Thargoid invasion - Next target systems?

[Aleks Zuno]

Week 28, 8th June 3309​

Report
Thirty-two Alerts repelled at Arietis Sectors JM-W d1-57, JR-V b2-2 and AQ-P b5-3, HIPs 11134, 2422, 20527, 21317, 117177 and 20491, Pegasi Sector QE-N a8-3, Muncheim, Col 285 Sectors UD-G b12-5, RS-H b11-3, TS-Z b14-3, TS-Z b14-5, TS-Z b14-1, FU-H b10-0 and CA-E b13-1, Cephei Sector DQ-Y b2, Awara, 63 Eridani, HR 1812, Orong, Baudani, Benanekpeno, Pathamon, Paeni, Senocidi, Bormuninus, Ngolite, Nu Guang, 48 Tauri.
Four Invasions defended at Wolf 121, HIPs 26688 and 21474, Asletae.
Fifty-three Control evictions at Hyades Sectors GW-M b7-5, NH-M b7-3 and NM-M b7-1, Cephei Sectors AV-Y b2, CQ-Y b5 and EB-X b1-1, Col 285 Sectors OS-T d3-76, GQ-O c6-29, DA-E b13-1, UC-B b14-3, WN-Z b14-6, TH-B b14-0, MR-M c7-23, TH-B b14-2, OB-D b13-6, OB-D b13-0, NR-B b14-0, OB-D b13-1, NR-B b14-1, CF-Q c5-3, CF-Q c5-5, GV-P c5-12, HF-G b11-4, HP-H b10-3, IK-H b10-0, JG-O c6-16, JG-O c6-3, KA-G b11-1, MQ-F b11-1, NQ-F b11-0, OC-V d2-69, SM-C b13-4, UH-C b13-3, RM-B b14-7, SH-B b14-5, TH-B b14-1, TH-B b14-7 and KA-G b11-4, Lyncis Sectors VU-P b5-5 and TZ-P b5-4, HIPs 28183, 29217, 16798, 18271, 21354, 25679 and 28913, Lubal, Trianguli Sector FL-Y b3, Paitra, Wogaiawong, Ikpen, Bumbo.
In addition to the defended Invasions, six recaptured systems starting Recovery are Lubal, Paitra, Wogaiawong, Ikpen, HIP 25679, Bumbo.

Targets updated at 06:50 15th June 3309
HIP 30158 Control 24% *25.2% — Hadad 21 Ly
29 e Orionis Control 22% — Taranis 22 Ly
HIP 20056 Control 16% — Indra 24 Ly
HIP 37520 Control 12% — Cocijo 30 Ly
HIP 20616 Control 8% *8.2% — Indra 22 Ly
HIP 19781 Control 4% *4.3% — Indra 26 Ly
Chibis Control 4% — Cocijo 25 Ly
HIP 21261 Control 2% *3.6% — Indra 20 Ly
HIP 20741 Control 2% *3.2% — Indra 24 Ly
Hyades Sector YZ-O b6-0 Control 2% — Taranis 30 Ly, empty
HIP 8525 Control 2% — Oya 18 Ly
Wanmi Control 2% — Raijin 26 Ly
Col 285 Sector CF-Q c5-17 Alert 2% — Thor 46 Ly, empty
Col 285 Sector DA-E b13-3 Control 2% — Cocijo 30 Ly, empty

Week 27, 1st June 3309​

Report
Twenty-two Alerts repelled at Poqomathi, Cephei Sector CQ-Y b3, HIPs 10616, 20019, 20492, 26926 and 21991, Arietis Sector ZU-P b5-0, Col 285 Sectors AF-P c6-16 and BA-P c6-8, Luggerates, Aowicha, Juipedun, Holvandalla, Cao Tzu, Pegasi Sectors WK-L a9-3, BQ-Y d101 and FW-W d1-104, Isla, Fotlandjera, Hyades Sector AV-O b6-5, Laumas.
Six Invasions defended at Ge, HIPs 23716, 26274 and 20850, Koko Oh, Kuruma.
Forty-one Control evictions at Col 285 Sectors JA-G b11-3, LL-E b12-1, NG-E b12-3, HL-O c6-19, SI-T d3-89, HF-G b11-5, NG-E b12-4, FI-G b12-2, QR-C b13-3, JG-O c6-13, LL-E b12-0, RM-B b14-1, GV-P c5-13, SX-Z b14-1, JG-O c6-14, OC-L c8-11, YY-X b15-3, RN-T d3-79, PR-B b14-3, RN-T d3-80, KW-M c7-24, OR-B b14-8, XN-Z b14-0, OR-B b14-6, OR-B b14-0, OR-B b14-1, WD-Y b15-7 and OR-B b14-7, HIPs 22031, 32860, 32718, 3006 and 4041, Hyades Sector MM-M b7-1, Almar, Cephei Sectors ZE-A c8 and DQ-Y b6, Lyncis Sector IC-V c2-7, Trianguli Sectors GG-Y c18 and JR-W b1-0, Ceti Sector DB-X b1-3.
In addition to the defended Invasions, two recaptured systems starting Recovery are Almar, Trianguli Sector GG-Y c18.

