Opinion: 10 LY range for colonization is ridiculously low.

Desirsar

Desirsar
It seems like everyone is thinking about the balance as a game mechanic rather than who the feature is targeted toward.

Short range :
Casual player can't afford the credit or time investment. Expansion of the bubble is barely noticeable to them, their gameplay is the same.
Large BGS power gets more space to expand into to make their system count Line Go Up.
Coordinated Power Play groups get more space to move into, maybe more tactical decisions.
Explorers want to colonize their five Earthlikes orbiting a gas giant orbiting a neutron star 20kLy out. Since it will take them longer than the reasonable lifetime of the game to reach that, they don't touch colonization.

Medium range :
Casual player can't afford the credit or time investment. Maybe they use some outposts leading out of the bubble to try out exploration for the first time.
Large BGS power gets the same space to expand into to make their system count Line Go Up. They can also use the increased range to wrap around expanding opposing factions and cut off their expansion.
Coordinated Power Play groups get even more space to move into, definitely more tactical decisions.
Explorers can now reasonably reach the far away places they want to go to, but only if they work in groups. Will still be a multiple year commitment, putting off many.

Long range or unlimited :
Casual player can't afford the credit or time investment. They still don't notice the change except on the fringes of the bubble, and get more options for exploration.
Large BGS power gets the same space to expand into to make their system count Line Go Up. More options for connecting systems for expansion, and can directly compete for more valuable systems.
Coordinated Power Play groups get even more space to move into, and can directly compete for more valuable systems.
Explorers will now be fully invested, reaching deep space locations quicker and spending their time creating mini bubbles around interesting discoveries. BGS and Power Play groups may even see some of these and try to build connecting systems to take them over.

If this is for more bubble systems that only the biggest groups are going to hold onto, just wave a magic plot wand. If this is for explorers, the range has to be large enough to be useful in a reasonable amount of time. If this is just to create a money sink, it's not going to be effective in any meaningful way - make new ships or other new features require materials that didn't exist previously, so a new player and someone sitting on hundreds of billions of credits have the same "grind" to unlock it.
 

Ralph Vargr

Ralph Vargr
Rubbernuke said:
Its really making it possible to do it all in one go if you want to though using credits to tempt crazy players. The very furthest you could go has to be expensive and also be open to failure if you can't get there.

80 billion is a bit much, and I'd say too my 50 billion is too high, but say 10 billion is a sum worth gambling on for that- a mad dash to the edge would be an epic marathon that actually is just the start of the process.
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There are trillionaires in this game.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
mtfatboy3006 said:
It's already a let down to fly 20 KLY to deliver a researcher to an unusual celestial body just to scan a tourist beacon populated by unengineered Orcas.
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Ah! You're showing player bias here.

Let's take an unengineered Orca as having around 33 LY range, so 3 jumps per 100 LY. 20k LY in that case is 600 jumps.

It takes roughly 1 min to do a jump from entering a system, so 600 min.

600 min is 10 hours.

Think about how many people are willing to take 10 hour flights just to go spent a week in a distant country for holidays. Or a 10 hour drive to go to a resort somewhere. No think of in-universe here, how many people would be perfectly fine to travel a third of the way across the galaxy to see an awesome stellar sight, probably combined with a buffet and karaoke party.

Sign me up!

You enter the market with your engineered Orca, You can make it in 200 mins. Wow, great, but you charge more. And there's no need for a real ocean cruise environment, because its so quick. Passengers don't get the buffet and the karaoke!

Then what? Then you're in a niche market, but don't be surprised when there's unengineered Orcas 20k LY out. Those captains aren't part of your fancy schmancy Pilot's Federation. No, they are Totally Independent Traders! That's who they are!

Damn players! Think they own the damn game!

Yours sincerely,

In Game NPCs.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Mersozz said:
Good points, gentlemen. I agree it could be sorted out that way; specifically, the idea that the founding faction becomes native.

I will posit the following hypothetical scenario, and would welcome any feedback.
  1. Commander Fancypants decides he wants to colonize a new system. After a great deal of planning, and effort, he establishes his new station in the Candyland system. His small squadron is pledged to the Pearl Clutchers faction, which is a Democracy. His plan is to mine the rich platinium and tritium hotspots and create a bustling commercial system for himself, his squadron, and visiting Commanders.
  2. Commander Dragonlady stumbles across the Candyland system. She is the leader of a squadron pledged to the Screaming Banshees faction, which is an Anarchy. She looks at the resources in the system and feels this is a perfect place to set up her pirate lair. The fact that it is currently occupied by another player fits in perfectly with her preferred style of play - pillaging is her strong suit.
  3. Within the space of a couple weeks, the Screaming Banshee faction engages in a war with the Pearl Clutchers and wins the conflict and takes over control of the main starport.
  4. Months later, visitors are warned to avoid Candyland, which has descended into a hive of scum and villainy.
Given the scenario above, I would have the following questions:
  1. After the Screaming Banshees faction takes over the system, if the system architect creates a new asset in the system, does it belong to the Pearl Clutchers or the Screaming Banshees?
  2. Given that the Screaming Banshees are anarchists, should we assume that the BGS mechanics within the system have now flipped to Anarchy, which is a feature that is different than the original plans of system architect?
  3. If colonization does not allow a system architect to curb the creep of the BGS and/or Power Play, will it cater to all playstyles, or just become an extension of BGS and Power Play 2.0 ?
  4. Will colonized systems attract gankers?
  5. Given the controvesial (broken) state of Crime and Punishment in the game, will system architects have effective policing powers over the systems "they can't lose"?
Given the scenario above, I'm thinking the best way to assure that players can't "lose" systems is if their assets have the same docking privileges as a fleet carrier. Players who take the time and energy to colonize a system and create the assets within them should be also be given the ability to secure them. The game is already coded to give fleet carrier owners that option, and I'm imagining the cost and time involved in colonization will be similar to a fleet carrier, so I think this would make the most sense.

