Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[eeps]

Seeded baps are > naked baps

lol .. arent the seeds there to make the bun a little less sweet? I know if you eat just the top bun from a cheeseburger its sweet like a biscuit ..

If I am not feeling sociable and want to blow off some steam, or if the boss is on the internet and sucking my bandwidth I will play in solo, if I want to catch up with old school mates from way back when and just natter whilst doing a bit of money making I can play in groups, and if I am "on it" and fancy fully concentrating and meeting randoms I go into all.

.. yeah +1, this shows functional versatility of the game and I too enjoy those options. But alas, this is where all the angst is coming from it seems. Not sure what the outcome (if any) will be ..

 

[TheNameIsJambo]

But you are proposing a solution to a problem that does not exist. The current system is working as designed.

Yes, but it's segregating players from having the full online experience, which has been tagged [from pre-release and day-one] as the direction this game is headed. A lot of people will play Solo, because that's what they want to do.. But they'd be pleasantly surprised at how enjoyable this game is played online [which they have to do anyway]. It feels more exciting and alive. This game was flagged as an MMO - Then it was removed - but if FDev removed the option, took the choice away, yes, there would be moaning, but people would get over it when the game has realised its' potential.

As I see it, the game is still finding its' feet. It's only weeks old, I wouldn't grumble if they scrapped Solo - Just as long as they opened up other in-game options to offer a similar experience.

In a perfect world and with the introduction of Wings, I'd like to see only one mode: Play. Then the CMDR can set their own PvP flag in the System screen [PvP On/Off]. There could be a visual notification of the PvP/PvE flag upon their vessel scan [as opposed to having to check the contacts screen]. Overall, traders can do their thing with no human threat - the online->solo equivalent - yet they'd still be ensured that there's plenty of humans around; making the universe feel alive, but it removes the hassle of being Interdicted by every Eagle, Cobra and Viper that think they know what they're doing. Then, the risk-takers and pirates [or big cojone traders] could interdict and battle each other all day.

Probably not a perfect solution, but forcing everyone online at the same time is what I expected. I see Solo mode as a throwback to the Rose Tinted glasses wearing Elite backers. I don't think that mode will go away, anytime soon, but that's just my 2 pence.

At the minute, whilst playing Open, I feel that I can only see CMDRs when flying in Alliance space, or as it's now known: Pirate Space. Where's everyone else? Ah that's right: Solo. They're all grinding away to get that Asp or Python, without having the hassle of human interdiction.. Then when they get their dream ship, they hang around in Alliance space, waiting for that elusive rare-human to show up in a T6 to pirate.

That's what the game has come down to, as far as I can tell.. I just hope it changes!

NB.
The PvP flag wouldn't matter if you're in a warzone. It's a free-for-all.

 

[Drunk Si]

Wow, can't wait for that lesson, best get into open. Dare not try to play the game I want to, use any skill I may have and try to escape, put me in a pen and milk me, lord forbid I play the way I want to in open.

Submit you cows to the preying wolves, give them one of your legs or your calf so that you may survive lol.

Thanks to CMDR Rumi for posting his CMDR name in sig, I will be adding to my ignore list at my earliest convenience (yes I will be in open again, but 1 less for you to see), all the people who think its fine to "educate" traders please post yours too, I promise I will unblock you........... when FD have wings working well & implement a balanced system of sticky, larger bounty's on CMDR's with the "murder" status.

Well it's not meant to entice you play in open, I'm personally of the opinion that solo just shouldn't exist. Solo invalidates the pirate playstyle. You have wolves stalking lambs that can, at any time, run away to a sanctuary. From the perspective of a trader you wouldn't be playing to get mugged, but the thrill that comes of an escape or the panic during a robbery... the adversity you would face would make it more of a game than just going back and fourth without any adversity.

Or, in other words, to boost your ego and not much else.

I fail to see how, after this kind of post, anyone wishing to make money via trading would actually want to play in Open...

