Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?
- Thread starter Agony_Aunt
- Start date
Early access itself is not inherently P2W. But it is Pay to Win a 1.4x carrying capacity advantage in the cargo hauling contest. For it to not be an advantage, all players would need simultaneous access to it.
they.will.get.there.quicker.using.the.bigger.ship.that.they.paid.for.
Time>>>Money
there's no confusion here surely?
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Every one of those things added to existing unfairness.
You're basically just telling me your own personal definition of 'win' over and over again here, which I categorically disagree with, because it's uselessly narrow.
I distinctly remember about 4k hours I played before the launch of Engineers, and 10k hours (inclusive) I played before the monetization of ships that I consider to be distinctly more fair than the periods that came after, along with several other changes that skewed things one way or the other.
I can infer, and your argument is absurd.
I can't itemize every individual contribution to the toxins in the water I drink, but I can identify the toxins and advocate they be more tightly controlled, and which industries in the area are likely culprits.
Same deal with ships for Arx. Even when I'm not watching someone who hasn't left Open launch the same Panther from the same Fleet Carrier every three minutes like clockwork, without ever making a return trip, it's a statistical inevitability that there is a contribution to the overarching game from Arx bought ships. It doesn't much matter who, or why, or what side they're on, the contribution should flatly not be there. The details are largely irrelevant. It's impossible for it to exist and not be a problem. I don't need to match the feces in the well to the well-crapper to know I don't want my source of drinking water to be more of a cesspit.
Many have played this game when it was dictated by considerably more equitable sets of rules, and even if they hadn't, I would never consider that adequate excuse to widen the gap further, which is what in-game assets for out of game money unequivocally does.
You haven't been paying attention if you think that is the largest issue with Arx bought ships.
I've already said as much, repeatedly.
Yes. And? You can still get to 75%, and how quickly someone else does it does not affect you in the slightest.
It should go without saying that the more people can haul, the higher that 75% figure will be.
Dude I'd rather not argue with you
But if you can't see why paying to get there quicker is lame then maybe we should agree to disagree
Ah, but you see, it's not actually pay to win, a thing we all agree would be bad, because you can just do [steadily moving goalpost thing] so you now win!
That's been the last 15 pages. Essentially people either accepting it is P2W, or refusing to accept it because they don't want to feel the ick of doing a P2W.
But it'll still be well within the range achievable with other ships, so what's the problem?
No, I really, really can't. What other people do in the game and how quickly they earn credits means nothing to me. I don't see why anyone is upset about this.Dude I'd rather not argue with you
But if you can't see why paying to get there quicker is lame then maybe we should agree to disagree
The problem is that the slope continues the become slippery, whomst can say what the next bit in the progression will be?
I have more respect for those who paid for PCMK2 early access and accepted it's P2W nature than those who tapdance around the term while insisting on "what do you win??!?".
Yeah, it's called a slippery slop fallacy for a reason. If such a progression were to happen, I would be right there protesting against it alongside you. But since there is no evidence at all of it actually happening, I see no cause for alarm.
What I mostly see is a bunch of people being mad that some folks are having a (very) slightly easier time getting a cool reward than they are.
All the times I have heard of people arguing against the slippery slope and calling it a fallacy all seem to have no knowledge of history or have never observed human nature.
I have the Panther, I still feel like its pay to winnish due to the circumstances of the CG and additional rewards.
I bought some arx so I can do some cosmetics, bought the earth globe bobble head and realized I didn't like anything else offered. So I got the Panther, no regrets.
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Nonsense.
What about people who haven't made the Imperial grade, so no Cutter?
Or haven't made enough money even for Type-9?
Shall we gimp down the contest to Hauler only, so no one would have an advantage?
A CG is by default a competition against other players.
You will need to stay in the top 75% to get extra Cargo racks for free on top with the ones you gain by delivering just 1 ton of needed commodity.
Lets say for example the panther can haul 1200 and a cutter 600 then the panther owner needs only one round to deliver 1200t while the cutter user is needing 2 rounds, so much more time and effort.
If the needed delivered tons raise up to reach top 75% then the cutter user must spend at least double the amount of time then someone that has a panther.
