It's great to be back but I have a big concern

how has this been allowed to happen?
No one cares because it doesn't affect anyone. In order for people to care about something it needs to actually affect them.

No one has ever said "I was going to take this system but all these P2W T8s with no re-buy made it impossible!".

Why has no one said this? Because no one engages in Power Play to "win" at taking systems. They do it for the rewards.

How about the people engaging in competitive activities? For example competing within the same Power Play faction on the leaderboard. A new player in a Sidewinder will always score lower on the leaderboard than a new player with a store bought T9 - right? Right. But none of those new players are competing on the leaderboards. Everyone competing on the leaderboards are running fully engineered ships and have billions of credits that they earned anyway.

The same is true for PvP. The people who play PvP competitively all have billions of credits and fully engineered FDLs. None of them are affected by someone purchasing an FDL via the in-game store.

That's ultimately why your concerns don't matter. No one is negatively affected. If someone is so new and so broke (in-game) that they can't afford a T9 then they aren't playing the game competitively anyway.

To put it another way: the store does give you an advantage but only when you and the player you're "competing" against is in the very early stages of the game. No one, including the early stage players, give a crap about that because they're busy exploring the game and not being competitive.
 
None of my concerns have been answered, infact the responses have only made me more concerned about the extent of the pay to win already in the game, this game is very pay to win and it seems many people in this thread are re defining what pay to win is or they're making false claims that a T9 is as effective as a sidewinder in PowerPlay, this is obviously a false belief but it may be too painful to accept the truth.

In PowerPlay you can rank up faster and make bigger contributions to the territory war if you buy the T9 from the store, not only that but you can also make a lot more money a lot faster meaning new players buying the pay to win T9 in the store can then quickly access any the credits to buy any ship in the game and even their own freighter, it's very pay to win.

The main argument I hear in this thread is this 'I don't play the game competitively therefore buying ships that make you far more effective in competitive elements of the game are not pay to win', I'm sorry but that's not a good argument against buying in game advantages in pvp gameplay.

The game is going very pay to win and I'm concerned.
Noone is redefining anything .. you are claiming disparity where there simply isn't one.
 
No one cares because it doesn't affect anyone. In order for people to care about something it needs to actually affect them.

No one has ever said "I was going to take this system but all these P2W T8s with no re-buy made it impossible!".

Why has no one said this? Because no one engages in Power Play to "win" at taking systems. They do it for the rewards.

How about the people engaging in competitive activities? For example competing within the same Power Play faction on the leaderboard. A new player in a Sidewinder will always score lower on the leaderboard than a new player with a store bought T9 - right? Right. But none of those new players are competing on the leaderboards. Everyone competing on the leaderboards are running fully engineered ships and have billions of credits that they earned anyway.

The same is true for PvP. The people who play PvP competitively all have billions of credits and fully engineered FDLs. None of them are affected by someone purchasing an FDL via the in-game store.

That's ultimately why your concerns don't matter. No one is negatively affected. If someone is so new and so broke (in-game) that they can't afford a T9 then they aren't playing the game competitively anyway.

To put it another way: the store does give you an advantage but only when you and the player you're "competing" against is in the very early stages of the game. No one, including the early stage players, give a crap about that because they're busy exploring the game and not being competitive.

"To put it another way: the store does give you an advantage but only when you and the player you're "competing" against is in the very early stages of the game. "

Now we're dangerously close to agreeing, my point to you is, yes for the billionaire players with fully engineered ships and thousands of hours of playtime this store doesn't currently offer much for them, but certainly for newer players, who enjoy competition in games, it does, their experience IS pay to win, yours is not.

It's similar to a lvl 60 boost in WoW right now, for example WoW also has the ability to buy ingame currency, how long before we can buy credits in elite with real money? Players want those afterall, and you can still make millions in game 'with 15 minutes of exo bio' so you'll say 'its not pay to win, you can earn credits in game easily', the problem with your position is you have no red lines and no principles, you will carry on moving the goal posts of defining 'pay to win' and selling off every progression system that new players experience (ships, credits, power play rank etc) and explaining away all of this whilst insulting people who are negatively experiencing p2w by saying "you don't know the game well enough if you had 10,000 hours like me you'd realise you don't need to buy anything in the mtx store", but you're forgetting that those experiences you had were driven by progression goals, for example you don't see ships as progression now because you can have all of them now.

I get the p2w doesn't effect you now and you just want new content and for the new people to join and enjoy the game like you do, but I promise you, defending the creeping pay to win in this game will not help new players enjoy the game and join you as commited players, eventually the monetisation team is gonna have scared off most new players, ruined the games reputation and integrity like EvE and then the monetisation team is gonna come for you, and you'll start being made to feel the pressure to swipe, in the words of a great man 'you will feel influence'.
 