I'm not playing as a pirate, yet, but I don't really see how it's an ego boost. Someone doesn't cooperate, they get smacked about. They still cause problems, they get blown up. If you were a hostage in a bank robbery situation you wouldn't have the option of just saying to your captors,

"this is all well and good but I don't have time for this right now, I'm going"

and if they have a gun to your head you want to cooperate. If you don't cooperate, if you try to leave, you try to call someone or set off an alarm you would get cracked round the face with a rifle butt and if you kept being a nuisance you'd get shot.

If a trader is uncooperative and tries to run away and waste the pirate's time killing them and costing them more than they would have lost by just dropping some cargo sends a clear message. You would have been better off cooperating.

 

[Jockey79]

Yes, but it's segregating players from having the full online experience, which has been tagged [from pre-release and day-one] as the direction this game is headed. A lot of people will play Solo, because that's what they want to do.. But they'd be pleasantly surprised at how enjoyable this game is played online [which they have to do anyway]. It feels more exciting and alive. This game was flagged as an MMO - Then it was removed - but if FDev removed the option, took the choice away, yes, there would be moaning, but people would get over it when the game has realised its' potential.

As I see it, the game is still finding its' feet. It's only weeks old, I wouldn't grumble if they scrapped Solo - Just as long as they opened up other in-game options to offer a similar experience.

In a perfect world and with the introduction of Wings, I'd like to see only one mode: Play. Then the CMDR can set their own PvP flag in the System screen [PvP On/Off]. There could be a visual notification of the PvP/PvE flag upon their vessel scan [as opposed to having to check the contacts screen]. Overall, traders can do their thing with no human threat - the online->solo equivalent - yet they'd still be ensured that there's plenty of humans around; making the universe feel alive, but it removes the hassle of being Interdicted by every Eagle, Cobra and Viper that think they know what they're doing. Then, the risk-takers and pirates [or big cojone traders] could interdict and battle each other all day.

Probably not a perfect solution, but forcing everyone online at the same time is what I expected. I see Solo mode as a throwback to the Rose Tinted glasses wearing Elite backers. I don't think that mode will go away, anytime soon, but that's just my 2 pence.

At the minute, whilst playing Open, I feel that I can only see CMDRs when flying in Alliance space, or as it's now known: Pirate Space. Where's everyone else? Ah that's right: Solo. They're all grinding away to get that Asp or Python, without having the hassle of human interdiction.. Then when they get their dream ship, they hang around in Alliance space, waiting for that elusive rare-human to show up in a T6 to pirate.

That's what the game has come down to, as far as I can tell.. I just hope it changes!

NB.
The PvP flag wouldn't matter if you're in a warzone. It's a free-for-all.

You've obviously decided to ignore what everyone has posted and mode some wild assumptions, so lets go through it point by point for you.

1) "segregating players from having the full online experience" - All players get access to the full online experience designed by FD. You've confused social and player interactions with the idea of the game.
2) "It feels more exciting and alive." - To you, not everyone bought the game for the reasons you did.
3) "I wouldn't grumble if they scrapped Solo" - Some people bought the game to play on their own, or do not have the internet connection to play outside of solo. Try to think of others needs as well please.
4) "I see Solo mode as a throwback" - So why are you here? Did you not research what you bought? All the information on the was public knowledge (see my above post, which I will copy as you've ignored it).
5) "I feel that I can only see CMDRs when" - Massive assumption, could be your firewall, your router, your internet connection, the matchmaking service (this is a P2P connection base - lots can go wrong).
6) "Where's everyone else? Ah that's right: Solo" - Again massive assumption. Apart from (5) have you considered, you may be looking in the wrong place? I know Lave has been really busy for over a week.