So yes gaining additional free cargo racks while in the top 75% is winning them over 25% of the people that did also deliver something.
I dont care how much credits someone has, but next example when doin colonisation you can also deliver faster an then hop to the next system.
With extra money you made more in the same time you could also buy materials needed to engineer or unlock.
That will save you even more time not gathering them yourself.
Saving time to do things in game is gaining a huge advantage in games and often destroys them later. Look at all that bots and item sellers in a lot MMORPGs.
Saving time is the number 1 reason why ppl spend extra real money on games.
It actually affects me in many ways and at the moment in the time i have to spend to stay in the 75%.
It sure is no big deal but its pay2win.
I find it a bit amusing so many people are paying for ships just to keep the lights on in Fdev.
Frankly it's a bit disingenuous to Fdev that they are living hand to mouth and are glad to receive the breadcrumbs from arx so they can feed the hamsters.
Personally I find it questionable that they chose to up the arx( after increases in cost and also downgrading of arx value ) for a larger hauler and then put out add a hauler CG two days later.
They could have had the CG before the launch ? And everything would have been hunky dory.
So the question is there an advantage for paying for the new ship ?
8 trips cutter 5824
8 trips PC (EA) 8800 ish so 3000 more in same time.
I would have to make an additional 4 trips in my cutter to match.
I'm not a fan of how Fdev work ( consoles) but even I was surprised and disappointed at this, I mean it does look Sus doesn't it ?
Frankly it's a bit disingenuous to Fdev that they are living hand to mouth and are glad to receive the breadcrumbs from arx so they can feed the hamsters.
Personally I find it questionable that they chose to up the arx( after increases in cost and also downgrading of arx value ) for a larger hauler and then put out add a hauler CG two days later.
They could have had the CG before the launch ? And everything would have been hunky dory.
So the question is there an advantage for paying for the new ship ?
8 trips cutter 5824
8 trips PC (EA) 8800 ish so 3000 more in same time.
I would have to make an additional 4 trips in my cutter to match.
I'm not a fan of how Fdev work ( consoles) but even I was surprised and disappointed at this, I mean it does look Sus doesn't it ?
No, it isn't. This is PvP vs PvE all over again. Some people are competitive and are getting upset at others gaining a perceived advantage, and some of us aren't and simply don't care.
That will not be difficult. As of this moment, it would take three runs in my Cutter to reach top 75%. If I care about staying there, I'm going to be doing a lot more than three runs anyway. I have, in fact, done 18 in my Panther Clipper. If I'd done that in my Cutter, I would have delivered 13,104 tons, which would put me in the top 25%, which, hey, what do you know, is where I am anyway. It really makes no difference other than credits.
The problem is that it's inflated the target figure, requiring more trips, especially for those who don't have access to the newest and largest. Inflationary mechanisms tends to do that.
The degree to which it's a problem is extremely subjective. That it will still exclude some people who would not otherwise have been excluded, probably in favor of those who were willing to pay, and that some significant fraction of people will consider that to be a problem, is almost a given and should come as a surprise to no one.
Not this reason.
The core facet of the informal fallacy is unintended consequences leading to an undesirable result. There is nothing unintentional about the social aspects of market engineering. There is nothing undesirable about pay-to-win from Frontier's perspective, other than the term itself, which carries negative connotations for some people. The clearly intended and desired outcome is to get the community to buy ships with Arx by incentivizing the use of ships of ships bought with Arx.
Some people might call it a slippery slope, but the overarching trajectory of the Arx store has been more of a 'foot-in-the-door' tactic, which is known to be broadly effective.
25% of participants are going to fail.
Ok, if you dont know what competition is.
It does not matter how easy it is to reach top 75%, you can reach it faster with a pay2win panther.
Im not upset, maybe dissapointed.
Its just pay2win added to the game and thats something Frontier told us they would not do.
In General i feel more sorry for the new players, they will never do the progression we did in small ships 1 years ago.
The pay2win ppl wont normally stay long in the game, because they want things fast and ED is often only slow.
Yeah so a good planned cash grab by Frontier, they lost much more with this move as they can think of now.
ED is a pay2win game now, even if the effect is very tiny and only for a short amount of time. But the reputation ist lost.