It's also just come to my attention there is even more advantages to the paid A grade T9 in the store, when you die in the store T9 you have ZERO rebuy, absolutely shocking advantage over the in game T9 of the same spec that a player earned! it would cost you MILLIONS to rebuy normally
Yeah so again that ignores the fact - yeah, fact - that earning mere millions is easy even in the early game.

I realise you have derecognised that fact personally, but that does not stop it from being true.
 
Now we're dangerously close to agreeing, my point to you is, yes for the billionaire players with fully engineered ships and thousands of hours of playtime this store doesn't currently offer much for them, but certainly for newer players, who enjoy competition in games, it does, their experience IS pay to win, yours is not.
In Elite, by the time you're able to "win" at anything you are way past the point that shop purchases can help.

I've already given you plenty of examples.

If you want to PvP you need a properly engineered ship. The pre-built ships aren't even close to good enough. And by the time you can build a properly engineered ship you'll have more than enough money to afford it just from playing the game. This doesn't take thousands of hours.

If you want to engage in Power Play you are facing off against billionaires with a very good understanding of game systems. Nothing you do as a new player will even put a minor dent in Power Play. Even if you bought a T9 from the shop.

You are only focusing on the "pay" part and not the "win" part.

defending the creeping pay to win in this game will not help new players enjoy the game and join you as commited players
I disagree. I think the paid shop is a great idea and boosts the overall health of the game.

Paying for progression in games like Elite and Eve are great systems when done right. Neither Elite nor Eve have implemented it in a way that upsets the game balance. If you join up Eve today, buy a ton of ISK, buy a bunch of boosters, kit out a meta fit, and go ratting anywhere near me... I will gank you and laugh at you for wasting your money. In Eve when your ship blows up everything is lost (there is no rebuy). So when I gank you I've literally taken your real world money.

I've gotten multiple friends into this game and watched their progress. Only one person used the shop (joined recently) to buy a ship and they're still enjoying the game today. He has a very demanding job and doesn't get to play much. He's somewhat able to keep up with us this way and has the money to spare. The other guys have just been progressing normally like I did.
 
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It's also just come to my attention there is even more advantages to the paid A grade T9 in the store, when you die in the store T9 you have ZERO rebuy, absolutely shocking advantage over the in game T9 of the same spec that a player earned! it would cost you MILLIONS to rebuy normally, the replies in this thread have shed a lot of light on what's going on and I now feel the ship store isn't just a concern to me, it's actually a crisis!
1) This only applies if you don't replace any modules on the T-9. Replaced modules are rebought at the normal rate
2) I have a 25% rebuy discount on every single ship I own in every single circumstance because over twelve years ago I backed the Kickstarter at a moderate level. If the slippery slope is only sliding this gradually, I reckon I have at least a few decades before it actually becomes a problem.
3) Any player can get a 100% rebuy discount on all their ships in a wide range of circumstances by obtaining a middling Powerplay rank.
4) It doesn't protect any cargo, bounties, exploration data or loss-on-death missions, which are all destroyed as usual (and on a T-9 trade run are likely worth more than the rebuy anyway)

how has this been allowed to happen?
Because this isn't a democracy and Frontier can develop the game however they want? There's no "allowed" about it.

Since - though not caused by - the introduction of the pre-packaged ships, player activity levels and numbers are up all round. It seems that - while the ARX store is basically a sideshow in terms of income - people don't largely share your objections to them existing either.

And: it is absolutely fine for you not to like this, everyone can draw their own lines, but the solution to this is for you to go and play something else because "some players can pay real money for rebuy discounts not available to others" has been in the game literally since the first public beta. If it's been like that for almost eleven years it's not going to change now.
 
Paying for progression in games like Elite and Eve are great systems when done right. Neither Elite nor Eve have implemented it in a way that upsets the game balance.
Look at EvE Online's recent reviews on steam, now at Mixed despite being free to play, on a downward trajectory because progression meaningless now since you can buy skills in EvE, many negative reviews cite pay to win as the off putting factor, game doing very badly and that's the future you advocate for Elite, not good!
 
Because this isn't a democracy and Frontier can develop the game however they want? There's no "allowed" about it.
Wrong, Frontier are actively listening to player feedback and have been very responsive over the last few years, unfortunately it seems some of the playerbase refuse to give criticism to the pay to win and actively advocate for it, just like in this thread! The development team are powerless against the monetisation team when a vocally loud minority of players are defending and advocating for pay to win in the game, it's gonna destroy Elite's future, players who don't want pay to win in Elite need to speak up and raise their concerns! I think the majority of normal players don't want it, just a fanatical and loud minority!
 
Look at EvE Online's recent reviews on steam, now at Mixed despite being free to play, on a downward trajectory because progression meaningless now since you can buy skills in EvE, many negative reviews cite pay to win as the off putting factor, game doing very badly and that's the future you advocate for Elite, not good!
😂😂😂😂

Eve has been around since 2003. It'll be fine.

