What if we got something to do with the Thargoids that wasn't just killing them?

[Jumpin' Jack Flash]

Hi All

Oh. When I provided absolute proof, from the original game, by the same creator.......(Abbreviated).

Aha!, you've nailed it in one there, the 'Creator', or generally known as 'The Creator's'.
This is where I think everybody here, from Thargoids, Guardians and Humans are missing the plot. It's the Creator's and their leader we ultimately have to deal with eventually, if (if you want it) peace in the Galaxy is to be achieved / restored imho.

What we already know?.

1. Their leader, it's the male of this particular species, fly's a ship occasionally, there is documented proof (I just can't find it at the moment) and that he traverse's our galaxy with impunity. The last reported sighting was Cambridge Starport I believe.

2.The Creators surpass all other known races in the galaxy in technology including various weapons of destruction. I sometimes wonder where the weapons we see now being used against the Thargoids actually come from. They filter through our shipyards under the guise of weapons produced by one Faction or another. I have my doubts. Pfft!
My theory is, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), it's the Creator's that ultimately supply these weapons.
Also, not forgetting that the Creators can also be very, very devious btw. This is how they also became known as 'The Dev's', a slang term used by many an Honest Trader, back in the day.
We also know from various reliable sources that they (the Creator's) are building some new devastating types of ships, one of which looks remarkably like the Faulcon DeLacy 'Python', Our intel sources also say it has a very sinister look to it, very different from the jolly old Python we know and love..

So, to sum up (If you've read this far ).
If we could communicate with the Thargoids and Guardians in a more cordial and amiable way we'd have a better chance against the real threat >*

* (Denotes the 'Creators' btw. )

Jack

 

[CMDR ROGER]

Perhaps be more careful when replying when there are lots of people participating in a thread. I know it can be confusing when several people are saying different things. Go back and read and know who & what you are replying to.

I am replying to the exact part of your comment I intended to reply to

Clarifying what I already said: I am not playing Elite 1984. In the Elite Dangerous game I am playing it is speculative "who-shot-who" as humans expanded outward and stumbled upon Thargoids. It was human choice to build colonies in areas that had Thargoid presence, which now appears to have been Thargoid Territory for a very very long time. And it was Humans that chose to return to these systems and fight so colonies could grow and expand.

And to clarify on my remark, I see the inconvenient discussion of Thargoids shooting first has led to the conversation being about territory instead I.E. the goalpost has moved.

So let's discuss their territory then, since that's where the goalpost is now. I don't recall humans ever building things on top of meta-alloy farms, and systems are so big it literally takes causality itself hours or days to move between planets and other stars (hence needing to work around relativity). So either humans are building their things over MA farms, or Thargoids are tetchy and looking for excuses to shoot that'll result in some humans being sympathetic, and so will kill humans over outposts coming within entire light seconds of their silly unsheltered farms.

 

[Rainbro]

Original Elite. 1984. Thargoids would pull you out of hyperspace and attack without provocation.

That should suffice, no?

I see I've missed two pages since this comment, but I think there's one major flaw with this that I see come up a lot.

This is a question of who shot first, right? Disregarding that this was a different conflict...history doesn't start with the original Elite. That's the first playable bit, sure, but that's not the same as "Day 1: Thargoids attacking".

In lore, the conflict already underway at the time of 1984 Elite's playable section began in Veliaze. FFE's journals were very clear that this conflict was started by humans, and while we can't say for sure how much of this is canon to Dangerous, it seems likely that the broad themes remain the same since Dangerous references FFE's material on this (through this GalNet, and a tourist beacon that directly names the journal articles from FFE).

The Thargoids were first reported in human space by Lens Nikon, supervisor of the 'Planets Unlimited' Terra-formation Project on New Africa (Veliaze -2,3). They appeared in large numbers following the initial stages of planetary alteration. Initially only the Thargons were seen, flying in linear formation at a steady distance from the Planets Unlimited fleet.It was only after the instigation of oxygenation that a mother ship was observed from a distance and no hostile action was reported until one of the Fleet Commanders ordered his defence wing to "melt them down".

Elite 1984 takes place at a fixed moment in time, several years after this. Imagine if it had instead taken place right as the Thargoids returned in 3303, when they were just hyperdicting and refusing to open fire. By the same logic, you could conclude that the Thargoids were a strictly pacifistic race maybe not even capable of fighting, and it'd be wrong for the same reasons 1984 doesn't demonstrate the Thargoids shot first - even if that's the first experience players had of them.

 

[Planewalker]

Spoiler

View attachment 385832

Is that after taranis, or something else?
-you can dm me if you don't want to spoil it here because i have another thing i need verification on.

 

[angusmadmac1]

"As the news spread, leaked Federal intelligence reports indicated that the Thargoid attacks were likely provoked by human hostility; colonists in the Veliaze system, a location no longer present in cartographic records, had apparently come into contact with a Thargoid deputation and assaulted it out of ignorance shortly before the attacks began." And so it began ?