And the public information you've ignored when buying the game;

From the Kickstarter;
*And the best part - you can do all this online with your friends, or other "Elite" pilots like yourself, or even alone. The choice is yours...*
*you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends? Cooperate on adventures or chase your friends down to get that booty. The game will work in a seamless, lobby-less way, with the ability to rendezvous with friends
*Play it your way*
Your reputation is affected by your personal choices. Play the game your way: dangerous pirate, famous explorer or notorious assassin - the choice is yours to make. Take on missions and affect the world around you, alone or with your friends.*
*You simply play the game, and depending on your configuration (your choice) *
*We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will,*

From the forum archives;
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6300

All Players Group– Players in this group will be matched with each other as much as possible to ensure as many human players can meet and play together
Private Group – Players in this group will only be matched with other players in the same private group
Solo Group – Players in this group won’t be matched with anyone else ever (effectively a private group with no one else invited)
(All by a Lead Designer)

Also DB on Multiplayer and Grouping and Single (01:00 - 02:01)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5JY...kuz6s&index=18

DB on "Griefing" and "Griefers"
(Listen out for the part where FD can move them in to a private group of just each other)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5hqjxmf4M

Rededit Topic on "unusual event for players to come against players" (With Twitch Video)
http://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangero...ayers_to_come/

Direct Twitch Link; (Note DB use "Occasonial" and "unusual" regarding players interacting)
http://www.twitch.tv/egx/b/571962295?t=69m00s

Also, MMO does not mean "social" (It means lots of people connected)

A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet. MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ.


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Solo invalidates the pirate playstyle.

Really?

Not what DB said in one of the videos I've linked - go through my post, you'll learn where you went wrong when buying the game.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

As I see it, the game is still finding its' feet. It's only weeks old, I wouldn't grumble if they scrapped Solo - Just as long as they opened up other in-game options to offer a similar experience.

Hey Jambo, I presume you are from AVForums....

Whilst you would be fine with it, and your ideas may make sense for another game, it isnt what was advertised for Elite.... Whilst you may not grumble so much if they scrapped solo a great many of us would, and the idea of a PvP on/off flag has been suggested and decided against in the past due to it not making sense when flying around having someone with a magic shield. Better just not to see them in your instance at the time.

Elite IS still an MMO now as much as it ever was (and to those who say it isnt one, well it reviews well here http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/...us-OpenEnded-Vast-Procedurally-Generated.html) But FD (Wisely I think) have dialed back on the MMO claims due to the (incorrect imo) assumptions some automatically make when they hear MMO.

There is also a worry that a PvP flag could be exploitable (though I agree there could be ways around it if elite was that game) in so far as you have PvP off, then wait till your target is not looking, turn PvP on and attack.

Like I said, imo its not that your suggestions have no merit for gaming in general, its just that it is not the route ED has chosen, and to change now imo would upset far to many people who are enjoying it exactly as it is, and perhaps only bought in because of it..... Elite for instance is the only MMO I have any interest in playing, and its structure is a part of that. (and I play in ALL for the most part!)

Not everyone who choses not to play in ALL all of the time are ignorant of its potential..... they just maybe cant use it properly, or do not want to

 

[Drunk Si]

Really?

Not what DB said in one of the videos I've linked - go through my post, you'll learn where you went wrong when buying the game.

I've read it. No need to be so defensive about your precious solo play, it's in the game and that isn't going to change regardless of what I or anyone else thinks but I don't really care what anyone says, Braben or otherwise, if you are playing as a pirate and you want to prey on traders that can at any time decide "oh but I don't want to be mugged" then that's just dumb and it does invalidate that play style.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I've read it. No need to be so defensive about your precious solo play, it's in the game and that isn't going to change regardless of what I or anyone else thinks but I don't really care what anyone says, Braben or otherwise, if you are playing as a pirate and you want to prey on traders that can at any time decide "oh but I don't want to be mugged" then that's just dumb and it does invalidate that play style.

it certainly dents the playstyle of a pirate who only wants to pirate humans, I will agree with you there.... but then that is a playstyle which the game was always going to actively try to dissuade, and certainly not support. Elite is meant to encourage co-operative play, mostly against AI, and in that sense piracy is viable in all modes.. (its still possible tho, and there are indeed some pirates who play the role affectively )

 

[Robert Maynard]

Sure, considering the scale of the universe the distinction of open and solo seems absolutely redundant since there is enough 'empty space' to wander off to for everyone.
Hence, getting rid of those different modes will not harm people who want to play alone and, likewise, will put the solo vs open discussion to rest.

Solo is as redundant as open is. All game modes are simply different settings on the matchmaking system. I understand that it is the fervent wish of those who wish to corral all players in open for the other two game modes to be removed - it's just that though - a wish - Frontier is very unlikely to grant that wish as it would affect many players who have no interest in open.

