah on-foot VR from a seated position is a terrible idea I agree

what I struggle with is:
1. In Microsoft FlightSim I can hit CTRL+TAB (or a bindable hotkey) to switch between VR mode and normal whilst in-game, so in ED:Odyssey why can't that be done to atleast deal with the transition after landing? Not ideal but it helps...
2. ED:Odyssey can already track roomscale movement, heck even in Horizons you can standup IRL and walk around your in game cockpit in full VR, look out the windows and view through the camera mode... this already works. So its not like they are starting from scratch its mostly controller support and interaction being the issue imho.
3. I don't understand the performance issues with the Cobra engine if I'm honest, it feels to me as though Frontier struggles to update and improve it and that in my view is a Frontier problem to solve. If they are having to drop features and support for hardware because of that then I have no answer.

Risk vs. reward yes I can see the commercial challenge that poses there are some ways to offset that imho, you could allow an external mod team to take a look under license look what they did with the UEVR mod, they could add at as an unsupported experimental feature, they could hire the VR dev back to do a cost estimate... there are ways to get it done without exposing Frontier to that commercial risk.

Whether anyone likes it or not, whether anyone agrees with it or not Frontier very clearly stated ED was built from the ground up for VR support, Odyssey is part of ED... yes they can do what they like but trust and reputation are valuable commodities as well hard to gain and easy to lose. What is the cost to their business by not following through by opting for the 'do nothing' that carries material risk too for them.

Lastly if we take a glimpse at what might come down the line... how is base building going to work in VR and is that going to be a good experience? Maybe it won't rely on the on foot gameplay at all I don't know but you can appreciate how it could be a problem.

 

[DjVortex]

yeah on-foot VR from a seated position is a terrible idea I agree

Why? Literally hundreds of games do it quite well.

 

[Darkcyde]

Why? Literally hundreds of games do it quite well.

True. I play Skyrim VR from seated, because I just don't have the space for full room scale VR. I have no problems with it at all, but then I don't suffer from motion sickness, and I know some people can't handle the cognitive dissonance (?) between the motion they see and the body not feeling it.

 

[BigBANGerZ]

Why? Literally hundreds of games do it quite well.

cos its not natural, unless of course you have mobility issues but either way I don't think it matters much because ED can already track room scale so its not really worth arguing about imho

 

[DjVortex]

cos its not natural, unless of course you have mobility issues but either way I don't think it matters much because ED can already track room scale so its not really worth arguing about imho

Most people, especially gamers, can't just stand around for 5 hours on end.

Why exactly would you even want to play standing up? It's not like you can walk around more than just a few meters.

 

[jojon]

...and this is why you have options. :7

 

[Arioch]

I’m glad I can play Skyrim VR (and a whole host of other VR games) standing up for hours on end - usually 2 because that’s how long the Quest 3 battery lasts - even though I only move within a few square meters. Best gaming experiences I’ve had in over 4 decades

 

[Darkfyre99]

Why? Literally hundreds of games do it quite well.

In my experience, I would never describe any of my seated onfoot VR experiences as having been done "quite well," because like most people, my body interprets the visual/inner-ear desync as if I'd been poisoned, and its instinct is to purge my stomach of that poison. That isn't what I'd call fun.

Of course, not everyone gets this form of motion sickness, just as not everyone gets seasick.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsAzSq749Iw&ab_channel=GameThinkingTV

Most people, especially gamers, can't just stand around for 5 hours on end.

I don't need to stand around for 5 hours on end. I'm lucky enough to play this game for five hours a week. But if I was fortunate enough to have that much contiguous time for gaming? I would love to have decent roomscale VR experience in Elite Dangerous, especially if it was combined with the top-notch VR space flight sim that we get today.

I mean... I've already set up my VR space so I can easily get up out of my chair to stretch my legs without needing to remove my headset. It would be nice if I could do more than just pace around my cockpit when I do so.

Why exactly would you even want to play standing up? It's not like you can walk around more than just a few meters.

That's the thing. You don't need more than few square meters for a good RoomScale VR experience. RoomScale VR solves the biggest problem with seated on-foot VR, the whole forced rotation thing, by allowing you to turn your real-life body. And there are a wealth of solutions technological solutions to reduce the effects of linear motion desync... though some of those solutions would be tricky to balance in a multi-player environment.

RoomScale VR games like Fallout 4 VR, Skyrim 4 VR, and Half-Life Alyx are all fantastic experiences, precisely because of RoomScale VR. Seated on-foot VR Games like Subnautica and No Man Sky, while interesting visually, are frustrating to play at best, and vomit inducing at worst, because they're not designed to be played in roomScale VR.

 

[BigBANGerZ]

Most people, especially gamers, can't just stand around for 5 hours on end.

