Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?

[Cmdr Iron Dave]

I just see this all as FDev stepping up to create a reason to keep the servers running. 10 years+ or a game is amazing at the moment. Millions of people complain that the multiplayer servers in various games get turned off when they got there money's worth by paying for a game, but not forever.

There are complaints about greed. But I argue that the greed is from the consumers.
More and more we want something for nothing. Downloading various games on their mobiles/Epic/Steam for free or on sale and complaining for adverts. These games are created and then ran by people who need to be paid.

I am willing to pay to play. And if I get a better ship that's a bonus. I just can't afford to. I thank FDev for an innovative to try to keep the game going when there would be thousands of complaints if they stopped making enough money for it to be viable.

Anyone who bought the PCII, Corsair etc. paid to name stations, bought pointless paint jobs or Odyssey outfits... I thank you for keeping my game running!

 

[Cmdr Iron Dave]

As I said a few days ago, it'll be interesting to see how this CG turns out.

I've had a couple of sessions this weekend.
Spent the first one loading up my FC with 22k tonnes of stuff.
2nd session I started delivering to Minerva.
Took 3000t to get into the 75% and 7000t to get into the 50%.
Still got around 15kt of stuff in my FC which I'll offload gradually and then, perhaps, go and fill up my FC again at some point.

Judging from the system chat, there's a lot of people who're delivering big quantities (>20kt), and they're all flying PC2s.

I wouldn't be surprised if the threshold for top 75% does end up being a bit higher than the usual half-dozen delivieries.

But this is what I mean. You don't need a PCII, or a fleet carrier. Fleet carriers mean you need to do 2 docks for every one just flying to stations. A run a day on average, and a push at the end will do the job.
There is no need to fill the carrier in 27 runs including 54 landings followed by the same to offload it. If you want to hit high on the CG, fair game. But the top player must have done almost 60 runs a day in a PCII. That's dedication and time nobody else has. They''l beat you in a Type-8 because that would still be over 80000 ton!

OO, and in a sidey they'd have over 3000 units and still be in the top 75%.

Play to win I say, whover they are!

 

[Stealthie]

I just see this all as FDev stepping up to create a reason to keep the servers running. 10 years+ or a game is amazing at the moment. Millions of people complain that the multiplayer servers in various games get turned off when they got there money's worth by paying for a game, but not forever.

I get the feeling that, over the last year or so, FDev have re-evaluated the potential of ED as a revenue stream.
Previously, they were still clinging onto the idea that they might be able to turn it into the next Fortnite or Minecraft but they seem to have realised that, more modestly, a loyal player-base will keep on spending money on ED in return for reasonable quality updates so it's worth keeping it going.

There are complaints about greed. But I argue that the greed is from the consumers.
More and more we want something for nothing. Downloading various games on their mobiles/Epic/Steam for free or on sale and complaining for adverts. These games are created and then ran by people who need to be paid.

Absolutely.

It's easy to look back and say "But, we got the Krait Mk2 and the Phantom for free so why should we pay for ships now?!"... while completely overlooking the fact that they don't have to pay for them.
They can simply be patient, wait for them to leave Early Acces and, perhaps, say a quiet "Thank You" to all the people who have paid for Early Access and, thus, fund the continuation of ED.

The only real issue is, perhaps, that FDev need to learn how to be a bit more "diplomatic" about the way they integrate Arx-Stuff into the game.
On the one hand, I'm sure the Accounts Department loves the idea of introducing an Arx-thing into the game and then immediately providing some in-game content where the Arx-thing will yield an advantage.
OTOH, I suspect it's probably making the Community-Relations people wince a bit.

 

[Cmdr Iron Dave]

On the one hand, I'm sure the Accounts Department loves the idea of introducing an Arx-thing into the game and then immediately providing some in-game content where the Arx-thing will yield an advantage.
OTOH, I suspect it's probably making the Community-Relations people wince a bit.

100%, I said this to the guys in my squadron. How many people who were on the fence about paying got pushed over by this.

Yep, diplomacy would be useful but consumers require a product to consume and it costs to continue producing and we've had it stale and free for so long.

Are the same people complaining about the lack of content the same that are now moaning that the content needs to be paid for?

 

[CMDR Rethalis]

As I said a few days ago, it'll be interesting to see how this CG turns out.

I've had a couple of sessions this weekend.
Spent the first one loading up my FC with 22k tonnes of stuff.
2nd session I started delivering to Minerva.
Took 3000t to get into the 75% and 7000t to get into the 50%.
Still got around 15kt of stuff in my FC which I'll offload gradually and then, perhaps, go and fill up my FC again at some point.

Judging from the system chat, there's a lot of people who're delivering big quantities (>20kt), and they're all flying PC2s.

I wouldn't be surprised if the threshold for top 75% does end up being a bit higher than the usual half-dozen delivieries.

The threshold will be higher, I have delivered 35K with the PC and in top 25%.

