[POLL] PvE, PvP, PvAll - What is the playstyle you want in ED?

[kumoban]

I'm not sure what the connection between the market and PvE/PvP is - can you explain?

Traders who don't have to risk being killed by other players will predictably have a much easier time trading which makes it uncompetitive for a PvPer to trade. Thus, all trading will be done by PvE players. This makes the entire profession of Piracy pointless, because all the shiny goods will be carried by ships that are invulnerable.

Players don't want to PvP just to blow you up, they actually want your stuff to sell. Without goods to sell, Piracy is economically nonviable, because they wouldn't be able to afford to replace the many ships they will inevitably lose in their line of work.

 

[DigitalDuck]

Traders who don't have to risk being killed by other players will predictably have a much easier time trading which makes it uncompetitive for a PvPer to trade. Thus, all trading will be done by PvE players. This makes the entire profession of Piracy pointless, because all the shiny goods will be carried by ships that are invulnerable.

1. So, you start off, and choose to play PvP. What are you planning on doing with a Sidewinder and 100 credits? Because the way I see it, trading's really your only option at the start.

2. NPC ships carry stuff too.

3. Why does competition keep getting brought up, as if that's the goal of everything? I know I'm playing this game because I think it'll be fun. I'll probably play PvP as opposed to PvE because I'll find it more fun. If/when I'm unable to go anywhere in PvP due to high idiot population and it stops being fun, I'll switch to PvE in order for it to remain fun. Trading will be done in PvP because some players will find that more fun.

And if very few people find trading in PvP fun, while enjoying trading in PvE, it's a good indication that either griefers or PC pirates are far too populous in the PvP universe; naturally their population will diminish also, which will in turn make trading more promising in the PvP universe, etc. etc.

Foxes and chickens.

 

[Ende]

1. So, you start off, and choose to play PvP. What are you planning on doing with a Sidewinder and 100 credits? Because the way I see it, trading's really your only option at the start.

2. NPC ships carry stuff too.

3. Why does competition keep getting brought up, as if that's the goal of everything? I know I'm playing this game because I think it'll be fun. I'll probably play PvP as opposed to PvE because I'll find it more fun. If/when I'm unable to go anywhere in PvP due to high idiot population and it stops being fun, I'll switch to PvE in order for it to remain fun. Trading will be done in PvP because some players will find that more fun.

And if very few people find trading in PvP fun, while enjoying trading in PvE, it's a good indication that either griefers or PC pirates are far too populous in the PvP universe; naturally their population will diminish also, which will in turn make trading more promising in the PvP universe, etc. etc.

Foxes and chickens.

And it is right here that your total misconception over pvpers is shown loud and clear.

You are under the illusion that when a pvper has set to pvp that all he will do is go around killing other players... well, heres the big fact... THEY WONT.

the vast majority of players who set PvP on just wanna play Elite exactly the same as the traditional Elite games but want the risk of actually being able to defend or attack other players. They will be trading to amass credits in exactly the same way as the players who have set PvE.

The only difference is that PvPers trading runs alot more risk when they travel through the universe, simply because they can be attacked by other players whereas the PvEers cant.

Basically most players who set PvP to on simply want a more realistic universe to play in.

Dont believe the blinkered view posted up by some on here who beleive passionately that everyone with a pvp setting just wants to go round ganking and griefing...

 

[jabokai]

Let me ask a question - griefing and ganking aside (let's just say that, magically, it does not exist) - do you think it's then still reasonable for people to want to play PvE only? Like, they just want to fight against AI - whether they find that easier/more predictable, or whether they simply don't like being beaten by a human, it doesn't matter... simply - do you think that's an okay choice to want that, but to also want the non-combat forms of human/human interaction?

 

[Ende]

Let me ask a question - griefing and ganking aside (let's just say that, magically, it does not exist) - do you think it's then still reasonable for people to want to play PvE only? Like, they just want to fight against AI - whether they find that easier/more predictable, or whether they simply don't like being beaten by a human, it doesn't matter... simply - do you think that's an okay choice to want that, but to also want the non-combat forms of human/human interaction?

I think u will find most people who want PvP settings just wanna play in a realistic universe...

If i accidently ram into a ship i want it to register and do real damage. If i accidentally let off my weapons and hit another player i want real issues to arise. If i wanna hit a guy who disrespected me in the bar then i also wanna be able to track him and jump him later...

Basically speaking i foresee much more immersion in a more realistic universe and imo those can only be achieved with full pvp settings set to on

 

[jabokai]

I think u will find most people who want PvP settings just wanna play in a realistic universe...