Why exactly would you even want to play standing up? It's not like you can walk around more than just a few meters.

yeah but you still have room scale tracking already in and working, so it doesn't matter i.e. if you want to sit down you can sit down, it works right now

 

[DjVortex]

In my experience, I would never describe any of my seated onfoot VR experiences as having been done "quite well," because like most people, my body interprets the visual/inner-ear desync as if I'd been poisoned, and its instinct is to purge my stomach of that poison. That isn't what I'd call fun.

And this happens because you are sitting down and, somehow magically, it goes away if you are standing up instead? Please explain the logistics behind this because I don't get it. Why on earth would standing up not make you nauseous while sitting down does? Does your brain somehow not get confused by the visual motion if you are standing up, while it does when sitting down? How does that work?

If what you are actually referring to is not your physical stance but the gameplay mechanic of "teleportation" (which I suspect is what you are actually talking about), then how exactly does you sitting down stop the game from supporting that mechanic? Do VR games only support the "teleportation" mechanic when you are standing up, and refuse to offer it to you if they detect that you are sitting down?

This isn't Job Simulator. The on-foot content is not something where you just stand in-game in the same place. This is a first-person shooter. You have to move around, and move a lot, and at quite a pace. You standing up or sitting down doesn't make one iota of a difference. Whatever method of in-game travel you choose, it works equally well regardless of your own physical stance.

 

[Arioch]

And this happens because you are sitting down and, somehow magically, it goes away if you are standing up instead? Please explain the logistics behind this because I don't get it. Why on earth would standing up not make you nauseous while sitting down does? Does your brain somehow not get confused by the visual motion if you are standing up, while it does when sitting down? How does that work?

If what you are actually referring to is not your physical stance but the gameplay mechanic of "teleportation" (which I suspect is what you are actually talking about), then how exactly does you sitting down stop the game from supporting that mechanic? Do VR games only support the "teleportation" mechanic when you are standing up, and refuse to offer it to you if they detect that you are sitting down?

This isn't Job Simulator. The on-foot content is not something where you just stand in-game in the same place. This is a first-person shooter. You have to move around, and move a lot, and at quite a pace. You standing up or sitting down doesn't make one iota of a difference. Whatever method of in-game travel you choose, it works equally well regardless of your own physical stance.

In answer to your first question: yes

Standing up and physically turning around is a one-to-one match between game and reality - so no mismatch, no nausea.

I have no issues with smooth VR locomotion for forwards/backwards movement and never use teleportation, but smooth view rotation on a thumbstick tickles the old vomit valve* When I used to have a wired headset I would use “flick turn” options (VR games generally allow instant turns of various degrees) so I didn’t get tangled up, but since going wireless a few years ago that’s an option I no longer need.

I play many fast paced first person shooters in VR. If you think playing them standing or sitting down doesn’t make one iota of difference - well, if you ever get access to a VR headset, I’d say you should test that assumption at your convenience

*one exception: Cyberpunk 2077 VR mod - I played this completely seated with smooth rotation, but in monoscopic view (still full 6 degree of freedom head tracking, but everything within a metre or two looked noticeably flat) which didn’t trigger nausea. I suppose it’s like a playing with a head tracker and a wrap-around monitor!

 

[DjVortex]

That's why all VR games of this sort offer a stepped camera turn option.

As for moving (forward, backward, sideways), I'd say it's more likely for you to become disoriented and lose your balance when you are standing up than sitting down. (Or, perhaps more accurately, when you are sitting down it doesn't matter much if you become slightly disoriented and lose a bit of your balance because, well, you are sitting down. Not much danger of falling over. Not only are you sitting firmly down, you can constantly feel the chair, which gives you a good grasp of your orientation. Standing up, however, it's much easier to lose your balance if you become disoriented by wild movements in your visuals. The only physical feedback you have is the soles of your feet against the floor, which isn't very helpful if your inner ears are telling you the world is skewed.)

 

[Arioch]

As for moving (forward, backward, sideways), I'd say it's more likely for you to become disoriented and lose your balance when you are standing up than sitting down. (Or, perhaps more accurately, when you are sitting down it doesn't matter much if you become slightly disoriented and lose a bit of your balance because, well, you are sitting down. Not much danger of falling over. Not only are you sitting firmly down, you can constantly feel the chair, which gives you a good grasp of your orientation. Standing up, however, it's much easier to lose your balance if you become disoriented by wild movements in your visuals. The only physical feedback you have is the soles of your feet against the floor, which isn't very helpful if your inner ears are telling you the world is skewed.)