 

[CMDR ROGER]

In lore, the conflict already underway at the time of 1984 Elite's playable section began in Veliaze. FFE's journals were very clear that this conflict was started by humans, and while we can't say for sure how much of this is canon to Dangerous, it seems likely that the broad themes remain the same since Dangerous references FFE's material on this (through this GalNet, and a tourist beacon that directly names the journal articles from FFE). ~quote~

Of course, the part you quoted sounds fairly reasonable if the Thargoids have previously spend their free time mucking around in witchspace waiting to ambush unsuspecting pilots.

Regardless of what is playable and what isn't, earlier reports of mid-witchspace malfunctions would further indicate the Thargoids fired first (or, if you want to be charitable, scanned them and left the innocents on-board to die, which is probably considered a war crime).

 

[Screemonster]

I don't know if we ever had a real choice (because that's an illusion), but there was this point where the community decided to support the obvious moustache-twirling villain because he had the better shiny toys....

We supported it because it was obviously going to be a disaster and, dropping the roleplay, disasters make for more interesting stories.

 

[Jack Winter]

So let's discuss their territory then, since that's where the goalpost is now. I don't recall humans ever building things on top of meta-alloy farms, and systems are so big it literally takes causality itself hours or days to move between planets and other stars (hence needing to work around relativity). So either humans are building their things over MA farms, or Thargoids are tetchy and looking for excuses to shoot that'll result in some humans being sympathetic, and so will kill humans over outposts coming within entire light seconds of their silly unsheltered farms.

Do you know for a fact that they aren't breeding grounds and that what we call meta alloys are actually thargoid embryos?

I mean we just don't know what's going on, but we're also apparently nicking their stuff to use as construction materials.

 

[Firehawk894]

There will never be peace when humanity is involved ." Panem et circenses" . Along with humanity winning against a technological superior older race because thats what we do . Like an old b movie ... The hero always wins

Yeah... Humanity somehow curbstomping a civilisation possibly millennia older than our own, who have mastered hyperspace travel to a degree that it's second nature to them and possess self-repairing/healing bio-mechanical ships... because we unlocked some magic space nanomachines

 

[Firehawk894]

Indeed it is.

"The Thargoids are peaceful, you just gotta give them a chance"

"They drew first blood in the 3100s"

"That doesn't count!"

I'm just saying, the virus and the Proteus wave were justified and not unprovoked.

So because the thargoids did something hundreds of years ago, humanity is allowed to make the decision to try and completely genocide their entire race out of existence twice?

 

[Greasetrap42]

And to clarify on my remark, I see the inconvenient discussion of Thargoids shooting first has led to the conversation being about territory instead I.E. the goalpost has moved.

The argument "Thargoids shot first" is not verifiable and also ridiculous and irrelevant considering the time span involved and then the degree to which Humans escalated aggression within Thargoid territory. Thousands of cmdrs were encouraged (paid, and given rank) to hunt Thargoids in their own territory.

As Humans learned little bits more about the situation... rather than backing off they escalated aggression more. A lot more. Until finally the Thargoids reacted.

Humans are most definitely the aggressor. It is pretty obvious FDev decided to make the game story morally dubious.

 

[Firehawk894]

Yet there’s also people who say humans are the ones who shot a Thargoid ship that was merely observing them first.

So who’s right?

A lot of Elite history got Ret-Conned by the Devs, but speaking strictly to this game only, Thargoids were entirely peaceful at first (the hyperdiction cutscenes) then as soon as the option was given, most of the community desperately tried to get a weapon that would kill them

 

[Firehawk894]

I am replying to the exact part of your comment I intended to reply to


And to clarify on my remark, I see the inconvenient discussion of Thargoids shooting first has led to the conversation being about territory instead I.E. the goalpost has moved.

So let's discuss their territory then, since that's where the goalpost is now. I don't recall humans ever building things on top of meta-alloy farms, and systems are so big it literally takes causality itself hours or days to move between planets and other stars (hence needing to work around relativity). So either humans are building their things over MA farms, or Thargoids are tetchy and looking for excuses to shoot that'll result in some humans being sympathetic, and so will kill humans over outposts coming within entire light seconds of their silly unsheltered farms.

I don't understand your meaning here? Humanity sent out probes/scouts into systems, then shortly after they found Meta Alloy barnacles in those systems, all rushed there to build outposts and stations as quickly as possible to plunder this magical new resource (MA's)

There are more than a few systems where Barnacle sites have military capital ships orbiting them to swat you away if you try to take some

 

[Firehawk894]

Of course, the part you quoted sounds fairly reasonable if the Thargoids have previously spend their free time mucking around in witchspace waiting to ambush unsuspecting pilots.

Regardless of what is playable and what isn't, earlier reports of mid-witchspace malfunctions would further indicate the Thargoids fired first (or, if you want to be charitable, scanned them and left the innocents on-board to die, which is probably considered a war crime).

You can't just say "people's ships malfunctioned in witchspace" and claim "That MUST mean that the thargoids either hyperdicted and killed them or hyperdicted them and left them to die"

Are you aware what hyperspace travel is in the ED universe? You are literally punching a hole into a different dimension to travel through to reach your destination. It's honestly a miracle that there isn't a chance of losing your ship and entire save game when jumping through witchspace.

