How do you feel about ganckers?

[Helmut Grokenberger]

No, it's not wrong at all.
The equality of opportunity is still there.

What you are flying is a free choice of yours, you can pretty easily build a ship that's pretty much unkillable, you have the same tools and equipment at your disposal as I do. You can even build a combat ship yourself and hunt me down if so you choose, even when I'm not in my combat ship.

See, that's showing signs of the typical entitlement of PvPers. "It's totally equal opportunity, you only have to adjust your game to play my game instead of playing the game you want to play". You say that while complaining, very loudly, about "being forced" into other gameplay loops to gather, for example, premium ammo synth and ask for it to be removed. In your case the game is treating you unfairly and is unbalanced, in the case of the PvE "carebare" it's their issue; if they don't adjust their gameplay: Their problem. A lot of the vocal PvPers here treat the game as if there was / should be nothing but PvP. A gameplay loop that favors PvE and "forces" them to do something apart from PvP? Unfair grind, remove it. A gameplay loop that forces PvEers to adjust to the the PvP game? Their problem.

I don't minmax my builds, my ships are capable of surviving in open, so I have no real stake in that race. But I understand the point that PvPers can minmax their ships for their preferred gameplay style (ships go boom) penalty free, while PvEers cannot unless they compromise or accept the penalty of not playing in open. Not having an open PvE mode is a mistake. But I think we all know that, mostly.

 

[Darrack]

Open-only events so that you won't have to worry about the competition working in Solo

Or Solo only so we dont have to worry, works both ways

O7

 

[Morbad]

But I understand the point that PvPers can minmax their ships for their preferred gameplay style (ships go boom) penalty free, while PvEers cannot unless they compromise or accept the penalty of not playing in open.

Even those who exclusively prefer to engage in PvP combat still have to build a vessel capable of it, get it to an area of operation, then pay for it's upkeep. Some of these, such as the logistical aspects I'm so nostalgic for, were much more pronounced problems in the past, but they're still relevant today. All that time spent Engineering ships and ensuring one can pay off a high rate of rebuys is time not spent doing direct PvP activities.

The game's lack of a dedicated simulator mode has likely resulted in most dedicated PvPers paying a far higher opportunity cost than PvE focused players pay to enjoy Open. The changes I need to make to 'Open-proof' a vessel range from non-existent to minor...the biggest difference is in trade ships, and simply dropping the smallest handful of cargo racks for HRPs and MRPs is enough to survive a few hostile CMDR interdictions and get the barely reduced cargo load to it's destination.

Aggressive PvPers engaging in pitched battles or organized tournaments often have many hundreds, or even thousands of rebuys. galahad2069, for example, likely has insurance claim expenditures that rivals my CMDR's gross lifetime income. Materials can be even worse, for some; a large portion, probably over a third, of the people on my CMDR's friends list, ultimately quit the game because all the Engineering PvP required after 2.1 became too much of a time sink. Even gankers spend a lot of time in Solo licking rocks and picking through garbage to fuel their premium ammo addictions (I can see when they do this on my contacts list too).

 

[BDelacroix]

It's as simple as "Ha ha, ship goes boom." It's not more complicated than that. Ships explode. Pixels fly. Someone pays a rebuy. The cost of death in this game is so minimal unless you make a conscious decision to fly your first anaconda without rebuy or cash in your months of exploration data in Shinrarta Dezra. Although the near constant stream of Reddit posts would tell us that plenty of CMDRs are always ready to do both those things.

At the risk of stirring this pot more. I want to add that game money is the least problem with "kill you for the lulz". It is your time wasted. Time is the most valuable commodity.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Even those who exclusively prefer to engage in PvP combat still have to build a vessel capable of it, get it to an area of operation, then pay for it's upkeep. Some of these, such as the logistical aspects I'm so nostalgic for, were much more pronounced problems in the past, but they're still relevant today. All that time spent Engineering ships and ensuring one can pay off a high rate of rebuys is time not spent doing direct PvP activities.

The game's lack of a dedicated simulator mode has likely resulted in most dedicated PvPers paying a far higher opportunity cost than PvE focused players pay to enjoy Open. The changes I need to make to 'Open-proof' a vessel range from non-existent to minor...the biggest difference is in trade ships, and simply dropping the smallest handful of cargo racks for HRPs and MRPs is enough to survive a few hostile CMDR interdictions and get the barely reduced cargo load to it's destination.

