Opinion: 10 LY range for colonization is ridiculously low.

[Ian Doncaster]

I gave Spansh a 10LY range and asked it to plot between Sol and Colonia - it took a while, but it did succeed. It spends a lot of time near the bubble hopping between brown dwarf systems because they're really densely packed along the galactic plane ... and then once it gets into the more dense regions around Skaude about half-way there, it can start going a lot more direct.

So you can get to within 15kLY of the galactic core, and once there you can chain to anywhere else in a similar range, and a lot of other places too.

The ultimate limitation with 10LY isn't going to be that much in spread horizontally - at least, not until you get a fair bit further away from the core than Sol is - but how far off the galactic plane you can go. And in that respect it runs into problems pretty quickly even inside the existing bubble, in places.

BGS has a number of detrimental states (blight, plague, infrastructure failure etc) that require commanders to truck in the necessary commodities to address the problem.

Well, or just wait them out - they won't last longer than ten days and most have a maximum length shorter than that.
They also don't tend to get started unless the system has a fair amount of traffic so most wouldn't occur in a largely abandoned colony at all.

What I'm more interested in is if/how they intend to address the opposite problem where almost all the new colonies are BGSly boring for one of three reasons
1) No-one visits so they're stuck in a permanent State: None, so there's no reason to visit, repeat.
2) They've been deliberately designed by their BGS-playing Architect to be boring so no-one tries to take them over: Odyssey settlements are a liability, ringed planets encourage bounty hunting, anarchy factions are too attractive as mission targets, the fewer people who do BGS actions in the system the better (the faction expands much quicker and more controllably via colonisation than it ever did by the BGS Expansion state, so anything which disturbs the perfect balance of influence where nothing can ever happen is unwanted)
3) The Architect didn't care about the BGS at all and therefore didn't bring in any factions beyond the default one, which is pinned to 100% influence and flips between Expansion and None (with the ones on a spur further away from the bubble therefore ending up banning expansion entirely)

Sure, there's no risk of running out of empty systems in the galaxy ... but the bubble is already too large for the number of players to keep the BGS moving much at all in a good half of it and to keep it giving interesting states in rather less than that.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I gave Spansh a 10LY range and asked it to plot between Sol and Colonia - it took a while, but it did succeed. It spends a lot of time near the bubble hopping between brown dwarf systems because they're really densely packed along the galactic plane ... and then once it gets into the more dense regions around Skaude about half-way there, it can start going a lot more direct.

So you can get to within 15kLY of the galactic core, and once there you can chain to anywhere else in a similar range, and a lot of other places too.

The ultimate limitation with 10LY isn't going to be that much in spread horizontally - at least, not until you get a fair bit further away from the core than Sol is - but how far off the galactic plane you can go. And in that respect it runs into problems pretty quickly even inside the existing bubble, in places.


Well, or just wait them out - they won't last longer than ten days and most have a maximum length shorter than that.
They also don't tend to get started unless the system has a fair amount of traffic so most wouldn't occur in a largely abandoned colony at all.

What I'm more interested in is if/how they intend to address the opposite problem where almost all the new colonies are BGSly boring for one of three reasons
1) No-one visits so they're stuck in a permanent State: None, so there's no reason to visit, repeat.
2) They've been deliberately designed by their BGS-playing Architect to be boring so no-one tries to take them over: Odyssey settlements are a liability, ringed planets encourage bounty hunting, anarchy factions are too attractive as mission targets, the fewer people who do BGS actions in the system the better (the faction expands much quicker and more controllably via colonisation than it ever did by the BGS Expansion state, so anything which disturbs the perfect balance of influence where nothing can ever happen is unwanted)
3) The Architect didn't care about the BGS at all and therefore didn't bring in any factions beyond the default one, which is pinned to 100% influence and flips between Expansion and None (with the ones on a spur further away from the bubble therefore ending up banning expansion entirely)

Sure, there's no risk of running out of empty systems in the galaxy ... but the bubble is already too large for the number of players to keep the BGS moving much at all in a good half of it and to keep it giving interesting states in rather less than that.

