Another disappointment

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Usually, after a series of clarifying questions, such people say “they tried glasses from a friend.” There are those who play simulation games with a mouse and keyboard.

I'm not so sure about it, but I can't be bothered to go look for those posts. They were by "known good" VR owners .

But if you've put thousands of hours into a game, it's foolish to pass up the great fun and immersion through joysticks, pedals and VR.

Yeah, sure. I've put 3000 hours into Elite, all in VR. I wouldn't ever want to play on the flat screen. But I also know that, market share wise, I'm a minority. Nobody cares about me (I need a hug).

 

[Rat Catcher]

See, this is debateable even amongst the VR players. Certainly I do think so, and I've always said that, on the flat screen, you play a spaceship game, but in VR, you fly a frikkin' spaceship. But I've read numerous posts here from people actually owning VR who said "nuh, most time can't be bothered, I just prefer 2D". You have to be a very special individual to endure strapping an uncomfortable warm headset to your forehead for hours.

Certainly ED is amazing in VR, much more immersive than flat screen, but I still play 90%+ in pancake because RL demands mean that the HMD would be on & off too often..
I have a reasonable library of VR only games that are, generally, good fun (I have Skyrim & FO4 VR too) but I can't spend hours in a HMD playing, even if I wished such.

It isn't the "new era" of VR yet, despite it being proclaimed as so since I got the Rift in 2017 - but it is nice to have, even the Q3, which is lighter and better resolution than my Index, still isn't convenient enough to wish to use all of the time - maybe that is just me though...

 

[Shurimal]

just a while ago i read somewhere that audiophiles dont use their hardware to listen to music. they use music to listen to their audio setup

This is absolutely, 100% true! It's madness how obsessive we get about minuscule differences, real or imagined

 

[Rat Catcher]

Usually, after a series of clarifying questions, it turns out that such people “tried glasses from a friend.” )

Wow! That is almost as senseless as claiming that older people all use PCs from 2014 or earlier...

But if you've put thousands of hours into a game, it's foolish to pass up the great fun and immersion through joysticks, pedals and VR.

In your opinion, naturally...

I have around 7,000 hours in ED since 2017, Have Virpil HOTAS (I tried pedals, didn't do it for me) and only have a fraction of that time played in VR, yet have had at least 1 VR HMD to use throughout (more often 2)

 

[Darkfyre99]

Certainly ED is amazing in VR, much more immersive than flat screen, but I still play 90%+ in pancake because RL demands mean that the HMD would be on & off too often..
I have a reasonable library of VR only games that are, generally, good fun (I have Skyrim & FO4 VR too) but I can't spend hours in a HMD playing, even if I wished such.

^^^
This, though in my case, it’s more like 80% VR, 20% pancake. When RL inevitably demands that I can’t shut myself off from the world with my Vive and my 3D headphones, such as what happened last night, I typically play other games instead.

But not always. Sometimes what I want to do in Elite is a better fit for pancake than VR. Like exploration. The long standing FSS bug of not showing orbit lines while zoomed in in VR isn’t as impactful in Odyssey as it was in Horizons, but it still remains impactful. Maybe if so much necessary planetary data was accessible from the cockpit itself, rather than additional “big screens,” I’d feel differently. But as it stands, exploration is definitely one activity where I ask myself “Is this headset really worth the hassle to get it set up?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

[Survival mechanics] would be tricky to implement in Elite anyway, what with the real-time nature of the game.

I don't think the real-time bit is a problem, so long as your own personal timers only tick down when you're logged in. Something like the SRV refuelling synthesis is a (very mild) survival mechanic if you're out in deep space and works fine.

Though it also hits on the point of why they wouldn't be a good fit: there are so few places - especially with Fleet Carriers - where you're not already within a few minutes of an infinite source of resupply, that it's basically irrelevant. Even in the early days of Horizons the only way you'd end up short of refuel/repair for your SRV was if you'd spent too long collecting high-end rocks and forgotten to leave any space for a few phosphorous and sulphur. Once Beyond 3.0 moved to per-material storage it stopped mattering entirely.

