It's great to be back but I have a big concern

[Refreshing Truth]

But more or less compromised than by
- Horizons giving those who purchased it access to engineering (tripling or more the power of their ships at almost everything)
- Odyssey purchasers having access to a whole set of BGS, Powerplay and other activities that are sometimes highly effective and not available to anyone else
- players being able to give or share resources with newer players
- players being able to look up large amounts of both walkthroughs and information on 3rd-party sites that they wouldn't normally have in-game access to
- existing competitive exploits being considered an ultra-low priority for bug fixing (the "wake scan" Powerplay exploit, for example)

If you're after a game that has strong single player progression and balanced inter-player competition then Elite Dangerous hasn't been that at any point in the last decade and isn't going to start now.

All the things you listed aren't a big concern to me in comparison to buying in game advantages with mtx, the pay to win is much concerning to me.
I support continued monetisation in mmo's whether it be through paid expansions or paid subs, so the tiny % of competitive players who refuse to buy 2 expansions for a 10 year old game are not people I take seriously, nor do I think they exist.
Sharing resources with new players is fine with me as it takes place in the gameworld and one player had to earn those resources, not just swipe for them, I think trade enriches the game and creates a realistic economy and social dynamics and structures, gifting money and ships is something I think the game should support, if cheater's start RMT'ing then they risk losing their accounts with hundreds or maybe thousands of hours of playtime.
Everyone who plays Elite has access to the internet so players looking up guides online is not an issue for me as it's fair.
Competitive exploit bugs should be fixed by the developer, but yes a bug that can be fixed with a patch is not as concerning to me as the creeping scope of irreversible pay to win which will destroy every aspect of the game's integrity just like it did in EvE online to the point no one takes it seriously and wants to invest themselves because 'its totally pay to win'

 

[Ian Doncaster]

just like it did in EvE online

Difference is that EVE sells itself as the competitive spreadsheet simulator to end all competitive spreadsheet simulators, to be played by people who like crushing their enemies, while ED sells itself (or at least it should) as a relaxed space sandbox where you wander around and do stuff and none of it really matters but you might have fun along the way.

So EVE is potentially hurt a lot more by people gaining competitive advantage than the largely non-competitive ED and its largely non-competitive player base is.

I support continued monetisation in mmo's whether it be through paid expansions or paid subs, so the tiny % of competitive players who refuse to buy 2 expansions for a 10 year old game are not people I take seriously, nor do I think they exist.

You can of course draw whatever lines you like when determining what games to play - but I don't personally understand the line which says:
- it is fine to give players a competitive advantage in exchange for money if it is packaged and sold as DLC
- it is not fine to give players a competitive advantage in exchange for money if it is packaged and sold as MTX

The marketing of the competitive difference seems to be the least important component here.

Would the Type-9 suddenly become acceptable if rather than being sold for Arx, it was added to Steam as the new "Type-9 Quest Expansion" where you pay £10, it starts some trivial one-off in-game courier mission, and on completion of that you get access to the T-9 prebuild?

Would Odyssey be unacceptable if rather than being bought for £10 it was sold for 16800 ARX as an "unlock exclusive planets and equipment" transaction?

 

[aRJay]

Thanks for the message

What don't I understand?

My concerns are:
* Paid late game ships are inherently unfair in many of the competitive gameplay loops frontier have added to the game and are a form of Pay to Win, this is bad for the percentage of players that do enjoy the competitive gameplay frontier added.

Apart from the rank locked ships I don’t consider the term late game is any more relevant to Elite Dangerous as the term end game, there are ships that cost more to get but players with friends have been able to fast track credit earnings for at least the last eight years.

* Buying late game ships as a new player also devalues non competitive solo play as it allows a player to immediately skip to the endgame, ship progression is the most significant progression system, skipping it with real money devalues the enjoyment of progression worsening the new player experience.

What endgame? Plus if I am playing solo I am playing against myself and the NPCs so what other players if any do or don’t do is irrelevant.

