No Single Player offline Mode then?

[Stormprooter]

I still can't believe people think they can simulate the galaxy, along with its complex economy and events, on their own computer at home and play on it at the same time. I think the galaxy has gone mad!

It is very possible to do this, but the architecture of the software and systems would need to be very different from the online setup for it all to work on a client machine.
FD have already said it can be done with current systems, but it would mean a very severe set of limitations in the online version to ensure the game client is compatible with both offline and online modes - the only other option is create a brand new and completely separate offline game client/local server, which they have said they have no plans to do.
I hope they change their minds on that, and perhaps decide it can be done later on down the line after release - but it means taking away resources from the main game and expansions development......
Perhaps we shall get some kind of official response to the feeling of dissapointment (and in some cases anger) today - we'll see.

 

[CmdrPSB]

I've played a heck of lot of games in my time and they've all been solo offline games. I've never played an MMO. However this is the FIRST online-only game that has caught my eye. Frontier have 110% of my support and I sincerely thank them for making this great game.

I think part of the problem is that people think that Kickstarter = The Game the Way I Want It. The reality is that you are simply backing developers to make the game they want to make. Yes, the developers can listen to their paying audience and make changes but it's still their game. If they want to change things then that's the risk you took backing them. Kickstarter is not about buying games, it's about risk.

I still can't believe people think they can simulate the galaxy, along with its complex economy and events, on their own computer at home and play on it at the same time. I think the galaxy has gone mad!

It's a testament to the trickery that Elite and its followups used that people think it's so simple and easy. They're not comparing like for like. For all the size and variety of the galaxies in those games, they were static based on what the PG said at the time. This time that PG galaxy is just the start state, and then it's a live simulation with a huge number of inputs and outputs based on player actions, NPC actions, and is set up to essentially run itself with minimal interference from the devs unless they want to kick off special events or throw in secrets.

 

[Ydiss]

problem is, that's not only a kickstarter problem, they sold the game on their store too

I said in the post you quoted they have been directed to the refund page.

Everything else has been discussed. It's not going to change. Now it's just an argument on definitions.

 

[Cathy]

Technical n00b questions:

1) If there's no offline-only galaxy content because the online multiplayer galaxy is needed to create it, does that mean that players are making the data to create the dynamic (generating missions, market, etc)?

2) If so, does that mean fewer players = slower/reduced dynamic content, which could result in players leaving, which would result in slower/reduced dynamic content, which would result in players leaving... etc.?

(I am not clear on how this works)

 

[Quietman]

I still can't believe people think they can simulate the galaxy, along with it's complex economy and events, on their own computer at home and play on it at the same time. I think the galaxy has gone mad!

If you have technical expertise in this area then you should probably think about a different career.

1: They are not simulating an entire galaxy, they are generating and simulating tiny, (and when I say tiny I mean almost infinitesimal), portions of the galaxy on demand using temporal/spatial locality and procedural generation based on players/islands locations.

2: This is 100% doable on your home computer, (technically), as a separate client side server, especially once you remove the database requirements for hundreds of thousands of players, (you would make it single player only or maybe allow for a small finite number of local LAN connections, e.g. 64).

3: How difficult it is to do, depends on how much work has already been done, what tradeoffs you are willing to accept in cutting down the real server infrastructure and how much time/resources you're willing to throw at it.

 

[Stormprooter]

326 pages?I've missed quite the crapstorm.My solidarity to those who bought the game and wanted to play offline.

I only caught up yesterday evening, because I spent most of the weekend 'offline'!

 

[Vandaahl]

320 pages in a couple of days. Internet show the claws because the game will be only on the net. Weird.

Lol, yeah. I think its a paid crowed doing this. The newletter is only spread true the internet. How would people be able to read it when they don't have any internet...?

[looks for the door]

 

[the darkwalker]

Had it occurred to you that the reason it had not been announced until now was that they where still desperately attempting to find a way to get it to work, surely you can't imagine Frontier WANTED to drop a bombshell like this in the weeks leading up to launch and risk a PR nightmare.
I would bet that the lack of ships and features is in part down to the amount of development time being spent to find a solution which would allow offline or semi offline gameplay

well who did it then? my sister?
an ofcourse, the lack of everything else is caused by the offline feature that they did not develop...guys try to think of what you write these arguments have been beaten to death already

 

[Iede]

I've played a heck of lot of games in my time and they've all been solo offline games. I've never played an MMO. However this is the FIRST online-only game that has caught my eye. Frontier have 110% of my support and I sincerely thank them for making this great game.

