Those two are worldwide common in petting zoos while those two lets say not so much, so id still wouldnt see them as contenders
Map of the entire roster by (approximate) animal distribution
- Thread starter yoav_r
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Honestly, I'd hope for a generic domestic sheep/horse/cow, etc., and make them have different patterns and stuff, similar to how the red foxes and llamas are. That way, they can kinda sorta represent different breeds in the game. Does that make sense?
Yes and? We are talking about a game where you can add proboscis monkeys and pangolin to the zoo as if they are casual zoo animals.
Still we are comparing the literally most common domestic equid in zoos around the entire world vs 2 very niche sheeps, one of them looking like a kamerun sheep which is way more common. Like 614 holdings in the EAZA alone make the shetland pony roughly 307 times more common then the two sheeps are combinded in the EAZA alone.
Cause there are exactly 2 zoos holding the barbados black belly and zeroStaint Croix Sheep.
Im sure atleast the barbados has a few more in america, but still.
First one are the barbados, second cameroon sheep, which has 367 EAZA holdings, quite widespread in zoos as you see.
Of course frontier could take the barbados or st croix sheep, but my question would be why?
Why would they?
If you want islands domestics, nothing can trump the shetland pony and if you would want a second and annoy some people the kuneku pig would be a good pig option for domestics.
If you want a sheep, the cameroon sheep literally is the blackbelly but common and the ouessant sheep is pretty much the sheepiest sheep that ever sheeped if its about the most generic looking sheep.
They both are in any way shape and form severly outclassed by other animals and dont even have uniqueness as their saving grace as the pangolin or the proboscis monkey have. Theyd simply be inferior options.
The implication of an islands pack is highlighting animals iconic to islands. Nobody thinks of an ocelot or an armadillo as "island animals".
I mean, yeah, but with that logic, I wouldn't have chosen penguins for Africa or dholes for southeast Asia, so it doesn't really matter anyways
I think that for an islands pack, it actually is important that people don't immediately go "why is this in an islands pack?" I don't think it's reasonable to include a species such as the ocelot that has a vast mainland presence just because a fraction of their overall population also exists on an island. Really, if you're willing to be that permissive, you could make an argument for all sorts of predominantly mainland species such as white-taile deer, wild boar, mountain hare, stoat, or even our previously attained raccoon and red fox. While I personally wouldn't mind seeing perhaps a single exception in the vein of the American flamingo, rockhopper penguin, or walrus (species that actually do have a substantial island presence in addition to or in excess of their mainland presence), I think that the majority of the pack really does need to be explicitly island species in order for the concept to even land.
Tasmanian devil, North Island brown kiwi, Matschie's tree kangaroo, fossa, tanuki, Prevost's squirrel, Visayan warty pig. That's my preferred true island lineup, at least.
Tasmanian devil, North Island brown kiwi, Matschie's tree kangaroo, fossa, tanuki, Prevost's squirrel, Visayan warty pig. That's my preferred true island lineup, at least.
African penguins are endemic to Africa though, hence the name. I agree on the dhole but you know how Frontier is with their canines.
That was my point with Scimatar oryx but nobody understood me then. Species extinct in the wild should not have a map in zoopedia or the map should only show reintroduction points to highlight what extinct in the wild means.East Asia (more specifically, East China), just like the British Isles, look so empty because they have experienced intense human activity and specially industrialization for centuries, there aren't many true natural areas left, and less well preserved complete ecosystems. The deer won't solve that emptiness because is an extinct in the wild species, discovered to science when already on captivity. I think it even shouldn't have a distribution map in Zoopedia, and I don't know how much do we know about its historical range, but I suspect they had been struggling in the wild for long time before its extinction. And then the takin shares habitat with both pandas and some other animals already in PZ, probably it would only increase the intense colour spot in the NE Himalayas and SW China.
(Anyway I would like both species in game)
Similar things (dense population, severe deforestation) happen with Central Madagascar or Southern Nigeria (e.g.), they are notoriously empty surrounded by dark colour areas... But it would be difficult to find species that solve it.
But then the map clearly shows other areas with remarkable biodiversity but lacking representation in the game or IRL zoos, such as the Caribbean, Java or New Zealand. A wonderful work @call me Omi !!
I don’t agree with the deer case for China though. Père David’s deer is extremely important for China, Chinese culture, heritage and conservation history. It would definitely enhance the region since the reintroductions are happening right there at it’s former range.
Please see the map of it’s former range:
No, I know that. I was referring to how it was mentioned that an Islands pack needs animals iconic to the islands. Almost nobody would think of the penguin from Africa.
But it doesn't matter, we shouldn't be discussing it because it's not that relevant to the thread
While making a Dedicated Caribbean Islands Pack would be difficult, featuring Caribbean Animals in a Worldwide Islands Pack shouldn't be a fuss. I suggested using a Caribbean Theme because it is Marketable and Relatable by many. In the case of an Animal Pack, we don't even have to consider a Theme, other than Trailer Music and Setting.
Here are some Caribbean Animals with Representation in European Zoos that can be used in an Islands Pack.
- Cuban Crocodile (37 Current Holdings). More Holdings than Salties, beaten only by the Nile Crocodile. Endemic.
- American Flamingo (114 Current Holdings). Also common in American Zoos. Despite the Representation, I think would make a better Anniversary Gift. Technically not entirely Endemic, but all of its Range is around the Caribbean Basin, including South Florida.
- Brown Pelican (6 Current Holdings). Not the most common Pelican in European Zoos, but I believe they are more common in America. Over the years I have seen these a lot in Marketing and Advertisement for Tourism and Products from the Caribbean, even Rum. Could easily feature as a Headliner. Not Endemic, but most of its Range is around the Caribbean Basin and is associated with this Region more than anywhere else.