* Pay to win in all live service games naturally has to keep becoming more and more intrusive otherwise it ceases to generate revenue,

Only if the supply of new players dries up.

if we're selling late game A class engineered T9's now, where will we be in 2 years time? This in turn will turn off new players from the game as it becomes known as 'a pay to win game'.

I'd be interested to hear why you agree or disagree with me? Do you have any arguments to counter the above?

I disagree because I think you are wrong.

Do you think saying 'ships are not progression' is true for how most normal players feel, or just true for you now you have 10,000 hours in game?

Progression was gaining ranks towards getting Elite for me.

Is there a danger you've become very out of touch in the same way billionaires can't relate to normal people?

I wonder if when you first bought and flew the Anaconda for the first time whether you felt like you'd not just progresssed? Let's be honest, we both know you absolutely felt like you'd just levelled up.

Actually I was quite disappointed with it compared to the hype, I grew to like it a bit better until I went exploring and realised just how much room you needed to turn to detail scan all the moons of a gas giant or how much you had to slow down to reduce that turning circle.

I had in the past already ditched ‘level up’ ships because they felt worse than what I already had.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

The late game A class engineered T9 is absolutely a pay to win ship that gives many big advantages in all the competitive areas of the game, I'm worried about what they'll add next, both the integrity of the competitiveness and the single player progression have been compromised by this.

It really doesn't. I'm much more likely to use a Sidewinder for powerplay than a T-9 and come out with considerably more merits that have gone into something strategically useful.

How is a new player using a T-9 to do anything useful here?

As for all competitive aspects of the game, I've just covered the only one singular competitive aspect. Anything else is single player progression, which they've only skipped a few days ahead. Even 6 years ago I remember threads with people getting Anacondas after a week. The difference is insignificant.

 

[Darrack]

It really doesn't. I'm much more likely to use a Sidewinder for powerplay than a T-9

Exactly, i used to haul tons of merits in my cutter to reinforce systems, traded that for a 64T Mandy to run missions.

O7

 

[aRJay]

Regarding the exo biology to make money fast, it's not realistic for a new player to discover that early on, perhaps like you say if they're specifically interested about exploration and read about it in the codex they might discover it, otherwise the game has essentially hidden it from all the other missions and playstyles presented to the player first which 'feel' more important due to menus and missions, exo bio appears where? as a desk in some on foot stations where the npc just says hand stuff in here? If they watch a YouTube guide or whatever then they might learn its more profitable vs other stuff but otherwise yeah it's mostly meta gaming that gets you too it when people tell you its super profitable

Perhaps they are curious about all these rank categories on the first tab of the right had HUD screen in their cockpit.
Also not everyone holds to the never read manuals or anything else about a new product before leaping in and getting everything wrong philosophy of life.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Perhaps they are curious about all these rank categories on the first tab of the right had HUD screen in their cockpit.
Also not everyone holds to the never read manuals or anything else about a new product before leaping in and getting everything wrong philosophy of life.

Especially as exobiology was one of the flagship gameplay loops that was being added as part of Odyssey. It would be equal to suggesting that players wouldn't get into on foot combat situations.

Come to think of it, the first plants I scanned were on a world where I'd been sent for an on foot assassination mission.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

I am not brave enough to read all the posts on this thread, so, sorry if this has been said already.

These prebuilt ships are shortcuts, perfect to start an activity early on, and far from perfect ships. The only things that really differentiate them is the no rebuy cost of the build (which does not include any additional modules), and their paint jobs+kit parts which are purely cosmetic.

Now, the day FDev offers a prebuilt FdL equipped seeker version of Plasma accelerators, or Python2 with class 3 Concord cannons, or Sidewinder with 2x C4 hardpoints...that would be considered Pay-to-Win.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

[...] or Sidewinder with 2x C4 hardpoints...that would be considered Pay-to-Win.

BTW, the latter was a joke, not Pay-to-Win ;-)

 

[aRJay]

BTW, the latter was a joke, not Pay-to-Win ;-)

Spoilsport!