It will be interesting to see how populated new colonies can get too, because that will be a PP groups motivation as they plump up places for a better PP score.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It will be interesting to see how populated new colonies can get too, because that will be a PP groups motivation as they plump up places for a better PP score.

Does population matter that much in PP2?

The Power leaderboard just shows system count nowadays, and while it might help a bit against undermining with the System Strength Penalty, most of the new colonies are going to be far enough out the "back" that the Beyond Frontline Penalty should provide even the weakest with a substantial defence.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Does population matter that much in PP2?

The Power leaderboard just shows system count nowadays, and while it might help a bit against undermining with the System Strength Penalty, most of the new colonies are going to be far enough out the "back" that the Beyond Frontline Penalty should provide even the weakest with a substantial defence.

From what the devs talked about in Livestream 4 I assumed systems each had intrinsic value so that it was not just numbers:
Taken from the transcript (sorry for the jibberish but it all has context for timestamps)

13:24
important yeah so the overall right the the goal of the powers specifically is is to basically be the biggest power in

13:32
in the in the Galaxy um so one of the key factors that goes into that is

13:37
basically you know how much do they get and how much is it worth which means that certain star systems that are

13:43
particularly you know they're long-standing star systems they've got like noteworthy um you know economies

13:49
they are full of people they are like hubs of um trade that sort of thing like

13:56
those star systems are probably worth quite a lot so there's a score attached to each of

14:02
the star systems based on its value like it's primarily this is based on its population I think there's quite a few

14:08
factors that go into this but it essentially the the more populated a system is the more it might affect your

14:14
powers ability to do what they want to do so narratively speaking there's a ton of stuff that they get off the back of this they get to basically be a bigger

14:21
power as a result of this um that means they're going to reward you for taking systems that are higher in uh in value

14:28
um so it's not just raw numbers so if I have the 100 star systems and this power

14:34
has 100 star systems we are still probably going to be quite different in score because if I'm holding on to

14:40
something that is like dead center of the bubble I've got like a excuse me I

14:45
got a ton of systems that are you know of extremely high value like very big trade hubs and this other uh Power is

14:51
like on the outskirts of the bubble they've got like the small little outposts they've got a couple of research locations that sort of thing

14:58
those systems aren't quite aren't worth nearly as much as the other systems so it's going to make it interesting about

15:03
how you navigate territory and uh which systems you choose is good so I think that's really important for for players

15:09
to understand right curs it's like and when you're pledging to a power and I think you said it there luk it's not just land grabbing you have to be quite

15:16
strategic in terms of like um what star systems you're going to want to take because population count obviously we we

15:22
spoke about right at the start you know power play 2.0 is about controlling I say controlling people influencing

15:27
people to to be likeminded to the power that you've pledged to so we are kind of

15:33
hoping this this mechanic or power play 2.0 ctis is to it will create areas of natural conflict right because there will be systems where all the powers are

15:40
going to want to have them right yeah exactly there will be like sections of the bubble that are very

15:46
dense in these like high territory value systems that are going to be hot spots for powers to fight over um equally

15:52
though that will leave a lot of systems that go unnoticed because perhaps maybe they're not worth quite as much and they

15:59
might not have players fighting over them which might make it something for players to come in and easily take on their own like couple of players you

 

[Agony_Aunt]

that's "how the West was won" No intent offend you and I understand that depending on the starting point, it may be a tedious procedure.

Not just tedious, quite possibly impossible. We are well within the bubble, so even if we expanded as fast as we could, we might find ourselves blocked from expanding outside the bubble. Its quite possible there already is no route out even before colonization starts.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

... seriously? ... we have only basic skeleton info yet. Isn't it too soon for panicking?