If i accidently ram into a ship i want it to register and do real damage. If i accidentally let off my weapons and hit another player i want real issues to arise. If i wanna hit a guy who disrespected me in the bar then i also wanna be able to track him and jump him later...

Basically speaking i foresee much more immersion in a more realistic universe and imo those can only be achieved with full pvp settings set to on

Ha ha, are you a politician, you completely avoided the question, well done! For what it's worth I generally agree and choose the same.

But are you saying you don't think it's an okay choice? For people to only want to play AGAINST AI but WITH other humans? I'm not asking whether you think the facility should exist in the game here, just if you think that the choice is valid or not.

 

[Ende]

But are you saying you don't think it's an okay choice? For people to only want to play AGAINST AI but WITH other humans? I'm not asking whether you think the facility should exist in the game here, just if you think that the choice is valid or not.

I think people who want PvE ony should be seperated from the guys with ful PvP settings... ive said this in almost every one of my posts. Its not cos i dont want those people near me, its cos theyre playing the game with less risk. And that means its not fair for those players to get the same rewards as players with PvP set to on.

Lets face it, theres a massive possibility of griefing BY players set to PVE. The chat channels for a systme could be abused by PVE players. They just shout their mouth off abuse and particular PvP players with the knowledge they cannot be hit. I forsee far more griefing by PVE players than PVP tbh.

Players with PvP set to on will have to take alot more care with their reputation.

With these two important points in mind... we MUST seperate PvE settings from the guys with all limitations off.

 

[jabokai]

I think people who want PvE ony should be seperated from the guys with ful PvP settings... ive said this in almost every one of my posts. Its not cos i dont want those people near me, its cos theyre playing the game with less risk. And that means its not fair for those players to get the same rewards as players with PvP set to on.

Lets face it, theres a massive possibility of griefing BY players set to PVE. The chat channels for a systme could be abused by PVE players. They just shout their mouth off abuse and particular PvP players with the knowledge they cannot be hit. I forsee far more griefing by PVE players than PVP tbh.

Players with PvP set to on will have to take alot more care with their reputation.

With these two important points in mind... we MUST seperate PvE settings from the guys with all limitations off.

Ha ha, after all that we actually find that we agree! It's what everyone on the PvE side has been suggesting and asking for in this debate - to have their own separate shard/group! :smilie:

 

[DigitalDuck]

And it is right here that your total misconception over pvpers is shown loud and clear.

You are under the illusion that when a pvper has set to pvp that all he will do is go around killing other players... well, heres the big fact... THEY WONT.

You're right. Wait, no.

The number of times I've already said I don't believe every PvPer just goes around killing other players... I've even said SEVERAL TIMES I'll probably be playing PvP myself! Are you saying that I believe I'm a griefer?

Don't be completely ridiculous.

Dont believe the blinkered view posted up by some on here who beleive passionately that everyone with a pvp setting just wants to go round ganking and griefing...

Nobody believes that. Nobody's posted that. Are you even reading the same thread I am?

Here's a big fact for you, though: there will be SOME griefers.

Don't believe the blinkered view posted up by some on here who believe passionately that the PvP universe will be perfect and absolutely everyone will behave exactly as they should and never deliberately harass another player.

It will happen. And it will drive some people away.


Let me use a completely out-there example, because I love my out-there examples:

Ever played a racing game online? You might think, "Nobody griefs in a racing game! Is that even possible? What do they get out of it?"

And yet, the number of times someone will just pull in front of you and deliberately stop, and spend the rest of the race preventing you from going anywhere at more than 5mph, completely ruining their own race just to ruin yours...

Lots of games try lots of prevention methods. "Oh, well if you're going slower than 30mph, you can't collide with other cars." Great! Seems rather arbitrary, and kinda ruins the realism angle you were going for, but it solves the problem, right? No, because now they just stop you from going anywhere at more than 30mph.

You can draw that line wherever you like; if it's slower than the top speeds you might get in a race, it'll be abused. If it's faster, then you spend the entire race with no collisions between cars at all. That latter option is effectively equivalent to PvE, except forced! Which is why most online racers just give you the straight option to turn car collisions ON/OFF (draw parallels to PvP/PvE choice).

Now, I'm not saying everyone racing just wants to stop everyone else from racing, because... well, that wouldn't even be able to sustain itself, would it? Nor would it make sense. But there are some people like that out there, and they ruin the game for others.

Basically speaking i foresee much more immersion in a more realistic universe and imo those can only be achieved with full pvp settings set to on

Keyword being "imo".