But if you've put thousands of hours into a game, it's foolish to pass up the great fun and immersion through joysticks, pedals and VR.

As counterpoints, I've spent thousands of hours on ED, sure, over the years. But the computer I use for ED is also used for far more weekly hours for work and non-flightsim games (many, non-3D games), so there's simply not enough room around my desk for a joystick and pedals and so on that I'd use for just one thing; finding somewhere to put my headphones when I'm not using them is about the limit.

As for VR between my tendency towards motion sickness in real-life and the need to have some awareness of my surroundings to interact with other members of the household, I can't see myself ever getting a set even if it didn't require a four-figure outlay on the headset plus a substantial system upgrade to make it work.

 

[metatheurgist]

Anyone remember 3DTVs?

 

[Rat Catcher]

Anyone remember 3DTVs?

Remember?
I still have my 3D plasma TV and 3D Blu-Ray player

 

[Darkfyre99]

Anyone remember 3DTVs?

Yep! I also remember playing the original Everquest and other games at the time using special glasses that would transform my monitor into a 3D one. Which was cool for a while, but was inevitably put aside.

VR is great, but it's not the be all and end all of gaming. It's another peripheral, like a HOTAS setup, and not every game will be a good fit for it. Or even every activity in a game that's otherwise a good fit for it.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

Even if they added 20 new ships, made all planets landable, had ELWs full of lush forests and animals, implemented base building, implemented full ship interiors, implemented quests with storylines... the same people will still complain how it's "too little too late" and how the game is dead.

I would still complain cause none of that stuff matters and it's not adding to the stuff that made elite last so long for many players who have been continously playing it for all these years.

"Implemented gameplay" is what's needed. I know it's kind of implied that any new content comes with gameplay, but the way FDev has been doing things it's content with minimal gameplay or slight twists on old gameplay - like how we didn't get new gameplay or a new weapon that's not just a modification of an existing weapon or existing gameplay out of the thargoid war.

The game needs more designed space PvE encounters/scenarios that are challenging (and not in a bullet spongy way) and not some random shiny new features like NMS.

 

[Cosmo]

Even if they added 20 new ships, made all planets landable, had ELWs full of lush forests and animals, implemented base building, implemented full ship interiors, implemented quests with storylines... the same people will still complain how it's "too little too late" and how the game is dead.

After all, that's exactly what happened when they published the Odyssey expansion.

If they added all the things you mentioned the active player stats would likely be 10-30x the current rate.

Odyssey launched too early. It was buggy and unoptimized. Some people expected ship interiors which wasn't included.

 

[Rory12]

VR is great, but it's not the be all and end all of gaming. It's another peripheral, like a HOTAS setup, and not every game will be a good fit for it. Or even every activity in a game that's otherwise a good fit for it.

Perhaps I write a lot about VR and it seems offtopic.

I just wanted to say that we probably don’t need so much new, but we need to strengthen the advantages of ED that already exist. VR is one example because there are people who play ED only because of VR.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

Before I start having my rant, let me just say as someone with a Vive XR Elite VR Headset that I'm use for development, I would love there to be on foot VR in Elite. However, I understand why it's not in and probably won't be coming anytime soon, if at all (Heck if fdev want to surprise me go ahead) ;-