Aggressive PvPers engaging in pitched battles or organized tournaments often have many hundreds, or even thousands of rebuys. galahad2069, for example, likely has insurance claim expenditures that rivals my CMDR's gross lifetime income. Materials can be even worse, for some; a large portion, probably over a third, of the people on my CMDR's friends list, ultimately quit the game because all the Engineering PvP required after 2.1 became too much of a time sink. Even gankers spend a lot of time in Solo licking rocks and picking through garbage to fuel their premium ammo addictions (I can see when they do this on my contacts list too).

yeah and those PvPers don't shut up about how unfair and unbalanced the game is in making them do stuff they don't want to do so they can pew pew. And in their case they place themselves as those advanced players who have left the boundaries of puny PvE behind them. If a PvE player complains about a gameplay loop they don't want to to (PvP), they are ridiculed, mocked, called carebear and/or told to git gud. Even you kind of glorified them in you post - I don't care how many rebuys galahad has. It's not a sign of superiority.

 

[Darrack]

Even those who exclusively prefer to engage in PvP combat still have to build a vessel capable of it, get it to an area of operation, then pay for it's upkeep. Some of these, such as the logistical aspects I'm so nostalgic for, were much more pronounced problems in the past, but they're still relevant today. All that time spent Engineering ships and ensuring one can pay off a high rate of rebuys is time not spent doing direct PvP activities.

The game's lack of a dedicated simulator mode has likely resulted in most dedicated PvPers paying a far higher opportunity cost than PvE focused players pay to enjoy Open. The changes I need to make to 'Open-proof' a vessel range from non-existent to minor...the biggest difference is in trade ships, and simply dropping the smallest handful of cargo racks for HRPs and MRPs is enough to survive a few hostile CMDR interdictions and get the barely reduced cargo load to it's destination.

Aggressive PvPers engaging in pitched battles or organized tournaments often have many hundreds, or even thousands of rebuys. galahad2069, for example, likely has insurance claim expenditures that rivals my CMDR's gross lifetime income. Materials can be even worse, for some; a large portion, probably over a third, of the people on my CMDR's friends list, ultimately quit the game because all the Engineering PvP required after 2.1 became too much of a time sink. Even gankers spend a lot of time in Solo licking rocks and picking through garbage to fuel their premium ammo addictions (I can see when they do this on my contacts list too).

All this making your ship Open proof and losing cargo space, folks complaining that in CGS Solo players have an advantage, Open players should get a bonus etc etc, we have been here before in the Hotel lobby, bar and veranda and the same thing is always there, it your choice to fly in Open, if you feel disadvantaged switch to Solo/PG.

Im not complaining in Solo, im a happy camper, all i could wish for in ED is PVE Open, that wont happen but i can live with it, play your own way.

O7

 

[Screemonster]

I'd get the same kit, build it once as instructed, throw it down the stairs to see how it exploded, then build something better.

This one was pretty spectacular when I (or more accurately, my brother) did it with mine.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

we have been here before in the Hotel lobby, bar and veranda and the same thing is always there

Yes this is, again, very Hotel California. Expect the thread to be closed soon with a notice of the existence of the Open/Solo thread.

 

[Morbad]

yeah and those PvPers don't shut up about how unfair and unbalanced the game is in making them do stuff they don't want to do so they can pew pew. And in their case they place themselves as those advanced players who have left the boundaries of puny PvE behind them. If a PvE player complains about a gameplay loop they don't want to to (PvP), they are ridiculed, mocked, called carebear and/or told to git gud.

This sounds like an over generalization and even if it wasn't, it wouldn't have anything to do with the relative balance or imbalance of opportunity the game provides.

Even you kind of glorified them in you post - I don't care how many rebuys galahad has. It's not a sign of superiority.

Well that's a weird take on things. Pointing out that galahad's CMDR gets shot down dozens of times as often as my CMDR wasn't a glorification of anything. It is however, an example of a significant expense implicit to aggressive PvP playstyles that is oft neglected when talking about the trade-offs players have to make to engage in certain activities.

This one was pretty spectacular when I (or more accurately, my brother) did it with mine.

I don't think I had that specific one, but the green cockpit/windsceen seems really familiar.

 

[Darkfyre99]

more shields, less cargo, more hrp/mrp, more skill boosters

My CG cutter is a 784t shieldless cutter - which has no problem to survive any npc attempt, but will crumble in less than 10s versus any half competent player.

