Open-Only in PP2.0?

[Felix DiCestria]

 

[SergMx]

Are you, perchance, practicing in the school of the Marquis de Sade?

As far as I understood him to mean pleasure for himself at the expense of others' pain.

Those who defend this topic are trying to influence others.
Those who destroy this thread just want to be left alone.

 

[Wily Rites]

As far as I understood him to mean pleasure for himself at the expense of others' pain.

Those who defend this topic are trying to influence others.
Those who destroy this thread just want to be left alone.

Oh you respond after I added a bit about being a 'libertine' rebel
I love this microcosm that is the on line simulated world of elite, it does such a great job in reflecting the macrocosm. And at the scale of the entire milky way, that is just awesome!

 

[Jockey79]

The aggressor is then banned from Mobius . The rules are really simple NO PVP at all .
There have been infiltrators every once in a while but it gets stamped on quickly . Hence the need for checks .

It still doesn't change the fact unwanted PvP still happens in Private Groups.
So much so Frontier had to openly say people doing it would be banned from the game - that's how much of an issue it became.
This means unless people do PP in Solo mode, they are still at risk of unwanted PvP, even in the fabled Mobius Group.

Sandro literally said in that video that allowing consensual PvP was the most important part of powerplay. Or do I need to post a full transcript for the viewers at home?

The video was posted (

Source: https://youtu.be/zoTnEZng-V8?t=2307
) and now you're making up what was said.
He never said "most important part" at all.

*it gives people a reason to shoot each other" is the exact wording.

Locking it into a mode where even large groups of NPCs can't bother you makes having territory (and powers, honestly) pointless. It devolves into an endless cargo run CG where the only opposition is abstracted away from the flying bits (what ED is about) and into a bar chart.

NPC's can bother you in any mode, only players cannot bother you in Solo. (players can still bother you in PG's)
So this comment is an outright fabrication.

The problem is that the three modes are different, and as such should have that taken into account. If modes are to be 'equally valid choices' then you have to have a valid reason for being in Open for a feature about explicit rival groups- when you are fighting other commanders it is more often than not more difficult than an NPC.

For example, in Powerplay PG IMO is too easy to rack up wing merits given you don't have enemy players and that its potentially four top end ships being flown- IMO PG should halve the extra merits and have the full x4 in open, given what you could face.

The only difference in the 3 modes is the ability to see other players. All content and the game itself is the same.

 

[Wily Rites]

Why is that the folks that seek to dominate others and strive for power, can never understand that they are nought but a boisterous minority, and that other folk are simply not the same as them. More importantly ~ that they resemble a blight upon humanity more so than being in any way superior, or a superiority.

But then that is the way of nature, try telling a cancer cell to stop deforming its neighbours, you will meet with similar resistance.
I hope that this is not taken as an insult, it is not intended to be one. Cancer to my mind is the driving force of evolution at work and harnessing it will likely bring about massive boons for the health of our future generations.

 

[Darkfyre99]

The best way to meet is to add your enemy as a friend

I know you’re joking, but there’s a lot of truth to that statement. As I understand it, a lot of PvPers have the opposition on their friends list, for exactly that reason.

 

[angusmadmac1]

Also you can tell where they are ? If your friends .

 

[Rubbernuke]

NPC's can bother you in any mode, only players cannot bother you in Solo. (players can still bother you in PG's)
So this comment is an outright fabrication.

PP NPCs could indeed bother you in 2015. Its 2024 now, with player v 2015 level ships. Its why I keep on saying NPCs need to be far more capable and credible.

In PP PGs where hyper focused groups rack up merits it leads to AFK exploits, something not possible in Open where even one enemy pledge could end it. Take Darracks comment from a while back -

Now days im always in mobius with 2 or 3 mates just casually hauling and having fun.

How exactly, in a group that forbids PvP, in a mode that allows you to choose who you fly with, can you be randomly and routinely bothered?

The only difference in the 3 modes is the ability to see other players. All content and the game itself is the same.

