Zapping a human on ground bases to avoid death penalty or murder

Greetings commanders,

after having zapped a human I receive a murder message and penalty. But I see the guy with stars next to his name - which makes me assume that should be a sign for sleeping / unconsiousness.

Is this a simply not fleshed out game mechanic or what is the reason behind that both are treated as murder?
 
There is no sleeping/unconsciousness for NPC's. It's been that way since Odyssey launched. It's as fleshed out as FDev deemed necessary, and that works for most of us ;)
 
Joke's on the PEGI review board...all NPCs are always defenseless, no matter how well armed they are.

Anyway, I do find the assumption of the existence of non-lethal attacks a rather interesting bit of fantasy gamism that has worked it's way into gaming culture. I'd certainly appreciate the existence of less-than-lethal options, but in any vaguely plausible setting they'd be much riskier to employ than the lethal stuff, and would still kill a fair number of people.
 
relax it will be all good soon, i just murdered two settlements with 18 npc's , i am currently wanted and have a penalty on me. i still in there system thou. :). do i look worry about pegi nah
 
Joke's on the PEGI review board...all NPCs are always defenseless, no matter how well armed they are.

Anyway, I do find the assumption of the existence of non-lethal attacks a rather interesting bit of fantasy gamism that has worked it's way into gaming culture. I'd certainly appreciate the existence of less-than-lethal options, but in any vaguely plausible setting they'd be much riskier to employ than the lethal stuff, and would still kill a fair number of people.
I'd like to be able to use non-lethal attacks as well. I figured they couldn't make that work for the same reason there are never more than 4 or 5 player-made bodies at any one time.

I suppose non-lethal would still "kill" all the downed NPC's that disappeared, so it's easier to just call them all kills. System limitations and all that.
 
Given the average age of the playerbase of this game I rather feel a trick has been missed here. Doubt raising the PEGI rating by 2 years would have made much difference to sales, but the empty security cells in settlements (rescue missions maybe were going to be a thing at some point), the bounties for zapping plus no doubt plenty more limitations with NPC behaviour and gameplay mechanics that this has caused makes me think more has been lost than gained by having this being 16+.
 
Given the average age of the playerbase of this game I rather feel a trick has been missed here. Doubt raising the PEGI rating by 2 years would have made much difference to sales, but the empty security cells in settlements (rescue missions maybe were going to be a thing at some point), the bounties for zapping plus no doubt plenty more limitations with NPC behaviour and gameplay mechanics that this has caused makes me think more has been lost than gained by having this being 16+.
Do they have a PEGI rating of 60+ 45+ ?

Edited to allow for the younger commanders.
 
Joke's on the PEGI review board...all NPCs are always defenseless, no matter how well armed they are.

Anyway, I do find the assumption of the existence of non-lethal attacks a rather interesting bit of fantasy gamism that has worked it's way into gaming culture. I'd certainly appreciate the existence of less-than-lethal options, but in any vaguely plausible setting they'd be much riskier to employ than the lethal stuff, and would still kill a fair number of people.
Yeah, getting knocked unconscious is one of those things that's treated as not-a-big-deal in the movies, like you can just punch someone out to get them out of the way for a while and they'll just wake up later and call you a jerk, but..uh.
Yeah.
Getting knocked out is a big deal. There's nothing that can knock you out that doesn't also pose a risk of killing you.
 
There is no sleeping/unconsciousness for NPC's. It's been that way since Odyssey launched. It's as fleshed out as FDev deemed necessary, and that works for most of us ;)
Incidentally, I'm relatively confident (need to try and replicate it) that other NPCs can rouse those who are zapped by the energy link.

So functionally it seems this was probably meant to be non lethal, until they got advice about PEGI ratings when it came to what you could do after the fact.

Because you know someone would bugreport it if they couldn't zap someone and then kill them with a grenade.
 
Getting knocked out is a big deal. There's nothing that can knock you out that doesn't also pose a risk of killing you.
Yeah was a huge bone of contention here for a while with coward punches. A few people got manslaughter rather than murder because they didn't intend to kill them... proven by the punch only rendering them unconscious, and the uncontrolled impact of head on ground killing them which was "totally unintentional". So laws changed.

On topic, FD would be better changing "murder" to "critically injuring"... as that covers concussion and killing.
 
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Yeah, getting knocked unconscious is one of those things that's treated as not-a-big-deal in the movies, like you can just punch someone out to get them out of the way for a while and they'll just wake up later and call you a jerk, but..uh.
Yeah.
Getting knocked out is a big deal. There's nothing that can knock you out that doesn't also pose a risk of killing you.

Unsurprisingly, blunt force trauma to the head, or electrical discharges potent enough to overcome the resistance of thick clothing, have extremely poor therapeutic indices.

When it comes to video games, I blame the introduction of stealth gameplay for the trend. Thief was a great game, but they gave you this magical cosh, that if used from behind an unaware target, always rendered them unconscious, but never killed. The idea was to incentivize use of stealth mechanisms and discourage open combat, as well as to impress upon the player that the Garrett was a thief, not a murderer. In reality or any plausible facsimile thereof, if you cosh fifty people in the back of the head, half of them are going to either fight back or run off screaming, and a fair number that do go down aren't going to get up again. Skewering them with your sword would be quicker, easier, and more reliably silent...but Garrett likes to do things the hard way and is apparently delusional enough that leaving scores of people to die, but with slightly less blood, and scores more severely brain damaged survivors, in pursuit of material wealth was more acceptable to his sensibilities.