In all honestly, the amount of time and money I'd save having a 6A shield generator would be well worth the loss of 64 tons of cargo, irregardless of whether there's a threat, PC or NPC. And once you have a shield generator, boosting that shield costs you nothing but utility slots.

And quite frankly, most gankers I would not describe reaching the level of half-competent. They rely far too much on their prey cooperating with their own death to be considered even half-competent.

Sure i could fly a 720t cuttter that could survive interdictions - but that would be un-optimal in terms of ferrying capacity not to mention that each interdiction and the potential high wake - are counterproductive to the goal of ferrying goods

For me, the shields are there to cushion my high speed landings, saving me time and money, which is much more productive in the long term when it comes to ferrying cargo than an extra 64 tons of cargo. I’d gladly accept an 8% reduction in cargo capacity if it comes with up to 50% more* round trips, and 1000% more fun, compared to trying to avoid damage by running without minimal shields.

The fact that they also make it possible to survive interdictions is a bonus.

If we would get a CG to kill other players, the premise would be absolutely different - but all we have are PVE missions and objectives, and PVP is a drag to any and each of those missions/objectives.

For those who don’t enjoy that kind of thing, sure. But I’d gladly accept a reduction in efficiency for an increase of fun, regardless of whether we’re talking PvP or PvE. I bring a passenger cabin on exploration ships just for role playing considerations, after all. I’d rather not optimize all the joy out of this game. Frontier did enough of that on their own.

And again, I’m not taking any extra precautions in Open than I would in Solo. The only difference is that on average, the NPC is likely the bigger threat, because they’re more competent than the typical ganker.

Anyway - with that ship is quite a miracle you survived, possibly because you were already at the destination station

To be fair, neither coriolis nor edshipyard can handle legacy modules. This is closer to what the ship would be like in game, but the nice thing about legacy modules is that they don't have as severe disadvantages that the current engineering does.

- if you were interdicted on the way i'm afraid you'd have wasted a run and a full cargo hold - which might not be a big issue in a normal CG, but IT REALLY IS a big issue in the current "rares" trade cg

I don't fly in Supercruise either blindfolded or slow. I was well aware of where the likely threats were, and there wasn't any threat of interdiction at the time. If their had been, that’s where the fun would’ve begun.

*on a typical one-hop run.

 

[Screemonster]

The only difference is that on average, the NPC is likely the bigger threat, because they’re more competent than the typical ganker.

NPCs are certainly more capable of finding you again after you perform the most basic of evasion, what with their ability to just spawn directly behind you. Another player actually has to be there.

 

[HappyMoonMonkey]

At the risk of stirring this pot more. I want to add that game money is the least problem with "kill you for the lulz". It is your time wasted. Time is the most valuable commodity.

It absolutely is! But some players do need to be realistic about how they are "wasting" their time as well. If someone is grinding for hours at mining or exobiology because they want the cash, rather than enjoying the activity for what it is, and then die before cashing in(by another's hand, NPC or even their own error) then they have to accept that they took that risk to put all their eggs in one basket.
What other time is being wasted? The interdiction time? Fairly negligible and you're at risk of being interdicted by an NPC anyway.

 

[galahad2069]

See, that's showing signs of the typical entitlement of PvPers. "It's totally equal opportunity, you only have to adjust your game to play my game instead of playing the game you want to play". You say that while complaining, very loudly, about "being forced" into other gameplay loops to gather, for example, premium ammo synth and ask for it to be removed. In your case the game is treating you unfairly and is unbalanced, in the case of the PvE "carebare" it's their issue; if they don't adjust their gameplay: Their problem. A lot of the vocal PvPers here treat the game as if there was / should be nothing but PvP. A gameplay loop that favors PvE and "forces" them to do something apart from PvP? Unfair grind, remove it. A gameplay loop that forces PvEers to adjust to the the PvP game? Their problem.

I don't minmax my builds, my ships are capable of surviving in open, so I have no real stake in that race. But I understand the point that PvPers can minmax their ships for their preferred gameplay style (ships go boom) penalty free, while PvEers cannot unless they compromise or accept the penalty of not playing in open. Not having an open PvE mode is a mistake. But I think we all know that, mostly.

You talk as if PvPers were totally exempt from PvE activities.

