The Open v Solo v Groups thread

All this talk of whys & wherefores of why we do it is derailing the main Op

Can't very well discuss the OP with someone if I'm not clear on what they're talking about when they make comparisons and analogies.

Best to get a clear answer, if I can, before I waste significantly more text talking past someone because I presume they're saying something they aren't saying.

You guys can discuss the whole "sounds more like a job" topic with each other if you want until the cows come home.

"Sounds more like a job" was your assertion and I don't know what you mean by that. It's not a relevant distinction to me, nor apparently to Riverside, so there doesn't seem to be much to discuss between him and I this topic.

Anyway, I accept that I'm at an impasse and will likely never know why you thought to contrast the two.
 
They kind of tried a GTA type system for ED in the form of Noteriety.

It didn't really bother PvPers but made everything worse for PvEers.

GG FD.
Notoriety is the right system, but it just doesn't take the response far enough and quick enough. Response needs to be nearly immediate and unrelenting once you start. And at a certain level, only player on player action can escalate it. We can even slow down the progression of notoriety for actions against NPCs.
 
Notoriety is the right system, but it just doesn't take the response far enough and quick enough. Response needs to be nearly immediate and unrelenting once you start. And at a certain level, only player on player action can escalate it. We can even slow down the progression of notoriety for actions against NPCs.
Sure, maybe it can be tweaked, but the current implementation sucks.

5 star wanted in GTA you are not even thinking about other players. 10 star noteriety in ED you still have plenty of breathing space.
 
Considering that we are talking about Open in Powerplay... Notoriety doesn't increase with Powerplay interactions (both against Power NPCs and players).

That's FDev telling us that in Powerplay being pledged = implicit approval to PvP.
 
Considering that we are talking about Open in Powerplay... Notoriety doesn't increase with Powerplay interactions (both against Power NPCs and players).

That's FDev telling us that in Powerplay being pledged = implicit approval to PvP.

I don't think notoriety was intended to be a tool against PvP, just crime in lawful space generally.

Also PvP is approved by FDev anyway ;) Only local rules for some private groups (decided by other players not the game or FDev) discourage it.
 
Also PvP is approved by FDev anyway ;) Only local rules for some private groups (decided by other players not the game or FDev) discourage it.
PvP is a core of PP2.0. Everybody will understand it eventually.
But PvP, not pew-pew combat. Are there any NPCs on a Leadership board? No... Are NPCs are gaining merits? No... So: whole PP2.0 is about PvP (People versus People). Just nobody ever promised that abstract one Commander will ever see ALL other Commanders affecting PP2.0, but that part is crazy hard to understand, so lets just forget about it and lets just enjoy ED[O].
 
Considering that we are talking about Open in Powerplay... Notoriety doesn't increase with Powerplay interactions (both against Power NPCs and players).

That's FDev telling us that in Powerplay being pledged = implicit approval to PvP.

I mean it's even explicitly stated in the game now

image.png
 
I don't think notoriety was intended to be a tool against PvP, just crime in lawful space generally.

As I recall at the time, there was a lot of crying about a lack of a decent crime and punishment system, that it was too easy to get away with killing, especially in lawful systems, but as I also recall, a lot of it was aimed at PvPers being able to wander around in high sec systems killing other players with no real consequences.

I felt at the time notoriety was meant to target PvPers doing that, to push them to carrying out their business in lower security systems. I don't really recall any (many?) PvEers saying that crime and punishment needed fixing for PvE stuff.

And then the new system released, which barely bothers PvPers but is a royal pain in the jacksie for PvEers. I basically don't do lawless stuff at all now outside anarchy systems because its simply just an annoyance. Either that, or leave it to the end of the session then log off for the day to allow the notoriety to time out.

I don't know what FD's intention was, but from my perspective it wasn't an improvement.
 
So do you get extra merits for Commanders ??
No . So I disagree with the whole premise of PP2 is PvP . PP2 is filling buckets of merits.
I don't mind you spending hours looking for the enemy ( different instances timezones and even games ) I will carry on in open filling up those buckets and when you lose and say everyone is hiding in PG and solo I will smile and enjoy my gameplay.
You don't have to PvP to PP2. Some may read into it what they want but there is no PvP specific bonus in game.
 
I mean it's even explicitly stated in the game now

image.png
This one sentence is the whole basis of PvP ?? And it only states slowing down commanders running merits ?? So you are meant to slow down a merits based bucket filling competition ??
And you don't get extra ?? For doing that ??
See how people read into that one sentence different meanings? But these are just my own observations.
 
As I recall at the time, there was a lot of crying about a lack of a decent crime and punishment system, that it was too easy to get away with killing, especially in lawful systems, but as I also recall, a lot of it was aimed at PvPers being able to wander around in high sec systems killing other players with no real consequences.

I felt at the time notoriety was meant to target PvPers doing that, to push them to carrying out their business in lower security systems. I don't really recall any (many?) PvEers saying that crime and punishment needed fixing for PvE stuff.

And then the new system released, which barely bothers PvPers but is a royal pain in the jacksie for PvEers. I basically don't do lawless stuff at all now outside anarchy systems because its simply just an annoyance. Either that, or leave it to the end of the session then log off for the day to allow the notoriety to time out.

I don't know what FD's intention was, but from my perspective it wasn't an improvement.

I regularly gain fines & bounties from stuff like base assaults & killing politician missions but rarely do anything that gains me notoriety either, the time taken for notoriety to cool down acts as quite a deterrent to breaking the local laws as you suggest. I've set up some lawless assets around my territory then taken that asset owning local anarchy faction down below 7% influence so they won't lose the assets unless someone deliberately pushes them up to start a war too, because that allows me (and anyone else) to do things that might be against the law somewhere else in that lawless space. Ideally I'd have every asset but the controlling station be owned by the local anarchy but that's pretty hard work & one or two assets are usually as much as I can (be bothered to) do.

Before Notoriety bounties would last a while & I used to use that time to 'lay low' by going exploring so in that respect notoriety is a lesser punishment than what preceded it but still, it punishes breaking the law, not murder of innocents and not PvP unless someone commits a crime by doing it in lawful space. I helped put San Tu back to lawless ages ago (it's since been returned to lawful a couple of times) to help the PvP hub train players without needing to worry about notoriety.

I don't think notoriety or any of the C&P stuff adds much to PvP, it's just consequences for crimes that also captures crimes via PvP.

One of the issues with PvP fights is pre-emptive self defence, where the oppressor has not yet gained a bounty for assault or murder of an innocent (unwanted) player (or NPC). IRL pre-emptive self defence is allowed (self defence is an absolute defence in law & does not require the attacker to strike first eg they could threaten you with a weapon & you disarm them before they actually attack).

Notoriety is intended to be a consequence for breaking the law. That it's also acting as a deterrent to PvP first strikes (and pre-emptive self defence) is a side effect. I'm sure lots of people (possibly including some FDev staff) hoped it would act as a deterrent to ganking but I don't think that was ever an intended primary effect.

TL;DR I agree waiting for notoriety to cool down can be frustrating (it's supposed to be) but gaining it can be fun and avoiding it in the first place even more so ;)
 
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