That and wing merits, which we are talking about and the relative value between PG and Open.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If everyone enjoyed PvP then I'd agree, however the fact that PvP is an optional extra in this game as it is not a required part of any in-game feature means that there's no need for any player who buys the game to even tolerate PvP much less engage in it.

... and, as mentioned above, Wing multipliers for Powerplay should be removed entirely as they compound the effect of risk/difficulty reduction by flying in a Wing.

And, like I'm arguing here is that I'm arguing from a position of V2 keeping all three modes, just making it so there is a distinction between them and reasons for using them all.

So, if you don't like PvP you don't have to do it, but, you get less back because you've chosen to enter a mode that removes it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I have my doubts that blocking would be changed just because of Powerplay, noting that it was introduced to the game before launch at Frontier's behest, i.e. without it being asked for by players, and has only been strengthened and made easier to use as Frontier gain more experience of player behaviour in their multi-player game.

Blocking conceptually is silly for a feature thats double gated (you choose open, you choose Powerplay). Open warns you in the button, Powerplay is you v ten other groups. Its also silly because the very worst is being blown up, in feature where direct action is possible.

If players could only play in one game mode, I'd agree - however the choice of each player at the start of each game session is which mode to play in - so all players have a stake in how Open works.

Thats silly too, given that you need reasons for playing a feature about competitive conflict with others in a mode that potentially has the most opponents. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Wily Rites]

I know you’re joking, but there’s a lot of truth to that statement. As I understand it, a lot of PvPers have the opposition on their friends list, for exactly that reason.

If you'll agree to swap PvPers for warriors here, I'll be in complete agreement with you. To view the in channel comms as a weapon is something that you would need to be quite anti social to do.

I'm an aspiring PvPer, and really do not want to use the online player list as a way to bully unsuspecting friendly folk.

 

[Jockey79]

Right, I'm doing this as a separate post and not an answer to anyone because the point is open to all to comment on;

A few years ago my friends and I became curious regarding what Frontier kept calling "island instancing" when talking about Open Mode (and PG's).
So, 3 of us did some testing with the friends list and block list. The results were in our minds hilarious. You may not find it so funny.

So under normal conditions, the 3 of us could see/interact with each other perfectly fine.

If 1 of them put the other one on block, I could see both but they could not see or interact with each other (and we tried, shooting in each other's directions, flying at each other and so on). I could interact with both and each could see my shields react to incoming fire/being rammed but couldn't see where it came from.

If I entered into a wing with one of them, the results were the same. If I entered into a wing with both of them, they still couldn't see each other in space, only see each others icon in the wing.

So in short, if PP2.0 were to be mode-locked, how long until you realise people are still flying around without you being able to interact with them?
Because the first week will be traders, casuals and PvP-averse people flying around in cheap ships putting you all on block. Then carrying on as normal.

Now granted, this was a few years ago and there have been patches to the networking system since then. But I've not seen a single patch note saying there was an overhaul to the instancing system. So I think it's safe to assume that if I block you - unless you wing with someone on my friends list (this as far as I recall was the only workaround), I'll never see you, you'll never get to shoot me. And as I'm very selective with my friends list, you won't have the workaround available either.

[And this does not include other "fun ways" to circumvent unwanted interactions]

I think you're banging your heads against a brick wall, because the game was designed and features we added and improved (the block feature had an upgrade a few years ago if you remember), to give the "victims" the choice over being content for griefers, gankers, pirates and pretend PvP'ers. And quite simply, some of us will never agree to be your content.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And, like I'm arguing here is that I'm arguing from a position of V2 keeping all three modes, just making it so there is a distinction between them and reasons for using them all.

So, if you don't like PvP you don't have to do it, but, you get less back because you've chosen to enter a mode that removes it.

As mentioned above, if no player opposition was encountered then no reward factor for player opposition would reasonably be applied - in either of the multi-player game modes.

Basically if Open were to be treated differently due to the increased possibility of player opposition then that would be ill targeted - however if the reward, personal and effect on Power, were to be calculated from first principles, i.e. taking ships, loadouts, numerical advantage, player skill factor, NPC "level", etc. for each side into account, then it would be a more equitable solution and not a simple "Open == moar reward" scenario.