1. On Foot VR is a lot harder to develop than any sit down VR experience. With the sit-down experience, it's a case of mapping the head movement and that's effectively it. I remember DB saying is was an experiment because they found it relatively simple to implement using the Occulus SDK, and were amazed that they'd captured lightning in a bottle. On Foot, you've got player movement, replacement gestures for menu actions, handling weapons (there's a reason Half Life Alex only has single handed weapons!) , interactions with the environments, etc. There's a lot more that needs to be done.
2. Cost - With all the extra work that it would entail to put in, you need development staff that specialise in VR development and quite a few of them at that. Half Life Alex had more people working on it than fdev had working on the whole of Odyssey. That's quite expensive talent you've got to buy in or train up.
3. The Cobra Engine - again, I'm not familiar with this engine (so I might be talking out of my posterior) , but both the Unreal engine and Unity have VR support built in. There is a lot of code you don't have to worry about, because it's built in. With any custom engine, you're going to have to code that boilerplate stuff in yourself before you get to the same state, which adds to the cost. Yes that will add VR into the engine, but looking at the rest of Fdev's games, where do you see the Use Case for it? Maybe walking around your theme park or zoo maybe, but that's a vanity item. (Although trying to recapture a lion/velociraptor) in VR might be scary. Heck can you ride the roller coasters in Planet Coaster? But that's back to a sit down VR Experiance. There's a lot of complaint that NMS has on-foot VR and Elite doesn't, again I suspect that's down to the engine of the two respective games.
4. User Base - I don't have the exact numbers for ED, but its a small percentage of the player base that have access to VR technology. It certainly wouldn't justify all the above effort to develop it for free. It would feel that the vast amount of Elite players would be subsidising the few that have a VR headset, which is very (and you'll have to excuse the pun) elitist. Would I be OK with a paid for VR update, hell yes, but it would still have to make the company money (you have to remember its the Game Business, not the Game Charity).

I'm afraid the only way I see on foot VR coming to Elite (especially in light of Fdev's current financial woes), is if either Meta, Vive or Sony turn around and pay Fdev to put it in for their platform, which would then reduce the game to an exclusive title and can you imagine the salt on the forums if that happens.

I'm sorry that this comes across negative, but I'm just realistic about the prospects. Heck, if they turn around this afternoon with their livestream and say 'And one more thing, on foot vr is coming in update x', I'd be over the moon. It's just I don't see that happening, especially with fdev's current circumstances.

 

[Ozric]

Some people expected ship interiors which wasn't included.

Surely that's completely their own fault though for expecting things that no one at Frontier said were coming. Isn't it?

Just like those who get angry/upset/disappointed by going off of other people's reactions to things, rather than trying it themselves to see what it's actually feels like in the moment.

 

[Rat Catcher]

The game needs more designed space PvE encounters/scenarios that are challenging (and not in a bullet spongy way) and not some random shiny new features like NMS.

We have Thargoids - which are very challenging if not in a team / big group... but I agree entirely otherwise!

Would I be OK with a paid for VR update, hell yes, but it would still have to make the company money (you have to remember its the Game Business, not the Game Charity).

I'd be happy to throw £30 for a full implementation, well executed (i.e. not a bugfest) as it would be effectively another expansion to the game, but I don't honestly think there are enough VR enthusiasts playing to make the cost of development back with a reasonably priced expansion.

And, no, I don't believe that 'millions would buy EDO in VR' in the same way that millions wouldn't be flocking to play EDO on console... (despite the protestations of the faithful!)

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Before I start having my rant, let me just say as someone with a Vive XR Elite VR Headset that I'm use for development, I would love there to be on foot VR in Elite. However, I understand why it's not in and probably won't be coming anytime soon, if at all (Heck if fdev want to surprise me go ahead) ;-