Outside of gameplay, pieces of the ship would malfunction all the time without maintenance and care. Does your car suddenly breaking down mean that someone somewhere has declared an act of war against you personally?

 

[CMDR ROGER]

Do you know for a fact that they aren't breeding grounds and that what we call meta alloys are actually thargoid embryos?

Because it's a well known fact that an embryo will die if it grows within 12,000km of another human being?

So because the thargoids did something hundreds of years ago, humanity is allowed to make the decision to try and completely genocide their entire race out of existence twice?

Extreme understatement.

I don't understand your meaning here? Humanity sent out probes/scouts into systems, then shortly after they found Meta Alloy barnacles in those systems, all rushed there to build outposts and stations as quickly as possible to plunder this magical new resource (MA's)

So because the humans vandalized a few parks, thargoids are allowed to make the decision to murder humans?

You can't just say "people's ships malfunctioned in witchspace" and claim "That MUST mean that the thargoids either hyperdicted and killed them or hyperdicted them and left them to die"

I can because a misjump tends to be a bit more peaceful than a full-on hyperdiction.

Are you aware what hyperspace travel is in the ED universe? You are literally punching a hole into a different dimension to travel through to reach your destination. It's honestly a miracle that there isn't a chance of losing your ship and entire save game when jumping through witchspace.

Well I guess it's a miracle just how safe witchspace travel is... outside of alien intervention

Outside of gameplay, pieces of the ship would malfunction all the time without maintenance and care. Does your car suddenly breaking down mean that someone somewhere has declared an act of war against you personally?

If my engine stops working, I find a rather neat looking hole in the tank and another car promptly shows up bearing strange looking tools on the front, I'd say anyone has the right to run or fight in that situation. If every single time this happens you still think "my car simply broke down", well I must say you trust those strangers who keep sabotaging your car a great deal.

 

[Greasetrap42]

So because the thargoids did something hundreds of years ago, humanity is allowed to make the decision to try and completely genocide their entire race out of existence twice?

Things we know:

• Thargoids have been around +1 million years.
• Thargoids have had hyperspace travel for a very long time. Probably +1 million years.
• Thargoids have the ability to know where every Ammonia Gas Giant is in the galaxy, and send a probe there. 100%. This shows their interest and knowledge of the galaxy is extensive.
• Humans found Thargoids pretty fast using hyperdrive (before FSD). Thargoids could easily have found Humans while we were still making cave paintings. Or lighting up the dark side of our planet with electricity and sending out primitive space probes..

It is reasonable to assume if Thargoids desired neighboring sentient life destroyed they had ample opportunity. It appears it was not a priority.

 

[CMDR ROGER]

Things we know:

• Thargoids have been around +1 million years.
• Thargoids have had hyperspace travel for a very long time. Probably +1 million years.
• Thargoids have the ability to know where every Ammonia Gas Giant is in the galaxy, and send a probe there. 100%. This shows their interest and knowledge of the galaxy is extensive.
• Humans found Thargoids pretty fast using hyperdrive (before FSD). Thargoids could easily have found Humans while we were still making cave paintings. Or lighting up the dark side of our planet with electricity and sending out primitive space probes..

It is reasonable to assume if Thargoids desired neighboring sentient life destroyed they had ample opportunity. It appears it was not a priority.

Or they had bigger fish to fry I.E. the Guardians. Just saying "we were not a priority to the Thargoids" only instills as much confidence as "one particular group of primitive ants on the sidewalk were not a priority to the psychotic magnifying glass kid".

 

[Greasetrap42]

Or they had bigger fish to fry I.E. the Guardians. Just saying "we were not a priority to the Thargoids" only instills as much confidence as "one particular group of primitive ants on the sidewalk were not a priority to the psychotic magnifying glass kid".

The war with Guardians was a 1-2 million years ago. That gives them some time to notice the only other sentient life in the galaxy.

The obvious point I'm making is if the Thargoids wanted to destroy humans they had ample opportunity. But they didn't.

 

[Kira Goto]

Humanity somehow curbstomping a civilisation possibly millennia older than our own,

Millenia? Millions, more like. Thargoid technology was at this level it is at currently, already at least million years ago, during their conflict with the Guardians. Hard for us to say if it advanced any more since but there’s a chance the Hydra didn’t exist back then or was not used until the conflict ended(Guardian sites ask for tissue samples of all but the Hydra for their logs).

Frankly, I think they are not fully committing precisely because we’re not their actual focus. And whatever it is seems to be worth sacrificing a Titan for to them.

Or they had bigger fish to fry I.E. the Guardians.

That was a million years ago from here, and while I’m not sure where in human history this was exactly, they’ve had plenty of time to observe humans on their (our) home planet if they found it, and so desired.

What happened to Taranis is still wrong. I can only hope that it won’t backfire on us horribly. My expectation… is the contrary, in that it will. I’m already convinced that whatever is left at the center there, it is not dead.

The question is, what are we going to find. And I’m not sure the answer will be a good one.

 

[galahad2069]

completely genocide their entire race out of existence twice?

Yeah, we turned them into a newt, but
they got better.