From my experience of thousands of hours spent in first person on-foot games in VR since 2017: you’re wrong

 

[DjVortex]

From my experience of thousands of hours spent in first person on-foot games in VR since 2017: you’re wrong

And from my experience of playing VR, you are wrong. The sitdown experience far, far exceeds the standing up experience. It's more comfortable, much safer, and allows you to play for much longer periods of time. The only VR games I have ever played standing up are those few where sitting down isn't feasible or practical (such as some golf games, as well as some games where you have to crouch to interact with things on the floor.)

 

[Arioch]

The sitdown experience far, far exceeds the standing up experience.

We’ll just have to (really, really) disagree on this one

 

[Dragsham]

I've played elite purely because of VR.
I'd go so far as to say that combat (not fps on foot) gives me an edge when combined with twin sticks.
I've played SC with a tobii 5 eye tracker and l know for a fact I'm a better pilot flying in VR because I can see a whole lot more.
Elite is fundamentally a ship to ship combat game with exploratory, mining, and other aspects all being part of VR genre.
Personally I don't like VR on foot. Because it's hamstrung. You'd stand little chance against a tobii toting pancaker.
Yeah I get it, its the dogs ** for exploration for sure.... I think?
But it just doesn't chime with combat. Rear sights fore sights alignment etc you'd be in a bad place in no time.
I'm glad it's the way it is.
There's far more important parts of elite that need attention 1st

 

[Darkfyre99]

And this happens because you are sitting down and, somehow magically, it goes away if you are standing up instead? Please explain the logistics behind this because I don't get it. Why on earth would standing up not make you nauseous while sitting down does?

Here’s where the magic comes in:

When seated, I have to use a controller to turn my avatar’s body. My eyes say “Hey! We’re turning!” My inner ear replies “Nope! We are perfectly still!” My body asks, “Brain! There’s a sensory mismatch! What do I do with this information?” My brain replies, “We’ve eaten something poisonous. Throw up!”

In proper RoomScale VR, I use my body to turn my avatar’s body. My eyes say “Hey! We’re turning!” My inner ear replies “Yes, we are turning!” My body goes, “Brain, all senses agree, we’re turning. What do I do with this information?” My brain replies, “Nothing! We’re good. Complete the turn.”

I’m thankfully a lot less sensitive to linear acceleration, and over the years VR developers have developed techniques to trick the body to accept incongruent linear acceleration. I find it helps if I walk or run in place, and I find I usually take the first step physically as well. But for many people, it’s teleportation or nothing.

VR ultimately isn’t a visual medium. It’s a full body experience, and VR hack’s the body visually. That’s why so many VR users report feeling “doll-like” or “giant” in our cockpits in Elite Dangerous. Frontier didn’t do most users any favors by putting a headless avatar in the cockpit for us to see. Our eyes say our bodies are in one configuration, while our bodies report that they're in another. The mismatch between visual and kinesthetic inputs causes our brains to come to some strange conclusions that affects how we feel physically.

 

[DjVortex]

When seated, I have to use a controller to turn my avatar’s body. My eyes say “Hey! We’re turning!” My inner ear replies “Nope! We are perfectly still!” My body asks, “Brain! There’s a sensory mismatch! What do I do with this information?” My brain replies, “We’ve eaten something poisonous. Throw up!”

In proper RoomScale VR, I use my body to turn my avatar’s body. My eyes say “Hey! We’re turning!” My inner ear replies “Yes, we are turning!” My body goes, “Brain, all senses agree, we’re turning. What do I do with this information?” My brain replies, “Nothing! We’re good. Complete the turn.”

That's why, as mentioned several times, pretty much all VR games (that support turning the camera with the controller) offer a stepped rotation option (which is invariably enabled by default). And that's exactly what 100% of VR games that use first-person-shooter movement mechanics use.

Leaving turning to your own body physically turning isn't practical because 99.99% of PC VR headsets out there have a cable running from the headset to the PC. Rather obviously you would get entangled in it. (Even the few people who have the cable running to the ceiling instead on the floor would have the problem of the cable eventually having so many twists that it becomes infeasible, or might even break something.)

If you happen to be one of the rare people who have some kind of wireless headsets that connect to the PC wirelessly, and thus allow you completely free movement unrestrained by any cables, then congrats. Most people don't have such a thing. (Also, turning chairs do also exist. Even here they may be the better solution because you don't run the risk of becoming disoriented and going too much to one side and hitting a wall or something. Sure, most headsets will show you a red graphic or something when you are approaching the limits of the play area, but that distracts from the immersion of the game. You gain something, you lose something.)

 

[Arioch]

Leaving turning to your own body physically turning isn't practical because 99.99% of PC VR headsets out there have a cable running from the headset to the PC.

Going by the latest Steam survey, wireless VR headsets (Quest 2, 3, Pro, and Pico) account for roughly 56% of those in use.

Slightly more than the 0.01% you’ve said it to be