Would anyone accept a general leopard?

[Bearcat9948]

not really sure what you mean TBH. A generalised, species-level leopard exists to the same extent as many other species that are in game ATM. To some degree morphological variation correlated with genetic distance in some species. In others, there is more morphological variation with subspecies than between them.

MJ is talking about making an animal model that has different little bits and bobs from each subspecies of leopard and I'm saying that is not an animal that exists in nature, naturally.

It's the exact same reason that I hate the fact the Cape buffalo is called the African buffalo because of how big of a difference there is in the subspecies.

I'll just say I'm not trying to convince anyone who wants what MJ is describing that they are wrong. My opinion is that we should not have a general leopard animal and I don't want one, and I'm trying to explain why that is.

 

[ElectricMonk]

MJ is talking about making an animal model that has different little bits and bobs from each subspecies of leopard and I'm saying that is not an animal that exists in nature, naturally.

It's the exact same reason that I hate the fact the Cape buffalo is called the African buffalo because of how big of a difference there is in the subspecies.

Ok,…. I’m not sure that it is though, my impression was that they’re suggesting a model that sits in the centre of the morphological Ven-diagram. I.e., where there are shared characteristics. For the Amur this might not be possible (since it is more morphologically distinct) but, as far as I can tell, there’s very substantial morphological overlap among the other subspecies. (Edit: though I admittedly haven’t found any good source for this)

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

As a person who does not care and also shares wailord mans opinion that i cannot see the differences between the different leopards or atleast not significant enough that i care, i also dont think a generic leopard would be great.
You would just muddle it to be okay for everyone, while the animal nerds dont like it. If you are okay with a generic leopard then you will props also be okay with headcannoning whatever subspecies to fit your needs, so i really see no reason to not just pick one subspecies and run with it.
I would pick the amur for being not just the most common but also most distinct from the similar looking jaguar but in the end i couldnt care less which one it is or if we even get one

 

[Bearcat9948]

Ok,…. I’m not sure that it is though, my impression was that they’re suggesting a model that sits in the centre of the morphological Ven-diagram. I.e., where there are shared characteristics. For the Amur this might not be possible (since it is more morphologically distinct) but, as far as I can tell, there’s very substantial morphological overlap among the other subspecies.

And that to me is still unacceptable. Just make one or the other. And there are enough differences that it feels wrong to just chalk up different species into coat variations and call it a day

 

[Mjmannella]

As a person who does not care and also shares wailord mans opinion that i cannot see the differences between the different leopards or atleast not significant enough that i care, i also dont think a generic leopard would be great.
You would just muddle it to be okay for everyone, while the animal nerds dont like it. If you are okay with a generic leopard then you will props also be okay with headcannoning whatever subspecies to fit your needs, so i really see no reason to not just pick one subspecies and run with it.
I would pick the amur for being not just the most common but also most distinct from the similar looking jaguar but in the end i couldnt care less which one it is or if we even get one

I do recognize the visual differences, but my thing is that animals are more than how our monkey brains see them in photographs or videos. They're living creatures with their evolutionary backgrounds. To make leopard subspecies (or to make a bigger claim, carnivorans in general) more than what they really are based exclusively on fallible appearences is quite unreflective of how things work.

 

[biggest_dreamer]

I'd be fine with a generic leopard, but it's not my ideal outcome. Ideal would've been Amur leopard in addition to one other subspecies (of which I have little preference), but I think that ship has long sailed considering how deep into the DLC we are without even a single leopard. I certainly wouldn't want two to pop up in the future at this point. Best realistic case in my eyes is also the likeliest one: a simple, clear cut Amur leopard.

Absolute worst case would be a repeat of the "timber" wolf debacle. As in, making a mostly generic leopard, calling it the Amur leopard (or whatever), and giving it a wide continental/biome distribution.

 

[ElectricMonk]

It’s hard to say, but I guess if we got an Amur leopard I could just use it as a stand-in for other subspecies… after all, that’s what almost every AZA zoo does.

i agree, except that I’d choose a different subspecies - the Amur is most distinct from all the others both in terms of morphology and climatic tolerance. The other subspecies have (as far as I can tell) much more overlap with each other in both these respects than any (except maybe north Chinese) does with the Amur subspecies.

 

[SalamAnders]

"It doesn't matter, because I can't tell the differences anyway" seems to be the argument people are going with here.

I have met a lot of people in my life, who can't tell the difference between a jaguar and a leopard, or leopard and a cheetah.

So why don't we just make one spotted cat model to cover them all? Some people can't tell the difference anyway...

Clearly a specific subspecies is important to some people, because they know the differences or at least know some of them.
Or just spent 5 minutes on Google looking up some differences without ignoring the text under the pictures.

If you are okay with a generic leopard, then why does it even matter if we get a specific subspecies? You can still just pretend it is whatever you want it to be, as we have been told to do with a generic leopard.
Facts are just harder to ignore if you already know them.

 

[Aramar]

How about getting a specific leopard in terms of look, name, distribution... but giving it wider tolerance needs? I mean getting the Amur leopard, but allowing a bigger temperature range so that people can pretend it's a tropical one if they want.

 

[NZFanatic]

"It doesn't matter, because I can't tell the differences anyway" seems to be the argument people are going with here.

I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate because I don't think that's a fair statement.

It's more like, "It doesn't matter to me because I can't tell the difference anyway, or because I find the differences negligible," which is actually a completely fair position. I am asking for people's personal opinions here; not necessarily what they think would be the best option (because obviously going subspecific is the best option) but whether they would be willing to compromise just for a leopard in general.

 

[nutrit]

Let’s vote

 

[ElectricMonk]

Clearly a specific subspecies is important to some people, because they know the differences or at least know some of them.