In my opinion full PvP would be more immersive too. But should it get to the point where I'm just repeatedly being killed, then it rapidly becomes less fun. At least for me.

I think people who want PvE ony should be seperated from the guys with ful PvP settings... ive said this in almost every one of my posts. Its not cos i dont want those people near me, its cos theyre playing the game with less risk. And that means its not fair for those players to get the same rewards as players with PvP set to on.

And everyone else is saying the first part too. As has been pointed out to you many times.

As for rewards, why is it not fair? Is it not fair for someone playing the game on EASY to get the same rewards as someone playing the game on HARD? Aren't most people playing games for FUN, so they'll pick the difficulty that gives them the most FUN? As I said before, they paid for the game too, why should they be locked out of content?

Lets face it, theres a massive possibility of griefing BY players set to PVE. The chat channels for a systme could be abused by PVE players. They just shout their mouth off abuse and particular PvP players with the knowledge they cannot be hit. I forsee far more griefing by PVE players than PVP tbh.

1. The same is true with PvP - players can still be abusive.

2. Players can be muted.

 

[jabokai]

As for rewards, why is it not fair? Is it not fair for someone playing the game on EASY to get the same rewards as someone playing the game on HARD? Aren't most people playing games for FUN, so they'll pick the difficulty that gives them the most FUN? As I said before, they paid for the game too, why should they be locked out of content.

I think what he means there is when everyone is in the same space and PvE is a flag/toggle, rather than when PvE is a separate universe. And that is a fair point IF the game used a flag system (which is seriously bad and I hope it would not). If PvE and PvP were completely separate then it matters not.

 

[DigitalDuck]

I think what he means there is when everyone is in the same space and PvE is a flag/toggle, rather than when PvE is a separate universe. And that is a fair point IF the game used a flag system (which is seriously bad and I hope it would not). If PvE and PvP were completely separate then it matters not.

Ah, fair enough then. Yeah, different rules in the same space could leave some considerable unfairness, but that's not what anyone here wants.

Misunderstood that part, sorry.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Things seem to be heating up again, after my request for users to consider their comments before posting.

Again, there's been some great discussions on here and good points have been made. but the sniping comments need to stop now.


This is for everyone's attention.

Ashley has updated the Rules of the forum. It can be found

HERE

Please take a moment to read it

Thanks all, and continue the discussion in the true spirit of the forum.

 

[Ende]

In my opinion full PvP would be more immersive too. But should it get to the point where I'm just repeatedly being killed, then it rapidly becomes less fun. At least for me.

And ive said a hundred times in this thread... lets not even discuss this issue until we play beta, its pointless.

We have no clue to how griefing will surface in ED, we all agree it will happen, it always does. Lets give beta a thorough thrashing and close all the griefing points at that stage.

Nobody like griefers or gankers to please stop insinuating that everyone who wants to PvP is somehow agreeing with griefing.

As for rewards, why is it not fair? Is it not fair for someone playing the game on EASY to get the same rewards as someone playing the game on HARD? Aren't most people playing games for FUN, so they'll pick the difficulty that gives them the most FUN? As I said before, they paid for the game too, why should they be locked out of content?

U dont understand?

Its simple.

And ive explained it many times... but ill say it to u AGAIN.

A guy with pvp set on must buy his goods in system A and travel to system B to sell it. he runs the risk of being hijacked by NPCs and also other players.

A guy with PvE settings to off does exactly the same trade route with the same goods and only runs the risk of being killed by NPCs.

The difference is very clear, the PvP player RUNS MORE RISK.

The profit at the end of the trade is exactly the same, so why should the PvE player get the same when he runs less risk?

Therefore seperation is the ONLY solution.

PS where did i say theyre locked out of content? I just said theyre seperated from players with PvP settings.

1. The same is true with PvP - players can still be abusive.

I refer u to my other point directly after that line which stated PvPers will have to be much more careful about their ingame reputation. Therefore i dont see so many PvPers being nasty and rude for kicks. Theyll get destroyed by the peopple they upset.

And funnily enough that the realistic universe im looking for.

 

[DigitalDuck]

And ive said a hundred times in this thread... lets not even discuss this issue until we play beta, its pointless.

We have no clue to how griefing will surface in ED, we all agree it will happen, it always does. Lets give beta a thorough thrashing and close all the griefing points at that stage.

You can't close all of the griefing points unless you completely stop players from interacting with other players. All it'll do is delay the discussion until it's harder to do anything about it.

Nobody like griefers or gankers to please stop insinuating that everyone who wants to PvP is somehow agreeing with griefing.

I'm not insinuating that everyone who wants to PvP is somehow agreeing with griefing, least of all because I will be playing PvP!