I think part of the problem is that people think that Kickstarter = The Game the Way I Want It. The reality is that you are simply backing developers to make the game they want to make. Yes, the developers can listen to their paying audience and make changes but it's still their game. If they want to change things then that's the risk you took backing them. Kickstarter is not about buying games, it's about risk.

I still can't believe people think they can simulate the galaxy, along with its complex economy and events, on their own computer at home and play on it at the same time. I think the galaxy has gone mad!

You'd be surprised how this aforementioned simulation can be done with simple scripts here and there. Did you ever play, say, GTA series? They simulate the road traffic and all the people wandering around the street completely on your PC, and they did it more than 10 years ago. What 'living galaxy' FD is talking about? We'll see it in a month, and I doubt there will be noticeable difference between them and, say, Free lancer game. Or there will be difference in favor of the said game, because it had believable living galaxy with npcs doing their jobs and routine, with generated missions and it even had a scripted story line for those who want that. All without any cloud technology and constant server linkup, all on your PC. It's not that hard to simulate a galaxy if the simulation is on the very general level. Prices, local wars, mission generation, it can be done on the very PC you game on, and it was done before.
I'm waiting the release to see all this glorious 'living galaxy' they told us about to see, will it have any real difference from 10 years old games or not. And it better be. Because if it will be dull and repetitive, it will be not us who start 'whining' about it

 

[the darkwalker]

I said in the post you quoted they have been directed to the refund page.

Everything else has been discussed. It's not going to change. Now it's just an argument on definitions.

yeah and guess what...still no refunds

 

[Erna Jedermann]

It is very possible to do this, but the architecture of the software and systems would need to be very different from the online setup for it all to work on a client machine.
FD have already said it can be done with current systems, but it would mean a very severe set of limitations in the online version to ensure the game client is compatible with both offline and online modes - the only other option is create a brand new and completely separate offline game client/local server, which they have said they have no plans to do.
I hope they change their minds on that, and perhaps decide it can be done later on down the line after release - but it means taking away resources from the main game and expansions development......
Perhaps we shall get some kind of official response to the feeling of dissapointment (and in some cases anger) today - we'll see.

I think that they need US for the living Galaxy to play allways online ....We will create the Backgrounssimulation:
- Players Kill Fractionships in System...System change or stays in Fraction ..same with Kill Important NPC.
- All Marketdata ...depends How much/What/prices sells/Buyings
- NPC Pirates in system..as more they get killed so Safer the System
- Explorationdata...who was the first explorer in ROSS 123456789
- Often used Trading Routes ... increase the NPC Pirates ... Player can decrease if they attack them.
and so on...

 

[Frank]

I really don't get the anger here, I understand the disappointment, but not the fury, the malicious comments and the threats.

What is the difference between bitter disappointment and anger? I'm angry at myself that I didn't see this coming. I guess hindsight is 20/20.

I never understood the point of the online solo mode. If you want to play solo you just play offline. If you want to play alone but in the ever-changing universe sculpted by players' actions then you play in a group mode with a group of one. Of course the answer's obvious now.

I'm sure they did work on the offline mode to keep the promise they made during the Kickstarter, but while they concentrated on the online version it was put on the backburner on a very very low heat. It appears as if this decision had been taken at a very early stage.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

If you have technical expertise in this area then you should probably think about a different career.

1: They are not simulating an entire galaxy, they are generating and simulating tiny, (and when I say tiny I mean almost infinitesimal), portions of the galaxy on demand using temporal/spatial locality and procedural generation based on players/islands locations.

2: This is 100% doable on your home computer, (technically), as a separate client side server, especially once you remove the database requirements for hundreds of thousands of players, (you would make it single player only or maybe allow for a small finite number of local LAN connections, e.g. 64).

3: How difficult it is to do, depends on how much work has already been done, what tradeoffs you are willing to accept in cutting down the real server infrastructure and how much time/resources you're willing to throw at it.

If I had to guess, his career involves fries. As for simulating an SP version, you'd use minimal abstraction for the system the ship is in and the neighbouring systems, then greater abstraction working outwards, by say 7-8 hops you'd be more or less entirely simulating using fudge numbers of various flavours, which is computationally minimal. Sorta like a moving spotlight beam with the player ship in the middle. The only thing that needs to be created and kept static is the galaxy map, with a database of celestial bodies and relevant lookups for station/type and various NPC's and whatnot.