Lots of commanders had their hopes up there.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

Spoilsport!

Lots of commanders had their hopes up there.

Mmmh...to be realistically playable, the ship kit would need to come with a class 7 power distributor on a trailer... With that in mind, it would only dominate other Sidewinders, so a pretty restrictive P2win...

 

[Kestrel1]

All the things you listed aren't a big concern to me in comparison to buying in game advantages with mtx, the pay to win is much concerning to me.

Okay. Be concerned.

I support continued monetisation in mmo's whether it be through paid expansions or paid subs, so the tiny % of competitive players who refuse to buy 2 expansions for a 10 year old game are not people I take seriously, nor do I think they exist.

Your support doesn't matter because you're not the target audience of this game or Eve Online.

The reason you're not the target audience of these games is because you don't actually play them:

• You don't know how the mechanics work
• You don't know what progression is/isn't
• You won't take the time to learn these things

These games are made for people who enjoy them. The developers don't (and shouldn't) care about the concerns of people with an agenda.

 

[Refreshing Truth]

Okay. Be concerned.


Your support doesn't matter because you're not the target audience of this game or Eve Online.

The reason you're not the target audience of these games is because you don't actually play them:

• You don't know how the mechanics work
• You don't know what progression is/isn't
• You won't take the time to learn these things

These games are made for people who enjoy them. The developers don't (and shouldn't) care about the concerns of people with an agenda.

Elite is pay to win because you can buy in game advantages with real money that improve your performance in almost all aspects of the game including the competitive multiplayer aspects like PowerPlay.
I'm concerned about where things are heading

 

[Kestrel1]

I'm concerned about where things are heading

All of your questions have been answered. You can be concerned but there's nowhere else to go from here.

The "advantage" a new player gains through buying a ship in the store has no measurable impact on the balance of the game. As someone else said it's "pay to lose" because the stuff offered in the shop will do you more harm than good.

I understand you think this is a slippery slope. Even if the current system has no measurable impact your concern is that this will expand in the future. The worst case scenario is buying Federation/Empire rank, buying a "ride" to the center of the galaxy (teleporting), buying engineering upgrades, and buying credits for cash.

Will this ever happen? Yes, it's possible. For example if Frontier gets bought out by another company that intends to milk the franchise. Happens all the time.

But Frontier always has this ability no matter what happens. Even if the current shop was cosmetic only they could add all of the above overnight. So it doesn't really matter what the current system looks like. The slippery slope argument doesn't matter.

If your concern is about the current state then multiple people have already told you that - no - nothing you do in the shop will have a measurable impact on anything that happens in the galaxy/economy/etc. Does it allow a player to transport more goods for a Power Play faction in their first 100 hours of playtime? Yes it does. Does this transporting have any meaningful impact on anyone else? No it does not (for all the reasons listed in previous posts).

I really don't think there's anything left to say.

 

[heathenlamb]

Paying for anything in real world money to improve my enjoyment of ED is not cheating ... and has ZERO bearing on your interaction or lack there of, with me, ingame.
You have no way of knowing if I earned via gameplay or simply purchased , any upgrades or ships I'm piloting.

If I had my way, I'd be able to purchase pre-engineered engine mods with arx ... which again, would have ZERO baring on anyone elses game but mine.
For me ... ED is not a game experience you WIN ... it's a game experience you play to enjoy ... whatever that is.

It's forge your OWN path ... not control someone else's.

 

[AngryAntz]

Even if store bought ships were the best you could ever get (they are not even close to that), to tempt the new/casual player, having the best guns in the game is pointless if you don't know how to fly your ship to line up to the target.

If I followed someones build and made the best gunship available, then went to fight against a level 1 NPC, I am still going to go boom, because the best equipment/engineering is pointless if you don't have the skill to fight/defend successfully.

If your a long term player, then you will likely have already engineered far better ship/equipment then is offered on the store. I bought my Mandalay and T8 for credits, then I used upgraded/engineered parts from my existing ships, even though like all hand-me-downs they don't quite fit properly, both are far better than what is on offer in store.