Expressing an opinion is panicking now? Interesting choice of words.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

From what the devs talked about in Livestream 4 I assumed systems each had intrinsic value so that it was not just numbers:

Interesting - quite a few of the things from back then didn't make it to the final release in their exact form, and there doesn't seem to be any "system value" mentioned on the interfaces now.

There's whatever combination of variables used to calculate the System Strength Penalty, which I suppose makes a system somewhat more valuable to hold as it's a bit harder to undermine ... but if anything that would encourage fighting over the others, and it's so non-obvious as a mechanism that I don't expect people are going to plan around it much compared with "which systems can we actually reach from our borders".

 

[Martind Forlon]

About half those players just had their dreams cancelled by an arbitrary expansion limit, and the framework that's been outlined so far does …

@Agony_Aunt … You can see in quote above. It’s classic 101 “we are doomed”, instead thinking with cold head about giving it first a try (or at least wait for more info near release). It makes perfect sense to have very short expansion range at start, it’s even logical without looking on technical difficulties for game. And it makes also sense from lore perspective, bcs so far all what humanity had were sleepers ships.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Interesting - quite a few of the things from back then didn't make it to the final release in their exact form, and there doesn't seem to be any "system value" mentioned on the interfaces now.

There's whatever combination of variables used to calculate the System Strength Penalty, which I suppose makes a system somewhat more valuable to hold as it's a bit harder to undermine ... but if anything that would encourage fighting over the others, and it's so non-obvious as a mechanism that I don't expect people are going to plan around it much compared with "which systems can we actually reach from our borders".

Its one of the things that we need clarification on, really. Maybe the devs did jettison it, trying to equalise the discrepancy between core sitting powers and those further out? Saying that it would then make less sense, given a tin shack outpost having the same heft as say, Sol.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

@Agony_Aunt … You can see in quote above. It’s classic 101 “we are doomed”, instead thinking with cold head about giving it first a try (or at least wait for more info near release). It makes perfect sense to have very short expansion range at start, it’s even logical without looking on technical difficulties for game. And it makes also sense from lore perspective, bcs so far all what humanity had were sleepers ships.

Not doomed at all. We have a beta test first.

For the moment, just discussing based on what we know and extrapolating from that.

We had our ideas of what colonization could be. With a 10LY limit, for some of us, its not of interest. We hope to set up colonies far from current human space, perhaps requiring a bridge to get there, but not 10LY at a time. Crossing galactic arms will be night on impossible.

 

[Rubbernuke]

How far can someone get in 24 hours too? (i.e. the time limit for plonking down a nav?)

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

How far can someone get in 24 hours too? (i.e. the time limit for plonking down a nav?)

Anywhere with enough neutron jumping and a specialized ship, unless the beacon is very heavy.

The main limitation would be trying to go to only carrier accessible systems if carriers jumps happen to be slow that day.

 

[Kzak]

How far can someone get in 24 hours too? (i.e. the time limit for plonking down a nav?)

Probably anywhere in the Milky Way, yes. Following up the beacon deployment with resources might be more difficult, depending on the requirements we'll probably get to know more about early next year.

 

[Mersozz]

I'd go on a limb to say the founding faction can't be retreated; it'd make no sense otherwise.

Bear in mind though... there's nothing other players can "take" from you.... any player can (and should) be able to colonise with any faction they like... so even if some other faction takes over the system.. you are still it's architect. And that's going to be a big turnoff for other people who want to expend effort "capturing" colonised systems with other factions... they literally have no handle on the future shape of the system if they do.

Edit: explicitly, control can't be bound to faction ownership of a colonized system, because players don't own faction

The first faction in, the one you put in when you set up the system, will probably be counted as a "native" faction, meaning they can't be kicked out. So if someone else wants to push another faction, they can, but they will be vulnerable to being kicked out, unlike the founding faction.

If we are allowed to set up systems further than BGS range, then there will be no chance of that, unless someone sets up another system within BGS range.