Honestly, I've seen more complex problems. What I'm suggesting here is well within the scope of a computer from the P2-P3 era, let alone a Core i5 which is what most gamers run these days. Most of the power these days is still spent on graphical fidelity and "cool things" such as physics and the like, AI and everything else is a loooong way behind. So, eh, I just don't see it personally, I don't see why it's so important to force everyone to be "online" for what might be for people like myself - a singleplayer experience. I steadfastly refused to buy Diablo 3 on PC for that *exact* reason.

 

[ecgallagher]

But they did it quite successfully with the first 3 games. Offline players aren't asking for the same galaxy as the online one. It's been stated by those that want offline that a closed, static galaxy, different from the one online will be perfectly acceptable.

This would mean two separate games. Two lines of code to support. Two games to support. At least this is what I believe M. Brooks posted earlier in this thread.
Sounds like they originally thought they would be able to somehow use the online galaxy which has now become unfeasible. ( again info based on M. Brooks posts)

So maybe they should release online and then try to get a small team to work on a completely separate offline version. But it seems like it might take a while. Would you be willing to wait? 6 months? 1 year?

Just a thought.

 

[jamotide]

The core fundamentals of the topic were resolved about 250 pages back. Now it's just this. Arguing subjective definitions to validate anger value.

It's the same game. I get it, a few won't be able to play it now, but that would be like saying a change in minimum specs was promising one game and delivering an entirely different one.

The kick starter t&cs clearly cover this. For everyone else, there's the refund process.

If all has been resolved why do you still say that only everyone else can use the refund process? KS TS clearly say, that if the pledge rewards aren't delivered, the creator is legally bound to refund. And they arent delivering DRM free editions, are they?
And before someone claims that always online is no DRM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Always-on_DRM

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I'm glad we agree on the nature of GG.


That to me is absolutely despicable and disgusting behavior, and exactly like the GG .

Its a 2 way street imo. Maybe to you (and to me FWIW) loss of offline mode is a minor loss, but imagine if they were in a scenario where they paid a lot of money (its all relative 5K to 1 person may be something it may be nothing, were as £100 to another person may actually be a lot more) and their whole reason for buying was offline.

sure, maybe they got to have a dabble when they had access to internet now and then, but it is very feasible that the only way some will be able to play properly will be offline and the ONLY reason they kicked in your £100+ was due to offline.

So they find out not only is the game potentially now unplayable for you but when they go online they read a load of "I'm alright Jack screw you" posts, and combine that with their own disappointment, and worry of wasted money (after reading a lot of people saying FD should NOT offer FULL refunds).

I totally sympathise with why some people are gutted, and imo it isn't for you or I to belittle someone's disappointment with "1st world problems" type posts (I am not accusing you personally of that).

 

[Hermit]

Would you be willing to wait? 6 months? 1 year?

Yep, and so would others if it was promised that it would happen (with set dates). The reason why I, personally, want an offline version is to ensure the longevity of the game (and to also play it when I'm not connected to the internet )

 

[Iede]

Technical n00b questions:

1) If there's no offline-only galaxy content because the online multiplayer galaxy is needed to create it, does that mean that players are making the data to create the dynamic (generating missions, market, etc)?

2) If so, does that mean fewer players = slower/reduced dynamic content, which could result in players leaving, which would result in slower/reduced dynamic content, which would result in players leaving... etc.?

(I am not clear on how this works)

Well, we do not know for sure, and can only guess using logic. We know that the galaxy will have something like 400 billion star systems, and a player can technically be in any of them. So, if you and me are few thousands light years from each other, what impact my actions in my system can possible do to you in yours? And if you just bought the whole market in your system, how it should affect the prices for me? It's just logic. If we are talking about economy simulation, it just cannot be galaxy-wide. Not with 400 billion star systems. Otherwise it won't be believable in any extent. The same goes for other types of player-player and player-npc interactions. Galaxy is just too big for be filled with players. We can play the game for years and never meet just because I took one direction to fulfill my exploring needs, and you took another one.
Right now I cannot see how the players can affect each other if they are not in some local cluster of star systems.

 

[Voivod]

yeah and guess what...still no refunds

You expected a refund on Sunday?
Really?

Also pretty sure there's going to be quite a queue for the refunds.

 

[the darkwalker]

You expected a refund on Sunday?
Really?

Also pretty sure there's going to be quite a queue for the refunds.

i don't want a refund i'm waiting for them to wake up
edit: maybe i need to be more clear since my previous posts are already 4 page behind
i want to wait (i'll have to moreso, eu laws are clear) at least release day, both to see what they manage to do and how this situation will be handled
by "still no refunds" i meant that their policy is still "open a ticket and we'll see" and that is just not sufficient for the hell of the mess we are here now