The whole less than lethal thing has been a problem for law enforcement and security forces forever. Even when they are given seemingly reliable tools to immobilize there are still fatalities, especially when said tools are used inappropriately by questionably trained morons (not the best example, as everyone survived).

Elite isn't as plausibility focused as it was, but I'd still like to see these less than lethal options...and the gruesome consequences of what happens when they are applied by easily traumatized players who have their CMDRs act even more cavalierly than real police when trying to employ them. Actually, the game kinda already does that...which is how threads like this get started.

Taking the energy tool on overload--that the OP, and quite a few other players, have assumed is non-lethal--as an example, we should look at what this thing must actually be doing to do what it does in game. One run through the suit tutorial will reveal that this device is capable of creating a visibly ionized channel through a meter of near vacuum, delivering enough energy to overwhelm the surge protection on a security door, and force that door open. I mean, holy ****, that isn't a taser, that's a damned AD&D wand of lightning...you know, the thing you use to clear entire 60'x10' corridors of hobgoblins by turning the air to ozone and flash boiling cerebrospinal fluid before the DM says there isn't any treasure to collect unless you want to spend the next five hours chissling melted silver out of the cracks in the floor because all of it failed item saving throws vs. lighting and you idiots should have known better because it's a damned lightning bolt. Or, to put it another way, the $250 linear surge protector this computer is plugged into can absorb the energy equivalent to that of .50 BMG at the muzzle of an M2 Browning before being damaged. If I was trying to protect something that was more valuable than $2k of electronic toys, it would be much more robust. And the game doesn't even downplay the damage...one hit strips shields or kills any unshielded individual. Rockets don't even do that until G4 or G5.

Odyssey players are like...
...then go "I can't believe it's not non-lethal!"

Yeah was a huge bone of contention here for a while with coward punches. A few people got manslaughter rather than murder because they didn't intend to kill them... proven by the punch only rendering them unconscious, and the uncontrolled impact of head on ground killing them which was "totally unintentional". So laws changed.

That's a variant of the eggshell rule. Getting around such inconvenient liabilities is also why things like qualified immunity exist; police can't be expected to put public safety over their own, or to have basic problem solving skills.

This is where Odyssey gets something right. Settlement security doesn't mess around...it's comply or die (or would be if they didn't suck, but that's another matter), even if the non-compliance is on them. They're legally exempt, and they know it.
 
(...) Doubt raising the PEGI rating by 2 years would have made much difference to sales (...)
It's not as simple as slashing 2 years on the playerbase age, sadly. Ratings are more strongly enforced on the 18+ spectrum (more warnings on any material related to the game and stricter rules on advertising to begin with), which can reduce a lot of the marketing push just because of the friction from having a prompt confirming age. Those also change from country to country, with some requiring govt bodies to review the game, any update, and any advertising material.

There is also the point that ratings are enforced mostly by parents, and you can still play a game or watch a movie with your kid who doesn't meet the age rating but you are supervising. An average person will be willing to let their kid on a work that's rated for 16, but not so much if it's 18+ (regardless of what caused the 18+). The hit to the playerbase is a bit more than just the 2 years, and there is also the hit on marketing costs and reach.

Still wish we had non-lethal options. Could enable rescue/kidnapping missions, wouldn't change the bounty balance (just make it so knocking out someone is assault, with the same bounty as killing, or double the bounty for killing and leave the assault as the current value).
 


Still wish we had non-lethal options. Could enable rescue/kidnapping missions, wouldn't change the bounty balance (just make it so knocking out someone is assault, with the same bounty as killing, or double the bounty for killing and leave the assault as the current value).
The issue is coming up with something that will work on someone outside in a fully sealed and armoured spacesuit that won’t mangle and kill someone inside who is wearing no armour at all. Without having multiple reduced lethality weapons or a trigger like a seismic charge launcher and feeling indistinguishable from magic.
 
The issue is coming up with something that will work on someone outside in a fully sealed and armoured spacesuit that won’t mangle and kill someone inside who is wearing no armour at all. Without having multiple reduced lethality weapons or a trigger like a seismic charge launcher and feeling indistinguishable from magic.

I still think overriding the suit's environmental controls would be about the only reliable way to stealthy, reliably, incapacitate someone without massive overkill or immediately delivering injuries inconsistent with life. Spoof the readouts/alarms, change the suit breathing mixture to pure nitrogen until they lose consciousness, then increase O2 to the level where they stay out but don't run serious risk of permanent brain injury. If it's a combat suit with integrated pharmaceutical dispensers, or a survival suit with a built in stasis system, all the better.

Of course, this kind of automated suit hack would still be pretty far fetched (it would work once or twice, then people would get the idea to turn off the wifi or buy Remlok instead of Kia), but it would be less ridiculous than trying to zap, dart, or cosh someone through an armored pressure suit.
 
I seem to remember some documentary on something to do with passenger aeroplanes and what happens when oxygen levels drop in the cabin. Turns out decision making goes straight out of the window and you can even tell people to put on an oxygen mask and they'll potentially just sit there giggling at you.

So this would carry over well to why you die instantly when O2 runs out in game. You wouldn't, but you're so ineffective at doing something about it without an immediate source the results will end up being the same. So something messing with a suit life support would work. How oxygen then gets turned back on so the NPC wouldn't die and in a way that doesn't return some level of combat effectiveness at least to being able to raise an alarm is another story.

Kind of getting convoluted though for a game where first aid instantly closes near lethal injuries and does so without scarring or any further complications.
 
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