 

[Starsong]

A thought on sampling - whilst Scout samples give the same progress as Interceptor samples, can you harvest them as quickly? My personal tests give a 50% ish success rate on Cyclops sampling, but only about 20% on Scouts.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

A thought on sampling - whilst Scout samples give the same progress as Interceptor samples, can you harvest them as quickly? My personal tests give a 50% ish success rate on Cyclops sampling, but only about 20% on Scouts.

It is a very old bug, which @Jmanis has been following very closely since it started and has some war-specific discussion here; in short, different Commanders get different success rates. There are some interesting trajectory observations regarding success versus failure based on how the target is moving when the limpet finishes its task, but on average over a full hold of limpets, the single factor which affects success rate the most is which Commander is involved.

The insidious part is the later addition of the "Research limpet failed" message, combined with the way that the success rate is relatively consistent for each Commander, suggesting together that some random element is actually intended. This is a false impression though, which one can infer from the cancelled research-related Community Goals, and which one can discover by speaking with other Commanders. I had never used a single Research limpet prior to this, and therefore had no idea at all that the imperfect return was a bug, but it is a bug and it should be a guaranteed success.

As it happens, I get around 80% with a Cyclops and around 95% with Scouts, which gives suitably quick harvests indeed. I know a Commander who gets almost nothing from Scouts while in a Wing, around 25% while solo and around 50% by using only a few limpets at once and targeting the sample cargo as it returns. My Orthrus rate is 5% from 60 limpets total, but there are Commanders who have made more attempts than that and received nothing yet.

 

[CMDR-AD]

Is there a quick video or overview of what would need to be done to meaningfully participate in Paitra this week? It appears that's the only target?

A friend and I have done mostly surface port defense back a month or so ago, and a couple of station defense. I'm not sure whether I should be even shooting a particular target, or sampling it (I did a few Cyclops tissue sample collections, way back when it was first introduced).

Thanks for any guidance, and thank for the effort in maintaining this thread.

 

[Starsong]

Is there a quick video or overview of what would need to be done to meaningfully participate in Paitra this week? It appears that's the only target?

A friend and I have done mostly surface port defense back a month or so ago, and a couple of station defense. I'm not sure whether I should be even shooting a particular target, or sampling it (I did a few Cyclops tissue sample collections, way back when it was first introduced).

Thanks for any guidance, and thank for the effort in maintaining this thread.

Paitra isn't the only recapture target, as it happens! Whilst the samples I'm delivering at the moment appear to be the first batch to actually be sold at the Rescue Ship, AXI are targeting HIP 25679. You can either gather tissue samples in the target system and sell them to the Rescue Ships (most effective method) or go to one of the nearby Alerts/Recoveries and take AX reactivation missions to settlements there.

EDIT: If you're gathering samples near HIP 25679, the carrier Sky of Diamonds is buying Scout and Cyclops tissue samples in the nearby Hyades Sector KH-L b8-5.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Is there a quick video or overview of what would need to be done to meaningfully participate in Paitra this week?

I have a quite concise overview at the top of the thread under Control systems, which is in need of updating again, as is the case once in a while. At present it says this:

AX Conflict Zones are present at the Sol-facing edges of the Maelstrom zones, including for unpopulated systems (source).
Combat is possible by dropping from Supercruise and awaiting Frame Shift Anomalies.
Drop at abandoned ports or installations to help other Commanders join your battle.
Research samples from Interceptors have a strong effect (source).

Some differences now are:

• As far as I can determine, I think every Control system now has Conflict Zones.
• Research samples from Scouts have just as much effect as with Interceptors.
• Settlement reactivation missions from nearby systems can contribute a lot, if a Military settlement is present.

It appears that's the only target?

Paitra was the only target with progress at the stated time, which was immediately after beginning of the cycle; that is to say, said progress was carried forward as surplus. This is quite unfortunate, given that it was rushed late on Wednesday rather than doing it today and avoiding the 33% cost to carry it.