I hope I don't have to do any more runs to stay above 75%. Now using it to stack delivery missions in sol for federal rank grind.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

At the risk of taking the question more seriously than it was intended, by achieving things and, as a result, denying those things to other people.

The second part isn't necessary and the first part isn't clear enough.

Again, we can look at single player games that have P2W elements.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I just see this all as FDev stepping up to create a reason to keep the servers running. 10 years+ or a game is amazing at the moment. Millions of people complain that the multiplayer servers in various games get turned off when they got there money's worth by paying for a game, but not forever.

There are complaints about greed. But I argue that the greed is from the consumers.
More and more we want something for nothing. Downloading various games on their mobiles/Epic/Steam for free or on sale and complaining for adverts. These games are created and then ran by people who need to be paid.

I am willing to pay to play. And if I get a better ship that's a bonus. I just can't afford to. I thank FDev for an innovative to try to keep the game going when there would be thousands of complaints if they stopped making enough money for it to be viable.

Anyone who bought the PCII, Corsair etc. paid to name stations, bought pointless paint jobs or Odyssey outfits... I thank you for keeping my game running!

I don't see anyone arguing against the need to continue funding FD in some way to keep development going and the lights on.

The question is about how FD do that.

 

[Darth Ender]

It's only a question for people who ignore paid expansions' gatekeeping content since horizons and the fact that a paid ship that does nothing but add a bit of cargo space in a game where existing ships can handle more than enough cargo to unbalance space trucking already.., where the goal of that activity is something to repeat forever in either a never ending cycle or to get credits ...which can easily be gotten in insane quantities with existing ships.

It's a stupid question for people needing drama.

 

[Sublime]

Some of the people who're in the top 75% will be there because purchasing early access to a PC2 allowed them to deliver more than they'd otherwise have been able to.

That’s a ridiculous statement. The amount you need to be in the 75% is so low, if anyone is not in there, it’s not because they don’t have a PC2.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

That’s a ridiculous statement. The amount you need to be in the 75% is so low, if anyone is not in there, it’s not because they don’t have a PC2.

True, it may be they just have a few hours to play each week... although having a PC might make the difference for them as to whether they do make the 75% or not.

Still, this is only part of the overall issue.

 

[Mr Lindsay]

The threshold will be higher, I have delivered 35K with the PC and in top 25%.

I hope I don't have to do any more runs to stay above 75%. Now using it to stack delivery missions in sol for federal rank grind.

I swear people don't know how percentages work.

Every tonne you deliver once you are over the 75% is irrelevant to how many tonnes it takes to get into the 75%. It's only relevant to whether you will stay above the 75% as that number changes.

What matters is how many contributors there are and how many tonnes the LOWEST 25% have delivered.
Every commander that logs on and delivers 1 tonne to get the minimum rewards drags that 75% number down, and increases the number of participants that will receive the 75% rewards (by 3/4 of a commander).

True, it may be they just have a few hours to play each week... although having a PC might make the difference for them as to whether they do make the 75% or not.

Still, this is only part of the overall issue.

If you have "a few" hours to play, you will 100% make the top 75% without the Panther Clipper. Any of the big cargo ships can make the cut in less than an hour.
The difference, as previously discussed, is going to be 2 runs at most. Maybe 20 minutes if you aren't rushing.

 

[Rat Catcher]

The amount you need to be in the 75% is so low, if anyone is not in there, it’s not because they don’t have a PC2.

I won't be in the top 75% and I do have a Panther Kitten...

Are the same people complaining about the lack of content the same that are now moaning that the content needs to be paid for?

That is a question that you are not supposed to ask...

There are some folk unhappy because they parted with a sum of real money to help fund the initial development of the game and don't consider thay have had value from it, so decline spending more.

Others bought the game and see no reason to spend any more money on it.

Others just cannot afford to spend even more money to have the latest shiny on release.

All are valid reasons - but, like you, I do wonder how many of the current crowd were also complaining about 'maintenence mode' just a couple of years ago.

At least the ones who are so bothered with this P2W concept can refuse to spend a single penny and buy the assets for in-game credits in just a few short weeks and feel justified that they had nothing to do with such an underhand practise, and, if, in the fullness of time FD decide that raising money, as a business, by selling shiny toys for special game currency, is improper and stop doing so, they can gleefully announce that they 'won' as the game slips into maintenence mode once more.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I swear people don't know how percentages work.

Every tonne you deliver once you are over the 75% is irrelevant to how many tonnes it takes to get into the 75%. It's only relevant to whether you will stay above the 75% as that number changes.

What matters is how many contributors there are and how many tonnes the LOWEST 25% have delivered.
Every commander that logs on and delivers 1 tonne to get the minimum rewards drags that 75% number down, and increases the number of participants that will receive the 75% rewards (by 3/4 of a commander).