Another option would be to greatly increase the colonization distance for colonizers who wish to do their own thing far away from the tidal forces of BGS and PP2.

Again, any comments on this scenario are welcome, and my thoughts above are just personal opinions.
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I think the way it works is the system architect remains the SA no matter what, even if the primary faction gets taken over. Just the native faction is the one that enters on creation and can never be booted. All others are non-native and therefore can be expelled via BGS mechanics.
 

Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
Agony_Aunt said:
Gadzooks! That sounds like engaging gameplay and likely to generate excitement in the community!
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It would certainly fit the 'gold rush' ethos I think FD want, and potentially make distance great again (or at least a hurdle).

1733305449457.jpeg
 

Riverside

Riverside
Not posted about the new colonisation mechanism before, it is something that interests me as a potential project to work on essentially alone as so many of my other achievements have been over the years.

I think the expansion range is a way to limit how much of the galaxy can be colonised & much like ship jump range over the years it's something that can be increased as time goes on. This far into the game I don't see much benefit to that initial limitation though apart from a lack of confidence in what the playerbase could do that cannot be undone.

But mostly if I am to do it alone or as part of a small player group I think the system I 'create' would be extremely vulnerable to invasion & takeover by any of the well established large expansionist factions which is not my idea of fun at all. Being the architect would be fun, and presumably that could not be taken away from me but I'd have an opinion on what factions should fill the 7 slots (assuming it works this way).

Honestly I think I'd prefer to create a system more like those on the colonia bridge where there were just the native lawful faction & a local anarchy, far enough away that it wouldn't be vulnerable to invasion unless another system within range were colonised (potentially ending up with a mini-bubble like Colonia.

Watching with interest though, in principle 10ly for the initial rush of enthusiasm should limit the damage that cannot be undone then increase it further down the line once the playerbase gets used to the new mechanism.
 

Shir

Shir
Colonization will probably be a balancing act between realism and gaming functionality. Repairing stations is a feat unmanageable by a single individual, so imagine building and stocking one. Having to deliver dozens of full carrier loads to a colony, hundreds of runs...

Frontier will have to find a balance between the hardcore and casual player, at least the casual interested enough to say have a fleet carrier (about 30k of them). Colonization could be 10 times more sparse or even more. But one has to also sell the feature, and grind isn't exactly the era's favorite pastime ;)
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Riverside said:
Not posted about the new colonisation mechanism before, it is something that interests me as a potential project to work on essentially alone as so many of my other achievements have been over the years.

I think the expansion range is a way to limit how much of the galaxy can be colonised & much like ship jump range over the years it's something that can be increased as time goes on. This far into the game I don't see much benefit to that initial limitation though apart from a lack of confidence in what the playerbase could do that cannot be undone.

But mostly if I am to do it alone or as part of a small player group I think the system I 'create' would be extremely vulnerable to invasion & takeover by any of the well established large expansionist factions which is not my idea of fun at all. Being the architect would be fun, and presumably that could not be taken away from me but I'd have an opinion on what factions should fill the 7 slots (assuming it works this way).

Honestly I think I'd prefer to create a system more like those on the colonia bridge where there were just the native lawful faction & a local anarchy, far enough away that it wouldn't be vulnerable to invasion unless another system within range were colonised (potentially ending up with a mini-bubble like Colonia.

Watching with interest though, in principle 10ly for the initial rush of enthusiasm should limit the damage that cannot be undone then increase it further down the line once the playerbase gets used to the new mechanism.
Click to expand...

The problem is, if its not interesting for people at 10 LY, and people don't really engage with it, hoping FD increase the range later, it might result in a CQC or Powerplay situation, where FD let it languish for years, citing a lack of interest from the community. Then in 5 or 10 years they revisit it saying "Hey, we've had this great idea to increase the popularity of colonization. We're going to increase the range to 1000 LY!"
 