As I mentioned on my other post, allowing players to switch between single player and open play is a design flaw and creates imbalance to the game that only provides unfair advantage to those who only play in Open Play mode.

In your opinion, of course, other opinions may differ. As Frontier included the three modes and the ability to switch between them at will in the stated game design from the beginning of the Kickstarter, over two years ago, I would hazard a wild guess that Frontier's opinion differs from yours - if they held the same opinion, the feature would never have been included in the first place.

Where is switching between the Single Player mode and Open Play on the quote you provided? GROUPS and GAME MODES are 2 different things.

Thats why when you group up with friends (which is called PRIVATE GROUP) you dont encounter any other players right?

I still dont see anywhere that says "CHANGING GAME MODES"

Groups form the basis of the three game modes: solo = group of one; private group = restricted access group; open = a group that is open to all.

I think a lot of players are confused.

It's just simple:

PRIVATE group - You find a friend, and go on a private group so you don't see any other players but you still play in OPEN PLAY.
Single Player Mode - You play by yourself, no other human interaction.

Based on the Dev's plan, they acknowledge that a lot of the players don't like being killed and some players think that every pirate is a griefer. So they allow you to find a friend and go on PRIVATE GROUP so you can play in OPEN PLAY without other players interfering you.

Switching to Single Player MODE is a totally different thing. Don't confuse yourself or other players

I do not think that it is the rest of the players that are confused.

Switching to a private group with two members of whom only one is playing is functionally identical to switching to a private group with one member, oneself which is, in turn, functionally identical to switching to solo.

Players have been granted the freedom of choice as to which game mode they play in on a session by session basis - players need offer no reasons for their choices - there is no committee to judge whether the reasons are "valid" or not. Again, Frontier has told us all to "play the game how you want to" and has given us three game modes and the group switching feature to enable us to do exactly that.

 

[CMDR Bansidhe]

it certainly dents the playstyle of a pirate who only wants to pirate humans, I will agree with you there.... but then that is a playstyle which the game was always going to actively try to dissuade, and certainly not support. Elite is meant to encourage co-operative play, mostly against AI, and in that sense piracy is viable in all modes.. (its still possible tho, and there are indeed some pirates who play the role affectively )

"For the less scrupulous - Why buy a hold full of cargo, when you can pirate it from someone else? Why go to the bother of exploring a system to sell the data, when you can simply take it from them by force?"

Regardless of what the developers said in the past this is what they say now on the game website. I think you have it wrong.

 

[Spacejanitor]

I've touched this in other threads so I'm not going to go in full detail. But posters like good @Jockey79 here, while otherwise write carefully thought out posts with good arguments seem to be blind to their own double standards. How can you argue against someones views on how they want their game to be by saying other people have their right to play it their way as well.

Bottom line, those who want the full Open ("PvP") experience do NOT get it at the moment. And that's a huge problem. Those who want Open play to be separated don't want it for the spite of it, or to punish players who enjoy/have to/choose to/.../ play solo or group, they want it so they can have the balance they feel the game and the game mode deserves. There is no way you can say that Open mode isn't affected by this game mode hopping.

PvE players have their own secured PvE game modes but can dip into PvP as much as they want with the CR they make there, Open players on the other hand are stuck with this heap of bile where you are forced to go play solo or otherwise you're shooting yourself in the leg. How the hell can you justify that? And in addition to having to tolerate this crap in the game we get the "holier than thou" treatment on the forums.

I can understand people who want to swap between solo, group and open, but you who do that please understand us who have a problem with that. To be perfectly honest, separating open from the private modes at this point would create such a storm it's never going to happen. Instead, all pure open players unite to get our own CLOSED public pvp ruleset game mode.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

I've read it. No need to be so defensive about your precious solo play, it's in the game and that isn't going to change regardless of what I or anyone else thinks but I don't really care what anyone says, Braben or otherwise, if you are playing as a pirate and you want to prey on traders that can at any time decide "oh but I don't want to be mugged" then that's just dumb and it does invalidate that play style.