This is very much the place for announcing targets though (thank you @Starsong!), where one can choose to support such in advance or wait until some progress is visible. The next full galaxy check will be in a few hours!

 

[Starsong]

It is a very old bug, which @Jmanis has been following very closely since it started and has some war-specific discussion here; in short, different Commanders get different success rates. There are some interesting trajectory observations regarding success versus failure based on how the target is moving when the limpet finishes its task, but on average over a full hold of limpets, the single factor which affects success rate the most is which Commander is involved.

The insidious part is the later addition of the "Research limpet failed" message, combined with the way that the success rate is relatively consistent for each Commander, suggesting together that some random element is actually intended. This is a false impression though, which one can infer from the cancelled research-related Community Goals, and which one can discover by speaking with other Commanders. I had never used a single Research limpet prior to this, and therefore had no idea at all that the imperfect return was a bug, but it is a bug and it should be a guaranteed success.

As it happens, I get around 80% with a Cyclops and around 95% with Scouts, which gives suitably quick harvests indeed. I know a Commander who gets almost nothing from Scouts while in a Wing, around 25% while solo and around 50% by using only a few limpets at once and targeting the sample cargo as it returns. My Orthrus rate is 5% from 60 limpets total, but there are Commanders who have made more attempts than that and received nothing yet.

Could the bug be affected by FPS or some related setting? I set a frame rate cap of 30 FPS and my sampling success rate with this Cyclops has jumped to at least 75%.
EDIT: A second run that's a dedicated test used 143 limpets and returned 105 samples. 73% percent success rate, definitely over the 50% I was getting before.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

There are some interesting trajectory observations regarding success versus failure based on how the target is moving when the limpet finishes its task, but on average over a full hold of limpets, the single factor which affects success rate the most is which Commander is involved.

It's probably rotation related since you get 0% success rate with a spinning thargoid that's trying to shoot at the limpets on its back and because there's a precedent with that with the "invincible heart" bug that was caused by the rotation/hitbox not being synced.

With how the limpets can also get stuck and not return until you get close to them with your ship my best guess would be some sort of issue with the limpets getting attached to some weird transform/coordinate system and the samples spawning in either inside the collision box or at invalid coordinates. It's also possible there's multiple limpet attach points and only some of the points are broken and only some of the time depending where the thargoid is facing (but this doesn't seem too likely).

around 50% by using only a few limpets at once and targeting the sample cargo as it returns. My Orthrus rate is 5% from 60 limpets total, but there are Commanders who have made more attempts than that and received nothing yet.

If limpets only fail under certain conditions then rapid-firing all your limpets means you're putting all your eggs in one basket and they'll either all fail or succeed at the same time. On normal interceptors the limpets launching/attaching will be more staggered due to the randomness of flight patterns.

With orthrus there's a strict time limit and a more fixed flight pattern so everyone does it the same way and gets similar results.

There's also the possibility that if interceptor sampling works similar to titan sampling and multiple limpets can't attach to the same point at once, which means waiting it out and not launching a 2nd limpet until the first one attaches. That should be testable, but spacing them out would make sampling take way longer. I think it's possible limpets retarget a different attach point on the thargoid if enough time passes behind the scenes.

I don't think it's possible to really debug and figure it out beyond this without extra help/logging from frontier and I don't think there'll be a real workaround for any of it unless there's a way to get a thargoid stuck in a specific way so it's aligned in a way that makes the sampling work - which just means assuming the game is broken enough that a different glitch like that exists.

 

[Starsong]

It's probably rotation related since you get 0% success rate with a spinning thargoid that's trying to shoot at the limpets on its back and because there's a precedent with that with the "invincible heart" bug that was caused by the rotation/hitbox not being synced.

With how the limpets can also get stuck and not return until you get close to them with your ship my best guess would be some sort of issue with the limpets getting attached to some weird transform/coordinate system and the samples spawning in either inside the collision box or at invalid coordinates. It's also possible there's multiple limpet attach points and only some of them points are broken and only some of the time depending where the thargoid is facing (but this doesn't seem too likely).


If limpets only fail under certain conditions then rapid-firing all your limpets means you're putting all your eggs in one basket and they'll either all fail or succeed at the same time. On normal interceptors the limpets launching/attaching will be more staggered due to the randomness of flight patterns.

With orthrus there's a strict time limit and a more fixed flight pattern so everyone does it the same way and gets similar results.