Just look at the BRs with 100 billion+ ISK losses:

It's as good or better than it ever was.
 
😂😂😂😂

Eve has been around since 2003. It'll be fine.

Just look at the BRs with 100 billion+ ISK losses:

It's as good or better than it ever was.
You disagree with thousands of steam user reviews and label them as irrelevant, this is an unreasonable position to take, don't advocate for the poison of pay to win from EVE to be added to Elite please, it will ruin the new player experience here too, it's going to destroy the game for new players, most people don't like pay to win!
 
I think the majority of normal players don't want it, just a fanatical and loud minority!
If that was the case then why have player activity numbers risen significantly and average Steam review scores risen very slightly since the introduction of the quickstart ships? The majority of players clearly don't care in the slightest either way - they're not going to buy this stuff themselves, but they don't care if other people do: what Frontier produces in terms of actual features has had a massively more significant impact on player numbers, player activity levels, and franchise revenue.

Anyone who objected to P2W in all forms would never have bought ED in the first place because of the Kickstarter perks (which were advertised on day 1 of the Kickstarter itself). Almost everyone else ... the game has not yet slipped far enough down the slippery slope for it to be a problem for them. What it does in a decade is a problem for a decade's time, sure - but most people don't play games with the "I hope this is still good in a decade" hope because there'll be other games released by then anyway.

At the moment the P2W in Elite Dangerous solely consists of some largely irrelevant advantages (rebuy discounts when "losing your ship at all" is practically a game bug/design flaw) and some quickstart things which don't get anywhere near the capabilities of a fully-optimised ship. Unlike EVE, the game has virtually no competitive elements anyway and doesn't sell itself on either its direct PvP or its indirect forms. So at the moment the majority of players really don't care either way (though nor are they rushing out to buy these quickstart options).

If Frontier brings out something considerably more useful as a cash-only purchase in five years time? Sure, at that point that might be a problem. They're not obliged to do that in a finite timescale: the trend from
2012: you can purchase a 25% or 50% rebuy discount on all your ships and modules
2024: you can purchase a 100% rebuy discount on a very small number of ships and modules
is extremely slow.

People are generally going to spend more time worrying and posting on what Frontier is going to do in the last/next month
- fail to document colonisation sufficiently for people to understand what they're supposed to be doing
- make knee-jerk changes to player feedback on colonisation which end up going too far the other way and actually make things worse
- not make changes to player feedback and just move on and leave it as it is
than about what they might hypothetically do in 5-10-20 years time when the game might have closed for unrelated reasons, people will most likely have personally moved on to something else anyway even if it doesn't, etc.

players who don't want pay to win in Elite need to speak up and raise their concerns
When the first quickstart ships were introduced there were a large number of threads like this one, a large number of negative Steam reviews ... and then within a month it was all back to normal, what's the fuss about, everyone talking about the new Powerplay 2 announcement details instead.

They've had the feedback, they've more importantly seen how many people actually voted with their feet and/or wallets almost a year ago, and they've presumably concluded from that there is no harm (and a small amount of extra income) at the current level.

If they change the level later to introduce larger P2W that crosses more people's red lines (and aren't smart enough to package it up as a DLC rather than an ARX purchase to fool most of those players into thinking it's actually absolutely fine and praiseworthy) ... then that might cause a large enough actual change in player behaviour (as opposed to a bit of ignorable short-term forum noise) to change their minds on it.
 
If that was the case then why have player activity numbers risen significantly and average Steam review scores risen very slightly since the introduction of the quickstart ships?
Because the monetisation team didn't start with a engineered A class T9 in the store, they're slowly increasing the water to boiling point and most of the frogs haven't realised yet, but the good news is if enough players are willing to speak up and say they aren't happy with where it's going then things can change course and boundaries can be put in place.
 
Because the monetisation team didn't start with a engineered A class T9 in the store
No, no they didn't start with that.

The monetisation started in 2012, two years before the game even released, when Kickstarter backers could choose:
- to start the game with the Shinrarta and Sol permits granted
- to start the game with a larger ship than the Freewinder
- to obtain a 25% or 50% rebuy discount, permanently, for every ship they ever own

The progression between 2012 and 2025 has been extremely slow indeed. I expect at that rate the water will reach boiling point long after I've stopped playing Elite Dangerous for other reasons.

the good news is if enough players are willing to speak up and say they aren't happy with where it's going
The bad news is that Frontier has access to its own internal accounts, purchase levels, player activity monitors, etc. which tell them exactly how many players are happy (or at least not unhappy) with how it's going, and those will inform the decision way more than a minor forum thread that hardly any players are going to read.