Good points, gentlemen. I agree it could be sorted out that way; specifically, the idea that the founding faction becomes native.

I will posit the following hypothetical scenario, and would welcome any feedback.

1. Commander Fancypants decides he wants to colonize a new system. After a great deal of planning, and effort, he establishes his new station in the Candyland system. His small squadron is pledged to the Pearl Clutchers faction, which is a Democracy. His plan is to mine the rich platinium and tritium hotspots and create a bustling commercial system for himself, his squadron, and visiting Commanders.
2. Commander Dragonlady stumbles across the Candyland system. She is the leader of a squadron pledged to the Screaming Banshees faction, which is an Anarchy. She looks at the resources in the system and feels this is a perfect place to set up her pirate lair. The fact that it is currently occupied by another player fits in perfectly with her preferred style of play - pillaging is her strong suit.
3. Within the space of a couple weeks, the Screaming Banshee faction engages in a war with the Pearl Clutchers and wins the conflict and takes over control of the main starport.
4. Months later, visitors are warned to avoid Candyland, which has descended into a hive of scum and villainy.

Given the scenario above, I would have the following questions:

1. After the Screaming Banshees faction takes over the system, if the system architect creates a new asset in the system, does it belong to the Pearl Clutchers or the Screaming Banshees?
2. Given that the Screaming Banshees are anarchists, should we assume that the BGS mechanics within the system have now flipped to Anarchy, which is a feature that is different than the original plans of system architect?
3. If colonization does not allow a system architect to curb the creep of the BGS and/or Power Play, will it cater to all playstyles, or just become an extension of BGS and Power Play 2.0 ?
4. Will colonized systems attract gankers?
5. Given the controvesial (broken) state of Crime and Punishment in the game, will system architects have effective policing powers over the systems "they can't lose"?

Given the scenario above, I'm thinking the best way to assure that players can't "lose" systems is if their assets have the same docking privileges as a fleet carrier. Players who take the time and energy to colonize a system and create the assets within them should be also be given the ability to secure them. The game is already coded to give fleet carrier owners that option, and I'm imagining the cost and time involved in colonization will be similar to a fleet carrier, so I think this would make the most sense.

Another option would be to greatly increase the colonization distance for colonizers who wish to do their own thing far away from the tidal forces of BGS and PP2.

Again, any comments on this scenario are welcome, and my thoughts above are just personal opinions.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Anywhere with enough neutron jumping and a specialized ship, unless the beacon is very heavy.

The main limitation would be trying to go to only carrier accessible systems if carriers jumps happen to be slow that day.

Probably anywhere in the Milky Way, yes. Following up the beacon deployment with resources might be more difficult, depending on the requirements we'll probably get to know more about early next year.

Then really I think the process should be:

you visiting the contact with the faction of your choice > select your claim > claim price is based on distance (so the edge of the galaxy in one go is like, say, 50 billion) > off you go

If FD 'unlocked' this, it means it becomes a race to get there and something that might be a newish spin on travel as well as being risky if you screw it up.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

you visiting the contact with the faction of your choice > select your claim > claim price is based on distance (so the edge of the galaxy in one go is like, say, 50 billion) > off you go

If FD 'unlocked' this, it means it becomes a race to get there and something that might be a newish spin on travel as well as being risky if you screw it up.

Part of it is lack of tools.

The claim range could be 100Ly, 1000Ly or whatever, but if as part of it you'd have to drop beacons off every 10Ly to guide the jump(s) of the construction ships then that would come awfully close to gameplay.

What you'll be doing with daisy chaining is the same, but with more hauling to drop the beacons and time gating to the the colonization system contact and having to plan your route using external tools probably.

This would also of course run the risk of players hogging systems with temporary nav beacons, but I having a separate "temp nav beacon (as many as you can afford)" and "full claim (one per person until built)" state for systems could be a cool way to fix the range issues.