 

[Wily Rites]

Right, I'm doing this as a separate post and not an answer to anyone because the point is open to all to comment on;

A few years ago my friends and I became curious regarding what Frontier kept calling "island instancing" when talking about Open Mode (and PG's).
So, 3 of us did some testing with the friends list and block list. The results were in our minds hilarious. You may not find it so funny.

So under normal conditions, the 3 of us could see/interact with each other perfectly fine.

If 1 of them put the other one on block, I could see both but they could not see or interact with each other (and we tried, shooting in each other's directions, flying at each other and so on). I could interact with both and each could see my shields react to incoming fire/being rammed but couldn't see where it came from.

If I entered into a wing with one of them, the results were the same. If I entered into a wing with both of them, they still couldn't see each other in space, only see each others icon in the wing.

So in short, if PP2.0 were to be mode-locked, how long until you realise people are still flying around without you being able to interact with them?
Because the first week will be traders, casuals and PvP-averse people flying around in cheap ships putting you all on block. Then carrying on as normal.

Now granted, this was a few years ago and there have been patches to the networking system since then. But I've not seen a single patch note saying there was an overhaul to the instancing system. So I think it's safe to assume that if I block you - unless you wing with someone on my friends list (this as far as I recall was the only workaround), I'll never see you, you'll never get to shoot me. And as I'm very selective with my friends list, you won't have the workaround available either.

[And this does not include other "fun ways" to circumvent unwanted interactions]

I think you're banging your heads against a brick wall, because the game was designed and features we added and improved (the block feature had an upgrade a few years ago if you remember), to give the "victims" the choice over being content for griefers, gankers, pirates and pretend PvP'ers. And quite simply, some of us will never agree to be your content.

I've had folk ask me to add them to their hit lists already after absolutely no communication with them, I think quite likely due to my being vocal on line, I was wondering whether my removing them would also removed their ability to track me or not.

I've not removed them, nor have I made any judgment as to their natures as yet, just intrigued to understand how the comms mechanic works and looking forwards to some interaction with them; I am more than a little suspicious though.

 

[Jockey79]

PP NPCs could indeed bother you in 2015. Its 2024 now, with player v 2015 level ships.

That's not the point you made or I answered, stop moving the goal posts.

You said NPC's cannot bother you on Solo, I pointed out they can bother you just as much in Solo as any other mode.

How exactly, in a group that forbids PvP, in a mode that allows you to choose who you fly with, can you be randomly and routinely bothered?

As Robert pointed out, just because it's forbidden in the Mobius Group by the players, doesn't stop unwanted PvP from happening there.
All PG's are still PvP enabled. The only mode other players cannot shoot you is Solo.

And some people like join the Mobius group with dishonest intent. So you still have to be on guard for unwanted PvP

 

[Jockey79]

I've had folk ask me to add them to their hit lists already after absolutely no communication with them, I think quite likely due to my being vocal on line, I was wondering whether my removing them would also removed their ability to track me or not.

I've not removed them, nor have I made any judgment as to their natures as yet, just intrigued to understand how the comms mechanic works and looking forwards to some interaction with them; I am more than a little suspicious though.

Being on someone's friend list;

Firstly, you become a little green marker on their map. So they know exactly where you are when you are in the game.
Secondly, it will prioritise you in the instancing system for them (so they have a better chance of being instanced with you than they would me for example)
Thirdly, if you have a friend of theirs on your block list, being on their friend list can override your block for their friend to see you if they are in a wing together.

Now I'm not saying people will randomly friend you, so months later they can shoot you - but some people joined the Mobius Group and waited over a year before going on a muderhobo spree, then bragged online they did it. So I'd be careful adding people you do not know in real life.

 

[Darkfyre99]

If you'll agree to swap PvPers for warriors here, I'll be in complete agreement with you. To view the in channel comms as a weapon is something that you would need to be quite anti social to do.

I'm an aspiring PvPer, and really do not want to use the online player list as a way to bully unsuspecting friendly folk.