For your information, I started to play in late 2016. I was a PvP noob in 2018, which means more than a year of PvE-only gameplay. Credits did not exactly use to be as easy back then as they are today, and ofc there was a lot of engineering to be done (under the old system, which was terrible compared to the current implementation but I digress).
Yes, PvP is the #1 activity I've been doing since 2018, but that does not in the least mean that I could just forget PvE altogether. I have a carrier, an entire fleet of ships (all engineered to the teeth) and a reasonably fat bank account, and all those materials and billions of credits had to come from somewhere after all.

Not to mention that PvP is not exactly a cheap passion (and that's only my main account):

I've participated in pretty much all kind of activites this game has to offer. Killed Thargoids, bounty hunted a lot, hauled cargo, jumped around, first discovered ELWs, neutron jumped, took carrier tours, farmed raw materials, grinded Guardian ruins, drove the SRV way more miles than I enjoyed, did on-foot things, etc. etc. Even participated in several hauling CGs (in Open), and believe it or not, I'm not immune to getting interdicted by other PvPers, not even by those who are on my friend list (which is pretty significant part of the community).

In other words, I've probably done much more PvE than many PvE-only players and my gameplay has always been affected by the exact same factors as theirs (plus a couple more PvP-specific things).

Oh, and pointing out on a public game forum that certain elements of game mechanics are broken, unbalanced or otherwise unoptimally designed is not 'complaining very loudly', it's simply called participation in forum discussions.

Or Solo only so we dont have to worry, works both ways

That literally makes zero sense since you already have an advantage over those who are doing the same things in Open.

 

[Darrack]

That literally makes zero sense since you already have an advantage over those who are doing the same things in Open.

Nope, those in Open give themselves a disadvantage, not my fault.

O7

 

[Riverside]

That literally makes zero sense since you already have an advantage over those who are doing the same things in Open.

Nope, those in Open give themselves a disadvantage, not my fault.

O7

The open vs solo/PvE group choice for CGs & similar is more of a hotel california type topic but whether there is an advantage very much depends on what the player is looking to get out of the event. I certainly agree doing a CG in solo will get more stuff delivered & there will be no pad blockers but that player won't have the same social experience. In group there is a kind of community experience centred around the CG, in Open there is a much more 'exciting' experience where the sense of achievement is elevated all the way down the list of contributors, not only for the top few.

IMO Open play is its own reward.

 

[galahad2069]

Nope, those in Open give themselves a disadvantage, not my fault.

What you said before (what I replied to) still does not make any sense since you've never had to worry about what the competition was doing in Open.

 

[Darrack]

in Open there is a much more 'exciting' experience

Again it depends on your idea of excitement, im glad folks in Open enjoy it, but its not for me.
I love the freedom Solo and PG gives me, i can build silly ships without a worry, i have a Pirate Annie with full Cannons, rubbish as it is, its just so much fun.
If i want to go and annoy players i can hop in the Vette and head into congested Open systems and do that, on my terms.
CGs and mining inside the bubble become relaxing and not stressy, my life is stressy and difficult enough without Jim Hensons crew

O7

 

[Darrack]

What you said before (what I replied to) still does not make any sense since you've never had to worry about what the competition was doing in Open.

But how is that Soloers fault?
I have no issue with what folks are doing in Open, it doesn't effect me

O7

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

You talk as if PvPers were totally exempt from PvE activities.

For your information, I started to play in late 2016. I was a PvP noob in 2018, which means more than a year of PvE-only gameplay. Credits did not exactly use to be as easy back then as they are today, and ofc there was a lot of engineering to be done (under the old system, which was terrible compared to the current implementation but I digress).

A lot of PvPers don't need me to do that, they manage fine to give the impression that PvE is an undesired annoyance by themselves.

In other words, I've probably done much more PvE than many PvE-only players

uh huh.

Oh, and pointing out on a public game forum that certain elements of game mechanics are broken, unbalanced or otherwise unoptimally designed is not 'complaining very loudly', it's simply called participation in forum discussions.

Well that's not exactly what happened in that other thread. You were complaining very adamantly how soul crushing collecting mats and how unfair ammo synth was and how you were forced "to shoot rocks" (which didn't sound like an experienced PvE player), because it rattled the meta, and god forbid that and wanted it removed. Everyone else just said: "Dude, just collect your mats".

 

[galahad2069]

But how is that Soloers fault?

Did I say something like anything was Soloers' fault?
If so, quote me please.
If not, well, then please leave me out of your fighting with strawmans.