Buying ships does not buy skill. Buying a ship from store does not mean you will "win" the game, even more so in a game like ED, where there is nothing to "win".

 

[Monk]

Eh...I still fly a sloppily legacy engineered Cobra Mk III for the slight majority of what I do.

This game really is "blaze your own trail" in most respects. Whether you want to start to slowly build wealth (and dip into smuggling) with the rares run, cheese your way into money with exobio (or any of the credit printers out there), be a strict bounty hunter that pieces their ship over time, travel to Sag A* in a hauler, or buy a pre-built to jump in on doing whatever, it doesn't matter in any sort of competition in this game. A new player facing another new player in a pre-built is in no different a situation than facing a new player who cheesed their first billion and are now hunting for other newbs.

Regarding powerplay or BGS, the actions of an individual (excepting the most determined and rich in free time) are inconsequential to most outcomes. You might tip the balance in a particular BGS state but its really hard, at least in my experience, to truly make your presence felt on a system (until Trailblazers, of course).

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

Elite is pay to win because you can buy in game advantages with real money that improve your performance in almost all aspects of the game including the competitive multiplayer aspects like PowerPlay.

No.

I mean, can you provide some examples? I'm happy to be wrong...

 

[Refreshing Truth]

All of your questions have been answered. You can be concerned but there's nowhere else to go from here.

The "advantage" a new player gains through buying a ship in the store has no measurable impact on the balance of the game. As someone else said it's "pay to lose" because the stuff offered in the shop will do you more harm than good.

I understand you think this is a slippery slope. Even if the current system has no measurable impact your concern is that this will expand in the future. The worst case scenario is buying Federation/Empire rank, buying a "ride" to the center of the galaxy (teleporting), buying engineering upgrades, and buying credits for cash.

Will this ever happen? Yes, it's possible. For example if Frontier gets bought out by another company that intends to milk the franchise. Happens all the time.

But Frontier always has this ability no matter what happens. Even if the current shop was cosmetic only they could add all of the above overnight. So it doesn't really matter what the current system looks like. The slippery slope argument doesn't matter.

If your concern is about the current state then multiple people have already told you that - no - nothing you do in the shop will have a measurable impact on anything that happens in the galaxy/economy/etc. Does it allow a player to transport more goods for a Power Play faction in their first 100 hours of playtime? Yes it does. Does this transporting have any meaningful impact on anyone else? No it does not (for all the reasons listed in previous posts).

I really don't think there's anything left to say.

None of my concerns have been answered, infact the responses have only made me more concerned about the extent of the pay to win already in the game, this game is very pay to win and it seems many people in this thread are re defining what pay to win is or they're making false claims that a T9 is as effective as a sidewinder in PowerPlay, this is obviously a false belief but it may be too painful to accept the truth.

In PowerPlay you can rank up faster and make bigger contributions to the territory war if you buy the T9 from the store, not only that but you can also make a lot more money a lot faster meaning new players buying the pay to win T9 in the store can then quickly access any the credits to buy any ship in the game and even their own freighter, it's very pay to win.

The main argument I hear in this thread is this 'I don't play the game competitively therefore buying ships that make you far more effective in competitive elements of the game are not pay to win', I'm sorry but that's not a good argument against buying in game advantages in pvp gameplay.

The game is going very pay to win and I'm concerned.

 

[Refreshing Truth]

It's also just come to my attention there is even more advantages to the paid A grade T9 in the store, when you die in the store T9 you have ZERO rebuy, absolutely shocking advantage over the in game T9 of the same spec that a player earned! it would cost you MILLIONS to rebuy normally, the replies in this thread have shed a lot of light on what's going on and I now feel the ship store isn't just a concern to me, it's actually a crisis!
Thankyou to everyone who has shared information in this thread about how these in game advantage mtx's work, pretty shocking tbh, how has this been allowed to happen?