That’s kind of leaning into the “No True Scotsman” trope. My point was, PvPers are in open looking for fun PvP. If you find someone willing to go head to head against you spontaneously, you’ll want to add them to your friends list to make it more likely you’ll encounter them again in the future… especially given the awful nature of this game’s instancing.

Well, awful if you looking for fun spontaneous PvP battles.

As I understand it, the PowerPlay PvP community is a rather tight knit one. Everyone knows everyone else, and everyone is in each other’s friends list. This is why they seem to have a skewed view of the relative “dangers” of Open. It also explains why every PowerPlay group proudly claims that they bravely do their activities in Open, while every other group cowardly does their activities in Solo/PG.

Unless you’re at one of the extremely rare opposed expansions, the odds are high that you won’t encounter anybody. Too many systems, too many time zones, and too few players. And this is PowerPlay version One. PowerPlay version Two spreads all those activities, which used to be confined to control systems, across the systems they used to control. The new fortress mega ships have the potential to be PvP chokepoints, but I suspect that when I visit an enemy’s during my normal play window, which is outside local prime time, it’ll be deserted.

Speaking personally, I don’t want players to be bribed into playing in Open. It attracts players who are not fun to play with, for a variety of reasons. The reward for me playing in Open is that players provide a different (but not necessarily harder) challenge vs NPCs, and thus I have more fun. Fun should always trump efficiency as far as I’m concerned, and I’d prefer to play with like minded people. I’ve played similar games where all that mattered was efficiency, and they are not fun.

 

[Rubbernuke]

As mentioned above, if no player opposition was encountered then no reward factor for player opposition would reasonably be applied - in either of the multi-player game modes.

Basically if Open were to be treated differently due to the increased possibility of player opposition then that would be ill targeted - however if the reward, personal and effect on Power, were to be calculated from first principles, i.e. taking ships, loadouts, numerical advantage, player skill factor, NPC "level", etc. for each side into account, then it would be a more equitable solution and not a simple "Open == moar reward" scenario.

Well in Open by default it favours people who haul by that logic then, and not the attacker since the bonus for the former is on delivery, while the latter is on destruction.

This is in addition to everything in PG and Solo NPC wise.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well in Open by default it favours people who haul by that logic then, and not the attacker since the bonus for the former is on delivery, while the latter is on destruction.

This is in addition to everything in PG and Solo NPC wise.

Either make the reward risk/difficulty based or don't.

 

[Wily Rites]

That’s kind of leaning into the “No True Scotsman” trope. My point was, PvPers are in open looking for fun PvP. If you find someone willing to go head to head against you spontaneously, you’ll want to add them to your friends list to make it more likely you’ll encounter them again in the future… especially given the awful nature of this game’s instancing.

Well, awful if you looking for fun spontaneous PvP battles.

As I understand it, the PowerPlay PvP community is a rather tight knit one. Everyone knows everyone else, and everyone is in each other’s friends list. This is why they seem to have a skewed view of the relative “dangers” of Open. It also explains why every PowerPlay group proudly claims that they proudly claim they bravely do their activities in Open, while other group cowardly does their activities in Solo/PG.

Unless you’re at one of the extremely rare opposed expansions, the odds are high that you won’t encounter anybody. Too many systems, too many time zones, and too few players. And this is PowerPlay version One. PowerPlay version Two spreads all those activities, which used to be confined to control systems, across the systems they used to control. The new fortress mega ships have the potential to be PvP chokepoints, but I suspect that when I visit an enemy’s during my normal play window, which is outside local prime time, it’ll be deserted.

Speaking personally, I don’t want players to be bribed into playing in Open. It attracts players who are not fun to play with, for a variety of reasons. The reward for me playing in Open is that players provide a different (but not necessarily harder) challenge vs NPCs, and thus I have more fun. Fun should always trump efficiency as far as I’m concerned, and I’d prefer to play with like minded people. I’ve played similar games where all that mattered was efficiency, and they are not fun.

Cool, inspires hope for the game play once in the PvP community, the passage in, is not well sculpted right now though. The open world is, I think, a work in progress, I'm certainly confident that it something that can become much more than it currently is.