There's also the possibility that in interceptor sampling works similar to titan sampling and multiple limpets can't attach to the same point at once, which means waiting it out and not launching a 2nd limpet until the first one attaches. That should be testable, but spacing them out would make sampling take way longer. I think it's possible limpets retarget a different attach point on the thargoid if enough time passes behind the scenes.

I don't think it's possible to really debug and figure it out beyond this without extra help/logging from frontier and I don't think there'll be a real workaround for any of it unless there's a way to get a thargoid stuck in a specific way so it's aligned in a way that makes the sampling work - which just means assuming the game is broken enough that a different glitch like that exists.

I don't think stacking limpets on the same Thargoid is the problem, or the sampling wings would consistently report significantly lower rates than solo players. It definitely is related to the Thargoid's movement (limpets that detatch from the Goid whilst it's moving in a straight line are significantly more likely to return a sample than limpets released whilst it's turning, at least in my experience), but I'd say you're wrong about there not being a workaround - I (well, CMDR Lion12 thought of it, I just tested it) literally just found one! Artificially lowering FPS to 30 seems to have a large effect on sample rates, possibly due to the lower frames giving the limpets less chance to hit the Thargoid as they launch. FPS differences or a related hardware factor may also explain the individual differences in success rate.

 

[BDelacroix]

. You can either gather tissue samples in the target system and sell them to the Rescue Ships (most effective method) or ...

Once again expressing how very ridiculous this is.

 

[Starsong]

Once again expressing how very ridiculous this is.

Oh yes. "Shall I shoot the hordes of Thargoids? No, I will probe them for a bit and then they'll all run away!"

 

[RaketeMike]

Oh yes. "Shall I shoot the hordes of Thargoids? No, I will probe them for a bit and then they'll all run away!"

Maybe FDev could expand this to human combat as well… a kind of hatch breaker research limpet that works its way all through to the cockpit and then probes the pilot. sorry , btt

 

[CMDR-AD]

Settlement reactivation missions from nearby systems can contribute a lot, if a Military settlement is present.

From nearby systems, too? Do we know if there is a distance (say 20LY)?

Also, are these reactivation missions still single shot? After one CMDR has activated them, they are afterward always active when a later CMDR takes a mission to that same settlement? Last I tried, that seemed to be the case, but I've lost track since then.

Thanks to you and everyone for the direction, BTW.

 

[Starsong]

From nearby systems, too? Do we know if there is a distance (say 20LY)?

Also, are these reactivation missions still single shot? After one CMDR has activated them, they are afterward always active when a later CMDR takes a mission to that same settlement? Last I tried, that seemed to be the case, but I've lost track since then.

Thanks to you and everyone for the direction, BTW.

1. Any systems within 20Ly offer them, I think? The advantage of picking an Alert system specifically is the mission contributes to both the giver and the destination system's war progress.
2. The missions are not single shot. Once the CMDR who has done the mission leaves, the site resets and is ready for another mission.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

From nearby systems, too? Do we know if there is a distance (say 20LY)?

Also, are these reactivation missions still single shot? After one CMDR has activated them, they are afterward always active when a later CMDR takes a mission to that same settlement? Last I tried, that seemed to be the case, but I've lost track since then.

Thanks to you and everyone for the direction, BTW.

AX restoration missions can be taken from systems close to occupied systems containing military settlements poss. 20LY including those without any Thargoid activity.
However only those taken from Alert/Invasion systems will contribute to those systems.
The settlements are always inactive on arrival I've revisited some several times.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Goodness, everyone has been busy! Of course, the Invasions below are all we have for this cycle, so please make any port defence plans accordingly.

Invasions at 18:30 8th June 3309:
HIP 26688 Invasion 54% *55.5% — Taranis 22 Ly, 1 port, 230 Ls 0.4g planet attack
Wolf 121 Invasion 32% *33.7% — Leigong 29 Ly, 4 ports, 1666 Ls 0.1g planet attack
HIP 21474 Invasion 14% *15.8% — Indra 27 Ly, 4 ports, 3638 Ls 0.2g planet attack
Asletae Invasion 12% *12.2% — Cocijo 29 Ly, 4 ports, 22 Ls outpost attack

Evictions:
Paitra Control 36% *36.4% — Cocijo 25 Ly
HIP 25679 Control 2% *3.6% — Taranis 17 Ly