If you have "a few" hours to play, you will 100% make the top 75% without the Panther Clipper. Any of the big cargo ships can make the cut in less than an hour.
The difference, as previously discussed, is going to be 2 runs at most. Maybe 20 minutes if you aren't rushing.

That 20 minutes could be make or break for someone.

 

[kofeyh]

True, it may be they just have a few hours to play each week... although having a PC might make the difference for them as to whether they do make the 75% or not.

Still, this is only part of the overall issue.

The (as of last night) top commander was in the instance, when I swung by to drop off a load, and indicated they were flying directly back and forth. Not using a carrier. Something I'd have not expected, and it was a reminder one shouldn't assume because sometimes the reality is more complicated.

There's a lesson there. It's very easy to assume a scenario, and believe it so strongly, that it becomes impossible to consider other factors, even if they might well be at play.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

i keep waiting for the hand of Braben to come down and add a 0 onto the numbers needed to make sure the CG lasts 2 weeks. 4 weeks (sorry typo)

if they do then i reckon the numbers to get to that 75% will go up even more......... which is then likely to encourage those on the fence to open their purse. As it stands now i hope i am safely in the 75% but if its extended i will have to go back to it, which considering local produce will likely be exhausted by then will mean the jump range of my T9 will also become a limiting factor..

 

[kofeyh]

i keep waiting for the hand of Braben to come down and add a 0 onto the numbers needed to make sure the CG lasts 2 weeks.

if they do then i reckon the numbers to get to that 75% will go up even more......... which is then likely to encourage those on the fence to open their purse. As it stands now i hope i am safely in the 75% but if its extended i will have to go back to it.

The CG is a month long, it will almost certainly be extended, based on Frontier's previous actions. If they want it to go for a month, the total will need to change.

 

[kofeyh]

That 20 minutes could be make or break for someone.

Over a day, absolutely. A week, perhaps. A month? If one cannot find 20 minutes in an entire month, then whatever ship is used becomes virtually irrelevant and I'd argue fixating on the game or how other people play probably isn't what they spend the majority of their time on (such as a 19+ page thread, for example).

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?

I would say to answer your question in the title that the CG "Research Outpost Appeal" of late December 2015 was a significantly more clear-cut case (and there have been many others since with similar setups).

It was shortly after the initial Horizons release, and the hand-in destination was the surface port of Nelson Works in Dahan. So, not just "pay to be able to haul somewhat faster" but "pay to be able to participate at all".

I believe that the Horizons expansion - especially the Engineering component - met your P2W definition of

When looking at P2W its worth comparing two people who are of the same skill level, have the same amount of play time, etc, the only difference being is one of them opened their wallet and the other didn't, then ask the question, did the person who opened their wallet gain an advantage denied to the other person?

while it was being sold separately, so I'm fairly sure this CG won't even make the top ten on that basis.

if they do then i reckon the numbers to get to that 75% will go up even more.........

Top 75% doesn't tend to rise anywhere near as fast as the total, but it does appear to be a competed-over threshold by how large it is compared with the not-much-higher top 50% threshold.

It could plausibly end up close to 10kT by the end of the four weeks, certainly.

 

[Rat Catcher]

i keep waiting for the hand of Braben to come down and add a 0 onto the numbers needed to make sure the CG lasts 2 weeks.

Four weeks, isn't it?

The CG can complete this week, as many folk are participating and are busy moving cargo in whatever ship they choose.

If another tier or two are added to ensure that it lasts the entire 4 weeks, then still 25% will only get one set of magic cargo racks, and 75% will get, "shock horror!!", a massive 2 of each. And the credits payout will increase, even at the 100% mark (although folk tell me that credits mean nothing - whilst sitting on tens of billions...) so it benefits everyone, regardless if they deliver in a Sidey or PC II.

It is the start of the school holidays in the UK, traditionally "Factory Fortnight", so some players being on holiday for another week or so is a possibility, so forcing the CG to run for its full 4 weeks is fairer...

Of course, the player who didn't have that 20 minutes is going to be a 'loser', regardless.

 

[kofeyh]

I would say to answer your question in the title that the CG "Research Outpost Appeal" of late December 2015 was a significantly more clear-cut case (and there have been many others since with similar setups).

It was shortly after the initial Horizons release, and the hand-in destination was the surface port of Nelson Works in Dahan. So, not just "pay to be able to haul somewhat faster" but "pay to be able to participate at all".

I had forgotten about that. Also the Cobra Mk IV that was a pre-order (for Horizons) and has never been released (there might be some legal considerations for that one, but different topic for a different thread). Given the absolute pantsing they got for both, I am somewhat less concerned that they'd be truly stupid enough to do that again, which is the p2w whole slippery slope being argued breathlessly.

It's happened before, the developer got absolutely thumped for it, and I don't know they'd have the appetite to do it again. If they do, a whole lot of people who are currently (mostly) fine about the Arx store are suddenly not going to be and they (Frontier) will be taught the lesson again.

So I am not going to lose sleep over it.