In fact, I've said one of those two things:

ONE
TWO
THREE
FOUR
FIVE
SIX
SEVEN
EIGHT

And including this post, NINE times now! Seriously!

The difference is very clear, the PvP player RUNS MORE RISK.

If I'm playing blindfold I should be earning money every second I don't crash into something. After all, it's much riskier!

The profit at the end of the trade is exactly the same, so why should the sighted player get the same when he runs less risk?

Allow me to bring back my previous post:

I'm tempted to bring out my paper here, but...

Risk vs. reward is something that's always been "missing" from MMOs, simply because it's something that doesn't work in multiplayer.

It works on an individual level, where riskier tasks give greater rewards, but applying it to multiplayer situations just magnifies any differences in skill level. Someone who's slightly better at the game will consistently get better rewards, so will have a significant advantage, which is precisely the opposite of what you want to do in order to maximise enjoyment in the game.

Alternatively, if you're going to apply risk vs. reward to a multiplayer scenario, you have to take each players' skill level into account too - for someone who's useless at combat, attacking someone is MUCH riskier than it is for someone who's good at combat, so clearly it should yield much higher rewards.

Therefore seperation is the ONLY solution.

Nearly everyone is agreed on this. They always have been. Really. I don't know where you keep getting the idea that they should be mixed.

PS where did i say theyre locked out of content? I just said theyre seperated from players with PvP settings.

You said they shouldn't get the rewards the PvP players get. Rewards are content.

I refer u to my other point directly after that line which stated PvPers will have to be much more careful about their ingame reputation. Therefore i dont see so many PvPers being nasty and rude for kicks. Theyll get destroyed by the peopple they upset.

And funnily enough that the realistic universe im looking for.

While that's true, destroying someone because you thought they were annoying actually gets you a criminal rating in the game.

Meanwhile the guy who was annoying you just gets sent back to the last station they were at.

Personally I think the guy being nasty and rude actually gets off better in this situation. Unless he had a load of cargo on him.

 

[Ende]

Nearly everyone is agreed on this. They always have been. Really. I don't know where you keep getting the idea that they should be mixed.

Errrm ive been the biggest advocate for seperation... u must be reading someone elses posts cos thats not consistent with what ive been saying.

U actually agreed with me above, Jabokai gets my point and then he explained it again to u, which u apologised that u had misunderstood it.

So why ru going back on your own post of agreement?

Looks like its just for the sake of trolling to me...

 

[DigitalDuck]

Errrm ive been the biggest advocate for seperation... u must be reading someone elses posts cos thats not consistent with what ive been saying.

U actually agreed with me above, Jabokai gets my point and then he explained it again to u, which u apologised that u had misunderstood it.

So why ru going back on your own post of agreement?

Looks like its just for the sake of trolling to me...

?

Erm... same to you?

Everyone here has been for either separating the two, or not letting the PvE universe exist at all.

This has been the case in the whole thread.

Therefore, I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea that anyone suggested the idea of them coexisting.

That's what I'm saying.

Blimey.

 

[Mzr]

?

Erm... same to you?

Everyone here has been for either separating the two, or not letting the PvE universe exist at all.

This has been the case in the whole thread.

Therefore, I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea that anyone suggested the idea of them coexisting.

That's what I'm saying.

Blimey.

better off not having a separate PvE universe exist at all, waste of resources IMHO.

PvPs need those delicious salty carebear tears to power their vessels.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Ok as my request for the sniping has been ignored I'm closing the thread for a few hours so everyone can calm down.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Thread has been re-opened.

Please do not derail the thread again and keep it on the original subject matter in a constructive manner.

Thanks.

 

[Robert Maynard]

better off not having a separate PvE universe exist at all, waste of resources IMHO.

PvPs need those delicious salty carebear tears to power their vessels.

So everyone who does not really want full-on PvP is trapped in a single environment with your choice of rule set?

That doesn't seem very consensual to me....

You seem to assume that every player should be available to be prey to PC pirates (as well, of course as NPC pirates).

Maybe player characters should be allowed to select an option to make their ship appear to others as an NPC vessel - so that those intent on causing trouble for other players (exclusively?) can't tell the difference....

Elite was never multi-player. The game was about trading and surviving in the universe populated by NPCs. How this is re-interpreted for a multi-player version of the game is open to debate, rightly, as it has been here.

Sharding will make it very easy to keep players using different rule sets apart.

As to risk and reward, I really hope that the AI (at its most capable) is able to beat most of the players in the game. On this basis, why should the rewards be different for players using different rule sets?