1. On Foot VR is a lot harder to develop than any sit down VR experience. With the sit-down experience, it's a case of mapping the head movement and that's effectively it. I remember DB saying is was an experiment because they found it relatively simple to implement using the Occulus SDK, and were amazed that they'd captured lightning in a bottle. On Foot, you've got player movement, replacement gestures for menu actions, handling weapons (there's a reason Half Life Alex only has single handed weapons!) , interactions with the environments, etc. There's a lot more that needs to be done.
2. Cost - With all the extra work that it would entail to put in, you need development staff that specialise in VR development and quite a few of them at that. Half Life Alex had more people working on it than fdev had working on the whole of Odyssey. That's quite expensive talent you've got to buy in or train up.
3. The Cobra Engine - again, I'm not familiar with this engine (so I might be talking out of my posterior) , but both the Unreal engine and Unity have VR support built in. There is a lot of code you don't have to worry about, because it's built in. With any custom engine, you're going to have to code that boilerplate stuff in yourself before you get to the same state, which adds to the cost. Yes that will add VR into the engine, but looking at the rest of Fdev's games, where do you see the Use Case for it? Maybe walking around your theme park or zoo maybe, but that's a vanity item. (Although trying to recapture a lion/velociraptor) in VR might be scary. Heck can you ride the roller coasters in Planet Coaster? But that's back to a sit down VR Experiance. There's a lot of complaint that NMS has on-foot VR and Elite doesn't, again I suspect that's down to the engine of the two respective games.
4. User Base - I don't have the exact numbers for ED, but its a small percentage of the player base that have access to VR technology. It certainly wouldn't justify all the above effort to develop it for free. It would feel that the vast amount of Elite players would be subsidising the few that have a VR headset, which is very (and you'll have to excuse the pun) elitist. Would I be OK with a paid for VR update, hell yes, but it would still have to make the company money (you have to remember its the Game Business, not the Game Charity).

I'm afraid the only way I see on foot VR coming to Elite (especially in light of Fdev's current financial woes), is if either Meta, Vive or Sony turn around and pay Fdev to put it in for their platform, which would then reduce the game to an exclusive title and can you imagine the salt on the forums if that happens.

I'm sorry that this comes across negative, but I'm just realistic about the prospects. Heck, if they turn around this afternoon with their livestream and say 'And one more thing, on foot vr is coming in update x', I'd be over the moon. It's just I don't see that happening, especially with fdev's current circumstances.

Great summary.

The usual counter arguments are "but we don't need full room scale, just slap a HUD on the existing vanity cam and be done!" and "but modders added VR to <insert game here>, it can't be that tough!".

Regarding the first argument, we've already seen in this thread that there's the full counter position "full room scale or bust!" position out there. Also I don't think Frontier have any inclination to ruin their reputation with such a bodge job, because there will be loads of players who will be taken to vomit central by such an approach. "Well make it optional, call it an alpha!" - I don't think so. With how well perceived VR is for ship gameplay (even though it is very annoying that smoke and explosions are just 2D sprites that turn with your head movement), this is a recipe for disaster. It's a bodge job no developer would want to release, and for every player demanding that bodge job, there will be an equal amount of players yelling "what? No room scale? Worst game ever!!!!". Modders can do bodge, developers surely can't.

As for "but modders", remember that freelance non-paid modders don't get paid by the hour, and it doesn't matter if what they do takes one or one hundred hours. Also modders can publish anything they want, call it "alpha" or "experimental" and be done with it. I don't think it's a feasable path for the dev of a game.

 

[Darkfyre99]

If they added all the things you mentioned the active player stats would likely be 10-30x the current rate.

Agreed in principle, but I doubt that would be that huge.

Odyssey launched too early.

Also agreed.

It was buggy and unoptimized.

Also agreed, though I benefited from coincidentally having very similar build to David Braben's computer, which was probably part of the reason why it was released too early. It's a very poor IT department that doesn't make sure one of its testing rigs is identical to their CEO's, which is why I was a bit confused about all the complaints at the time. "If my eight year old rig can handle Odyssey, why are so many people having so many problems?" is something I said at the time. Learning that tidbit of knowledge suddenly made things clear.

Some people expected ship interiors which wasn't included.

Which really confused me. How many times did Frontier say that ship interiors wouldn't be included with Odyssey, and yet they expected it anyways??? But then again, the OP was disappointed that update 18 didn't include features that Frontier said it wouldn't.