I think there's OK reasons to have a 10Ly range, but FDev hasn't given us their reasoning or any justification there really.

 

[LCU No Fool Like One]

I gave Spansh a 10LY range and asked it to plot between Sol and Colonia - it took a while, but it did succeed. It spends a lot of time near the bubble hopping between brown dwarf systems because they're really densely packed along the galactic plane ... and then once it gets into the more dense regions around Skaude about half-way there, it can start going a lot more direct.

So you can get to within 15kLY of the galactic core, and once there you can chain to anywhere else in a similar range, and a lot of other places too.

The ultimate limitation with 10LY isn't going to be that much in spread horizontally - at least, not until you get a fair bit further away from the core than Sol is - but how far off the galactic plane you can go. And in that respect it runs into problems pretty quickly even inside the existing bubble, in places.


Well, or just wait them out - they won't last longer than ten days and most have a maximum length shorter than that.
They also don't tend to get started unless the system has a fair amount of traffic so most wouldn't occur in a largely abandoned colony at all.

What I'm more interested in is if/how they intend to address the opposite problem where almost all the new colonies are BGSly boring for one of three reasons
1) No-one visits so they're stuck in a permanent State: None, so there's no reason to visit, repeat.
2) They've been deliberately designed by their BGS-playing Architect to be boring so no-one tries to take them over: Odyssey settlements are a liability, ringed planets encourage bounty hunting, anarchy factions are too attractive as mission targets, the fewer people who do BGS actions in the system the better (the faction expands much quicker and more controllably via colonisation than it ever did by the BGS Expansion state, so anything which disturbs the perfect balance of influence where nothing can ever happen is unwanted)
3) The Architect didn't care about the BGS at all and therefore didn't bring in any factions beyond the default one, which is pinned to 100% influence and flips between Expansion and None (with the ones on a spur further away from the bubble therefore ending up banning expansion entirely)

Sure, there's no risk of running out of empty systems in the galaxy ... but the bubble is already too large for the number of players to keep the BGS moving much at all in a good half of it and to keep it giving interesting states in rather less than that.

How did you do that? Did you use the galaxy plotter and set the range on the ship config?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Part of it is lack of tools.

The claim range could be 100Ly, 1000Ly or whatever, but if as part of it you'd have to drop beacons off every 10Ly to guide the jump(s) of the construction ships then that would come awfully close to gameplay.

What you'll be doing with daisy chaining is the same, but with more hauling to drop the beacons and time gating to the the colonization system contact and having to plan your route using external tools probably.

This would also of course run the risk of players hogging systems with temporary nav beacons, but I having a separate "temp nav beacon (as many as you can afford)" and "full claim (one per person until built)" state for systems could be a cool way to fix the range issues.

I think there's OK reasons to have a 10Ly range, but FDev hasn't given us their reasoning or any justification there really.

Dropping beacons every 10Ly is (to me) the same as having to jump 10Ly really and busy work- what people want is to get to where the claim is and start the colony. In that regard I'd just focus on that.

 

[Desirsar]

Sure, there's no risk of running out of empty systems in the galaxy ... but the bubble is already too large for the number of players to keep the BGS moving much at all in a good half of it and to keep it giving interesting states in rather less than that.

Is the region of space around my faction an exception? Everyone has ambassador channels on their Discord servers and treaties over expansion and no one actually competes with each other for space. If it's not the exception, the bubble is uninteresting because the players make it that way. If I colonize ten thousand light years out, I'm going to see roughly the same amount of traffic around my new bubble, and that traffic might actually be more aggressive.

 

[Kzak]

A thought experiment: Let's say you start out with 10 LY colonization range, and the cost for that is 10 million. Doubling the colonization range (optional) doubles the cost. 20 LY would be 20 million, and so forth, up until 81,920 LY could cost 81,920,000,000 credits.

This is unlikely to be the model put into the game, as mentioned, just some numbercrunching.