Or just spent 5 minutes on Google looking up some differences without ignoring the text under the pictures.

My point is that, if there’s substantial overlap among subspecies in their morphology then a single model, if it sits in that overlap range, can represent more than one subspecies whilst being entirely accurate. To choose one morphological variable as an example (with entirely made up numbers):

Subspecies A has a body mass of 75-125 kg
Subspecies B has a body mass of 80 - 140 kg
Subspecies C has a body mass of 70 - 100 kg
A model with mass 75-100 kg accurately portrays all three. Substitute any variable you like.

A second point is that many people seem to be implicitly assuming that the variation between subspecies is greater than the variation within subspecies. Whilst this is often the case, it often isn’t. As far as I can tell, leopards (like wolves) are a case where it isn’t.

The photos artwork online that compare subspecies are often of little help in getting a good idea of what the ‘average’ individual looks like because the images have been specifically chosen to exaggerate the differences. More than that, though, they are never a good guide to how morphology varies among individuals or populations within subspecies. Often they’re not even a good representation of how an individual might vary through a year. For example, Amur Leopards or Arctic Wolves are often depicted with their winter coats, since this reinforces the main difference between them and other subspecies.

If you are okay with a generic leopard, then why does it even matter if we get a specific subspecies? You can still just pretend it is whatever you want it to be, as we have been told to do with a generic leopard.

Because it’s very likely that (for example) an Amur leopard won’t have suitability for tropical African plants.

Facts are just harder to ignore if you already know them.

What fact are you talking about that’s been ignored?

 

[SalamAnders]

What fact are you talking about? You’ve not presented anything other than opinion

I meant that if you know no leopard really looks like a generic leopard, then it is hard to pretend it is a specific subspecies

 

[ElectricMonk]

On

I meant that if you know no leopard really looks like a generic leopard, then it is hard to pretend it is a specific subspecies

On what basis do you assert that no leopard looks like a generic (average?) leopard?

 

[NZFanatic]

Let’s vote

On what?

I don't think you quite get what this thread is about. I'm not asking what you think is best, I'm not asking what you prefer, I'm asking whether you'd be willing to accept a compromise. Your favourite leopard subspecies isn't relevant. It's really a yes or no question; if for some reason Frontier couldn't decide on a specific subspecies and decided to just throw in a "Leopard (Panthera pardus)" would you be fine with that at the time or would you be annoyed that they didn't pick whatever leopard you personally wanted.

I'm really asking for three reasons;
1) The African leopard has been discussed ad nauseum and seems to pop up a lot more than any other subspecies;
2) In contrast to the above, the Amur leopard has a very clear lead in the popularity contest.
3) Recently more and more people have been saying, "I don't care what subspecies, I just want a leopard."

The third reason is particularly important, because while the statement implies "I don't care what subspecies, I just want a subspecies," it could also be interpreted as "any leopard is fine", and it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable from a marketing standpoint to just include the "Leopard" as a generic substitute for all subspecies.

As I said in the OP, I have my own preference (Amur) but it's not important.

 

[becks474]

In a perfect world we would get both. An Amur leopard and one warm weather subspecies, potentially the African leopard. And I am still dreaming of a clone pack at the very end of the life time for us hard core fans but perhaps this remains unrealistic.
But I think the Amur leopard with cold weather preference would be better as we only have 3-4 cat species which live in cold weather (Lynx, siberian tiger, snow leopard and Puma) and there are not so much other realistic options. At the moment we have 5-6 species of warm weather cats (lion, jaguar, clouded leopard, cheetah, bengal tiger and also puma) but the realistic further 3 cats we could get (ocelot, carcal and serval) also live in warmer regions.
But I remain at my opinion that it would be better to choose a certain subspecies. Be it Amur or another one. I like them all.

 

[NZFanatic]

But I remain at my opinion that it would be better to choose a certain subspecies. Be it Amur or another one. I like them all.

Again, I'm taking this as a given for all posters - what I'm asking is, if Frontier gave us a generic leopard, would you accept that?

 

[becks474]

Again, I'm taking this as a given for all posters - what I'm asking is, if Frontier gave us a generic leopard, would you accept that?

I would accept that but it is not my personal preference.

 

[ElectricMonk]

But I think the Amur leopard with cold weather preference would be better as we only have 3-4 cat species which live in cold weather (Lynx, siberian tiger, snow leopard and Puma)

Fair, but I’d prefer Persian since 2 of those cold weather species have the same range as the Amur whereas not many cats share the biomes of the Persian and none share the range.

 

[Fabian]

Fair, but I’d prefer Persian since 2 of those cold weather species have the same range as the Amur whereas not many cats share the biomes of the Persian and none share the range.

That's my reasoning too, also because Persian Leopards are fairly common in European zoos at least. I wouldn't mind getting the Amur Leopard, but since many zoos are actively encouraged to replace their African Leopards with Amur Leopards IIRC, I would not be too excited with the prospect of getting African ones to be honest. But that's just personal preference.

To answer the OP question, I can see how a generic leopard species would satisfy a broader group of people, but it wouldn't feel very satisfying to me personally, especially considering that we have two tigers in the game (one from tropical regions + one from colder climates), so seeing how widely distributed leopards are, I think the best solution would be to get two leopard subspecies - which, admittedly, isn't too feasible if we consider the possibly limited amount of future packs. I could live with a generic leopard, but would prefer either the Amur subspecies or the Persian Leopard as my personal favorite.

Then again, Frontier has been wildly inconsistent about this sort of stuff in the past (just look at the wolves). They also marketed the Dhole specifically as a Ussuri Dhole when the SEA pack was released last spring, but ever since it has been called a generic Dhole in the game, possibly to account for the wide distribution of the species across Asia. Maybe they'll end up doing the same with the leopard.