I just wanted to say that we probably don’t need so much new, but we need to strengthen the advantages of ED that already exist. VR is one example because there are people who play ED only because of VR.

I can certainly understand that. I play Elite Dangerous because its the closest to being a "scifi everything game" on the market, because it is the top notch sci-fi space flight simulator on the market, and because it's part of the Elite franchise. I would play the game regardless of whether it is in VR or not. I certainly played it before I got a VR headset, and in fact it was the deciding factor for whether I would pay the considerable amount of money to get a headset in the first place.

But what I want most from ED is for it to continue to evolve and add new features, in particular for it to expand upon the types of worlds we can land on. Ship, station, and large surface base interiors would be a nice bonus I wouldn't say no to, but it's lower on my priority list, partially because that type of gameplay doesn't translate easily into VR, but mostly because the real-time online nature of the game isn't a good fit into my life right now.

Frontier is a for-profit company that in the end has to justify further development of this game as profitable. Retaining the current VR playerbase by investing the considerable resources necessary into roomscale VR for onfoot gameplay won't be profitable, especially compared to investing those same resources into a paid update that expands upon the foundation Odyssey laid, which would attract new players to the franchise, retain current players (both VR and non-), and hopefully tempt old players to return.

But then again, I would've thought that Frontier would've invested in the resources to update their Cobra engine to take advantage of the now-current generation consoles. If they'd done that, and not rushed Odyssey to market before it was ready, they might be in a very different place right now, especially when it comes to this game.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Which really confused me. How many times did Frontier say that ship interiors wouldn't be included with Odyssey, and yet they expected it anyways???

It was nowhere mentioned that the Python II would be in U18, and people were still miffed that is wasn't. Never underestimate the power of making your own hype a reality .

 

[Rory12]

But what I want most from ED is for it to continue to evolve and add new features, in particular for it to expand upon the types of worlds we can land on. Ship, station, and large surface base interiors would be a nice bonus I wouldn't say no to, but it's lower on my priority list, partially because that type of gameplay doesn't translate easily into VR, but mostly because the real-time online nature of the game isn't a good fit into my life right now.

Agree.

I think we all launch ED because it is a whole galaxy and space in which we want to be present. The more immersion, the better.


I wouldn't say that ED is just a game. Does it require grinding with building a base or discovering the ruins of an unknown civilization on the outskirts of the galaxy? Are new ships needed or would be better to add more physics to the old ones, including flight in the atmosphere?

I only know one thing for sure: I don’t want arcade of no man sky in ED.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

I wouldn't say that ED is just a game.

Agree. I would guess for most "veterans", i.e. CMDRs that have put a significant amount of hours into the game (thousands), it's probably more of a hobby than a game. I know it is for me, at the least when judging what money I spent to play it - input devices, VR headsets, computer upgrades to be able to run said VR... it goes in the thousands. It's also the closest I will ever get to getting into space and fly a spaceship. I don't always need an agenda, a mission or "something" to do. Sometimes I just sit down in my favorite cockpit and fly around, and that's happy time. Didn't have anything remotely like that with any other game I ever played.

I only know one thing for sure: I don’t want arcade of no man sky in ED.

I tried NMS in VR first, and it was terrible, and when I first got the ship running and had my first "flight", I thought: Is this a joke? I then tossed it aside and didn't touch it for... two years maybe? At that point I took a friends advice to try it in 2D instead. And that was okayish, not brilliant but okay, I did fly with a controller and it was... again, okayish but meh, and just a means to get from A to B. No wonder you can skip almost all space flight in NMS, because it sucks. I also didn't really like the art style and presentation, and the overabundance of flora and fauna on almost every planet. I played the main story line (which was way to esoteric for me) and then put it aside. I much prefer the tendency towards realism and being flight sim-ish ED has. We have some questionable stuff too, and some handwavium, but the ED galaxy I belive. NMS... not so much.