CMDR Daiyus

CMDR Daiyus
I think there's a logical reason for starting at 10Ly, although I do expect this to go up during Beta, but not beyond PP2.0/BGS ranges. I have a theory that Cocijo is being placed in the central Bubble to bring Thargoids as a permanent, PvE faction to interact with PP2.0. This would have multiple benefits, including keeping AX combat alive "post-war".

Due to this idea, I also think that the Colonisation expansion distances are being tuned as a balancing act against how fast the Thargoids can expand their territory, giving us two fronts to deal with the bugs; on one side we actively fight them back and keep them hemmed in, on the other, we expand the Bubble away from their space. If we were able to Colonise over massive distances, we'd simply create a new Bubble as far away from the current one as possible.
 

Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
Riverside said:
Not posted about the new colonisation mechanism before, it is something that interests me as a potential project to work on essentially alone as so many of my other achievements have been over the years.

I think the expansion range is a way to limit how much of the galaxy can be colonised & much like ship jump range over the years it's something that can be increased as time goes on. This far into the game I don't see much benefit to that initial limitation though apart from a lack of confidence in what the playerbase could do that cannot be undone.

But mostly if I am to do it alone or as part of a small player group I think the system I 'create' would be extremely vulnerable to invasion & takeover by any of the well established large expansionist factions which is not my idea of fun at all. Being the architect would be fun, and presumably that could not be taken away from me but I'd have an opinion on what factions should fill the 7 slots (assuming it works this way).

Honestly I think I'd prefer to create a system more like those on the colonia bridge where there were just the native lawful faction & a local anarchy, far enough away that it wouldn't be vulnerable to invasion unless another system within range were colonised (potentially ending up with a mini-bubble like Colonia.

Watching with interest though, in principle 10ly for the initial rush of enthusiasm should limit the damage that cannot be undone then increase it further down the line once the playerbase gets used to the new mechanism.
Click to expand...
I think FD need to really understand what really drives players, and what they want. Having a 10Ly limit is great for Powerplay, but its going to pour cold water on explorers who really want to put these things in far flung systems. The latter group is where the excitement is coming from, and so I think the limitation on expansion should come from something other than a set distance.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Rubbernuke said:
I think FD need to really understand what really drives players, and what they want. Having a 10Ly limit is great for Powerplay, but its going to pour cold water on explorers who really want to put these things in far flung systems. The latter group is where the excitement is coming from, and so I think the limitation on expansion should come from something other than a set distance.
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Thing is, with a bigger range, it can be interesting for both. For powers to take over more systems in their own and bordering space and for those who want long range colonization.

Maybe there should be some limits/limitations, so it isn't just a race to claim all the most interesting far-flung systems in the first week, but they need to be reachable in a reasonable time.
 

IstvaanDCIV

IstvaanDCIV
Shir said:
Colonization will probably be a balancing act between realism and gaming functionality. Repairing stations is a feat unmanageable by a single individual, so imagine building and stocking one. Having to deliver dozens of full carrier loads to a colony, hundreds of runs...

Frontier will have to find a balance between the hardcore and casual player, at least the casual interested enough to say have a fleet carrier (about 30k of them). Colonization could be 10 times more sparse or even more. But one has to also sell the feature, and grind isn't exactly the era's favorite pastime ;)
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There's a caveat I think to the whole "but a player is just one person" genre of arguments about this. We're not going to be the ones doing the riveting and welding and what-not. That part of the process is not being represented in gameplay. A bunch of NPCs, presumably unseen, are going to be doing the actual assembly work. Instead our part in it will involve choosing locations and hauling stuff. The former is easily done by a single person.

But for the latter, the logistical side of things, we have an awful lot of force multipliers to choose from. We're not going to be dragging individual cargo canisters by hand. We've got access to ships that can carry up to low hundreds of them, or a couple of tens of thousands of them if we include fleet carriers. A mere two players is double that. So I don't think that works as a justification for making system colonisation a grindy process.
 

Riverside

Riverside
Agony_Aunt said:
The problem is, if its not interesting for people at 10 LY, and people don't really engage with it, hoping FD increase the range later, it might result in a CQC or Powerplay situation, where FD let it languish for years, citing a lack of interest from the community. Then in 5 or 10 years they revisit it saying "Hey, we've had this great idea to increase the popularity of colonization. We're going to increase the range to 1000 LY!"
Click to expand...

Rubbernuke said:
I think FD need to really understand what really drives players, and what they want. Having a 10Ly limit is great for Powerplay, but its going to pour cold water on explorers who really want to put these things in far flung systems. The latter group is where the excitement is coming from, and so I think the limitation on expansion should come from something other than a set distance.
Click to expand...

Well I know at least two people that didn't read my whole post ;)

I'm giving my opinion on what would motivate /me/ (fourth paragraph). I have to assume FDev are aware that it's easier to low ball & raise the figure later than start high & try to reel it back. As-is it doesn't massively appeal & I'd rather pick a distant system than one that can be invaded & taken over almost immediately.
 
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