- Hispaniolan Solenodon (6 Former Holdings). Currently not kept in European Zoos, but I still think this could be an interesting addition, as a Venomous Small Exhibit Mammal. I'm not sure if there are any Hispaniolan or Cuban Solenodons in North American Zoos these days. Both Species are Endemic.
- Rhinoceros Iguana (79 Current Holdings). I would add this Species as a Habitat Animal, as they are more Space Demanding than other Iguanas, since Adults are largely Terrestrial. Endemic.
- Cuban Iguana (26 Current Holdings). Fills the same Niche as the Hispaniolan Rhinoceros Iguana, but mentioned because of relatively decent Holdings. Endemic.
- American Crocodile (4 Current Holdings). Not common in European Zoos, but I believe is more widespread in America. Honestly the Caribbean Endemic Cuban Crocodile is more fitting anyway. Either way, similar to the Brown Pelican, majority of its Range is around the Caribbean Basin.
- Cuban Hutia (21 Current Holdings). Decent Holdings and Endemic.
I'm pretty sure everybody thinks the African Penguin specifically is from africa.
Someone can correct me, but isnt in game dhole a subspecies: Cuon alpinus alpinus?
Yep, it is the Ussuri dhole... This subspecies is found in the northwest of Southeast Asia but also in China and India.
Actually its not. Wikipedia page is probably wrong about this subspecies.
Local dhole lover got me interested to read something about it. So I started with subspecies of in game dhole. I saw something suspicious. How our subspecies can have such big range, when subsepecies known as burmese & chinese & tien shan exist? I tried to found some maps regarding dhole distribution and found this.
This subspecies isnt even found in southeast asia lol.
As name suggest it is found in russian far east, near ussuri river. Its part of northern dhole group together with: hesperius, fumosus, laniger and primaeveus.
Whats worse apparently this subspecies might be extinct and at this point exist only on russian papers. Last time dholes were seen around 30 years ago in russia and mongolia. Apparently this is how it used to look like. No actuall images about this subspecies.
Again, you're missing the point. Would you think of an African penguin when making an African DLC? No, you would not. Most would've chosen a monkey or an antelope, but not a penguin, yet it was added anyways.
But fine, another example: Arctic fox. Personally, I don't think of an Arctic fox to represent North America, I would've chosen the red fox by a long shot, but the Arctic fox was picked instead.
My point for the islands discussion is that we don't need every single choice to be an animal endemic to only islands
It's not clear. The scientific name on the zoopedia page says "cuon alpinus alpinus", but then the animal is listed as just "dhole" and the education board says only "cuon alpinus." The list of countries mentioned on the zoopedia doesn't match the map shown on the zoopedia either.
Personally, I like to think it's the general dhole in its summer variant.
I'm interested, where did that range map came from?
On the contrary, I don't fully agree with the oryx case because we know very well its historical distribution, habitat and migrations. Also, only about 25 years went from its extinction in the wild until the first true reintroductions, and there were already some early projects (fenced management in natural habitat) in the 1980s. But if I'm correct, the deer is still in that reintroduction stage, with no free ranging herds, and has been extinct in the wild for about 2 centuries at least. The oryx range is well defined (PZ and the IUCN can paint it in a map), but with the deer it can only be estimated.
Either way, what I would prefer for distribution maps, which would solve both this problem with extinct in the wild and the one with subspecies treatment in PZ (see the Ussuri dhole mentioned in this thread which falls in both) is using a 3 colour scheme: 1 for the selected subspecies in its current range, 1 for the rest of the species, and 1 for historical range where it became extinct (for the last couple of centuries, no need to paint lions in Greece like Wikipedia)
Hi @Veah. Please see this article in Royal Society Publishing:
Imperial trophy or island relict? A new extinction paradigm for Père David's deer: a Chinese conservation icon | Royal Society Open Science
Determining the ‘dynamic biogeography’ of range collapse in threatened species is essential for effective conservation, but reconstruction of spatio-temporal patterns of population vulnerability and resilience can require use of non-standard ecological ...
royalsocietypublishing.org
Also there are many free range herds of Pere David’s deer in China now, please take a closer look at this:
Genetic Differentiation of Reintroduced Père David’s Deer (Elaphurus davidianus) Based on Population Genomics Analysis - PMC
The reintroduction is an important conservation tool to restore a species in its historically distribution area, but the rate of reintroduction success varies across species or regions due to different reasons. Genetic evaluation is important to the ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Thanks for the articles, they were really interesting, specially the source of that one with the Holocene range map of the milu, it included maps from every Chinese deer species. But I think the expression "free-ranging" is being used very differently than the IUCN, as one of the papers is a 1997-1998 study from the "free-ranging" herd in Milu Yuan, a city park in Beijing.Hi @Veah. Please see this article in Royal Society Publishing:
Imperial trophy or island relict? A new extinction paradigm for Père David's deer: a Chinese conservation icon | Royal Society Open Science
Determining the ‘dynamic biogeography’ of range collapse in threatened species is essential for effective conservation, but reconstruction of spatio-temporal patterns of population vulnerability and resilience can require use of non-standard ecological ...royalsocietypublishing.org
Also there are many free range herds of Pere David’s deer in China now, please take a closer look at this:
Genetic Differentiation of Reintroduced Père David’s Deer (Elaphurus davidianus) Based on Population Genomics Analysis - PMC
The reintroduction is an important conservation tool to restore a species in its historically distribution area, but the rate of reintroduction success varies across species or regions due to different reasons. Genetic evaluation is important to the ...
Coming back a little more on topic, I made this quick edit of a Siberian tiger range map (from Wikipedia) as an example of the 3 colour scheme I was talking in my precious post. If I had the skills and enough time, I would love to make something like this for every animal in the game and use it on education boards.