Alerts:
Muncheim Alert 40% *41.1% — Oya 24 Ly, 6 Ls starport, 10 Ls outpost, 6 Ls planet
Pathamon Alert 14% — Leigong 22 Ly
Awara Alert 10% *10.2% — Taranis 22 Ly, 9157 Ls starport, 7962 Ls outpost
HIP 20527 Alert 6% *6.4% — Indra 23 Ly, 595 Ls starport, 595 Ls outpost
HIP 2422 Alert 6% — Oya 24 Ly, 325 Ls starport
Bormuninus Alert 6% — Raijin 24 Ly

Clean-up:
Col 285 Sector UD-G b12-5 Alert 38% — Cocijo 31 Ly, empty

Could the bug be affected by FPS or some related setting? I set a frame rate cap of 30 FPS and my sampling success rate with this Cyclops has jumped to at least 75%.
EDIT: A second run that's a dedicated test used 143 limpets and returned 105 samples. 73% percent success rate, definitely over the 50% I was getting before.

That would be splendid if it works for others; while my own success rate has no problem, I will relay that suggestion immediately!

 

[Starsong]

That would be splendid if it works for others; while my own success rate has no problem, I will relay that suggestion immediately!

It does seem to - CMDR Deanom59 reported his Scout sampling rate went from 25% to 90% using the same trick. Looks like a real game changer for people that had poor rates previously-do you play Elite on a low end computer, out of curiosity?

 

[Starsong]

Another thing I noticed - whilst there is no demand for Scout and Cyclops samples at the Rescue Ships, there is demand for Glaive samples. Has anyone ever tested the effect of Glaive sampling compared to other samples?

 

[deanom59]

I can confirm the increase in successful returns by lowering the in game frame rate. Scout returns were 25-30% at 120fps, around 55-60% at 60 fps and 80-90% at 30 fps. A full load of 80 samples is now much quicker to harvest.
I also get slightly higher returns sampling Inciters, a bit less for Berserkers and less again for Marauders. Difference was more important with the lower return rates as the limiting factor then was total limpet capacity, less so now with the higher return rates.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victories in Col 285 Sectors OB-D b13-1 and OB-D b13-6, HIPs 28183 and 26688, Lyncis Sector TZ-P b5-4, Pegasi Sector QE-N a8-3 and Wolf 121!

Invasions at 07:00 9th June 3309:
HIP 21474 Invasion 50% — Indra 27 Ly, 4 ports, 3638 Ls 0.2g planet attack
Asletae Invasion 40% *40.4% — Cocijo 29 Ly, 4 ports, 22 Ls outpost attack

Evictions:
Paitra Control 36% *36.4% — Cocijo 25 Ly
HIP 25679 Control 4% *4.1% — Taranis 17 Ly

Alerts:
Muncheim Alert 88% — Oya 24 Ly, 6 Ls starport, 10 Ls outpost, 6 Ls planet
HIP 2422 Alert 76% *76.6% — Oya 24 Ly, 192 Ls starport
Baudani Alert 60% — Leigong 25 Ly, 596 Ls planet
Pathamon Alert 20% *21.5% — Leigong 22 Ly, 105 Ls starport, 194 Ls outpost
Awara Alert 16% — Taranis 22 Ly, 9157 Ls starport, 7962 Ls outpost
HIP 20527 Alert 12% *13% — Indra 23 Ly, 595 Ls starport, 595 Ls outpost

Clean-up:
Col 285 Sector UD-G b12-5 Alert 78% — Cocijo 31 Ly, empty
Arietis Sector JR-V b2-2 Alert 28% — Indra 26 Ly, empty
Col 285 Sector TS-Z b14-3 Alert 16% — Hadad 22 Ly, empty

It does seem to - CMDR Deanom59 reported his Scout sampling rate went from 25% to 90% using the same trick. Looks like a real game changer for people that had poor rates previously-do you play Elite on a low end computer, out of curiosity?

It is very valuable observation indeed; due to that problem I have been advising caution whenever I describe harvesting, though I imagine I will discover later today whether it helped for the worst-affected. I could not possibly judge what I have, other than that it is newer than Odyssey with the goal of being able to run it properly, unlike the inability of its predecessor to let me visit a Starport without switching to Horizons. Starports work quite well now!

I can confirm the increase in successful returns by lowering the in game frame rate. Scout returns were 25-30% at 120fps, around 55-60% at 60 fps and 80-90% at 30 fps. A full load of 80 samples is now much quicker to harvest.
I also get slightly higher returns sampling Inciters, a bit less for Berserkers and less again for Marauders. Difference was more important with the lower return rates as the limiting factor then was total limpet capacity, less so now with the higher return rates.

Thank you both ever so much—of another factor which affects the rate at least as much as testing with different Commanders, the discovery is quite important!