If (not when, if) people start voting with their feet and wallets and a new form of ARX purchase actually causes a drop in ARX income and/or active player numbers as people respond to it that way, rather than with the occasional forum thread? Sure, at that point they'll notice, change course, etc. Have you stopped playing the game since you found out about this? No - you said at the start of the thread that you've recently started playing it again. Think about what message you're actually sending here: the message is "I don't like these microtransactions and won't buy them and might moan about them somewhere easily ignored but they don't stop me playing the game". Great, Frontier can count that as you being fine with it really.

And so it will continue at least at the current rate, and probably with gradual experiments at slightly higher levels over the next few years.
 
Wrong, Frontier are actively listening to player feedback
For over ten years.
and have been very responsive over the last few years,
Very is arguable and the response has often not been what was asked for.
unfortunately it seems some of the playerbase refuse to give criticism to the pay to win and actively advocate for it, just like in this thread! The development team are powerless against the monetisation team
Frontier Developments are a company not a hobby shop they are supposed to make money.

when a vocally loud minority of players are defending and advocating for pay to win in the game, it's gonna destroy Elite's future, players who don't want pay to win in Elite need to speak up and raise their concerns! I think the majority of normal players don't want it, just a fanatical and loud minority!
Just because you claim this about the majority of normal players does make it true after all the majority of players don’t publish what they think about the game on forums Reddit or social media so those of us who do can claim their support for our ideas or claim to be their spokesperson with little chance of being proved wrong as no one actually knows.
But it does make us sound as if we are speaking with more authority.

Edited to add. Back when I was on usenet the phase was “The lurkers support me in email”.

Still trying to work out what there is to win in this game that has enough significance/importance to be worth spending cash to win it faster
 
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No, no they didn't start with that.

The monetisation started in 2012, two years before the game even released, when Kickstarter backers could choose:
- to start the game with the Shinrarta and Sol permits granted
- to start the game with a larger ship than the Freewinder
- to obtain a 25% or 50% rebuy discount, permanently, for every ship they ever own

The progression between 2012 and 2025 has been extremely slow indeed. I expect at that rate the water will reach boiling point long after I've stopped playing Elite Dangerous for other reasons.


The bad news is that Frontier has access to its own internal accounts, purchase levels, player activity monitors, etc. which tell them exactly how many players are happy (or at least not unhappy) with how it's going, and those will inform the decision way more than a minor forum thread that hardly any players are going to read.

If (not when, if) people start voting with their feet and wallets and a new form of ARX purchase actually causes a drop in ARX income and/or active player numbers as people respond to it that way, rather than with the occasional forum thread? Sure, at that point they'll notice, change course, etc. Have you stopped playing the game since you found out about this? No - you said at the start of the thread that you've recently started playing it again. Think about what message you're actually sending here: the message is "I don't like these microtransactions and won't buy them and might moan about them somewhere easily ignored but they don't stop me playing the game". Great, Frontier can count that as you being fine with it really.

And so it will continue at least at the current rate, and probably with gradual experiments at slightly higher levels over the next few years.
You write these giant long response essays each time which I don't mind in of themselves, but the actual logic of what you're saying is very simple and very flawed, in this one you've just said:

'There's no point complaining about being able to buy late game ships now because there's always been a small degree of unfair advantage to early backers of the game so that means they're now allowed to add bigger advantages and they won't listen to community feedback unless everyone stops playing, and feedback about it must be silenced because it makes me unhappy'

I think you write these long messages to disguise your true message because actually you aren't that confident in it, 'we deserve worse pay to win because there's always been a small amount' it's a bad outlook and attitude.
How about this 'pay to win sucks, get it out the game wherever possible, I support it's removal and will advocate for alternative mtx like expansion dlc's and cosmetics'?
 
Still trying to work out what there is to win in this game that has enough significance/importance to be worth spending cash to win it faster
Someone else might be using their disposable income to skip a week's progression so they can get to the part where they're having fun. Just terrible.

With a ship that offers no advantage on other players, especially since if you're using an Arx bought ship, you're probably the sort of player who has limited gameplay time anyway, because if you had the time, you'd just pick up a youtube guide and get the credits in an evening and work on engineering after that.

Sure, it's more than just cosmetics, but to say that you're tipping any scales with a this is either ignorance or misinformation at this point.

I'll accept that there is a line to be crossed somewhere with what ships are available for Arx purchase, but this hasn't done it, not even close.
 
Frontier Developments are a company not a hobby shop they are supposed to make money.
Classic false claim from p2w defender number #294 'live service games can only be monetised with p2w', it's funny I must be imagining Sea of Thieves and No Man's Sky and hundreds of other live service games that survive on non p2w monetisation.
 
This thread is cooked 😂

Ian's messages pretty much covered everything. All that's left is talking in circles.

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