I can't put my finger on it, but something about your posts wants me to come round with a standard issue neuralyzer...

The thing about Piracy apart from the ability to obtain cargo from your marks and to sell it, is the skill to not milk your cows dry and leave them dead in the water (If you will excuse the mixed metaphors.) As you rightly surmised, people who feel grieved by other players' behaviour (may not be yours) can disappear in to Solo or Groups. This means that these people who are milking your cows and sending them away smarting are actually ruining your play style.

Remember also that solo is not the only option to escape from pirates. There are plenty of systems out there that don't see the likes of you because it's not profitable to hunt in systems where you only see one or two EPF pilots a day and are still very profitable for trading.

So my question to you, Mr Uppity Pirate Sir, (that's the feeling your posts give me ) is what are you going to do about it? All those nasty gankers, campers and PKers out there are stealing your fun. What are you, as a dedicated Pirate, going to do about that?

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<snip>

It's very simple. Go create your own group like Mobius did. In fact I am sure during Gamma there was a PVP group... Mobius has over 2500 members. Now I wonder where that PVP group got to???

 

[ianw]

I've read it. No need to be so defensive about your precious solo play, it's in the game and that isn't going to change regardless of what I or anyone else thinks but I don't really care what anyone says, Braben or otherwise, if you are playing as a pirate and you want to prey on traders that can at any time decide "oh but I don't want to be mugged" then that's just dumb and it does invalidate that play style.

It's a difficult thing to balance I guess.

Once you understand how the game works (currently at least) it's not difficult to avoid pirates be they NPC or player without switching to solo mode or logging out. Even in the most populated areas.

If you took group switching away I'd bet the population of open would dwindle significantly. Obviously some people will never have any interest in open - but many will give it a try once they find their feet - providing they don't have to start all over again.

 

[Spacejanitor]

It's very simple. Go create your own group like Mobius did. In fact I am sure during Gamma there was a PVP group... Mobius has over 2500 members. Now I wonder where that PVP group got to???

Did I say something about holier than thou...?

Mobius' group is a good example of how a pure open PvE mode should exist as well (change solo to open PvE and be done with it..). It's quite clear that the current game modes are insufficient.

EDIT: It took me a while to understand how pointless your suggestion of a PvP group is How would that work exactly? If I spot a Hauler we kick him out? What prevents somebody to go grind some CR in solo and come back in a pimped Viper? The thing is, PvE doesn't need to be regulated as it is already regulated by the game mechanics, PvP on the other hand needs strict regulations for it to be fair and balanced.

 

[Jockey79]

"For the less scrupulous - Why buy a hold full of cargo, when you can pirate it from someone else? Why go to the bother of exploring a system to sell the data, when you can simply take it from them by force?"

Regardless of what the developers said in the past this is what they say now on the game website. I think you have it wrong.

Nope, you are the one choosing to ignore you can pirate NPC haulers.
You can have that game play as described, without forcing people in front of you who don't want to be there. (oh, and you cannot steal system data, so half your quote is not even valid in game at all)

 

[Spacejanitor]

Nope, you are the one choosing to ignore you can pirate NPC haulers.
You can have that game play as described, without forcing people in front of you who don't want to be there. (oh, and you cannot steal system data, so half your quote is not even valid in game at all)

Ofc, but some of us hauling want to be killed by player pirates, but not by someone who has "cheated" their way into a bigger ship in a safe trading mode.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Did I say something about holier than thou...?

Mobius' group is a good example of how a pure open PvE mode should exist as well (change solo to open PvE and be done with it..). It's quite clear that the current game modes are insufficient.

[Edit] Wait a moment.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I can understand people who want to swap between solo, group and open, but you who do that please understand us who have a problem with that. To be perfectly honest, separating open from the private modes at this point would create such a storm it's never going to happen. Instead, all pure open players unite to get our own CLOSED public pvp ruleset game mode.

What you are then talking about is a new open mode with a restriction in place such that commanders that play in that mode can never leave. As there is no group switching restriction in place, this would require a reworking of the commander creation system to include nomination as to whether the commander was going to be used in closed-open or in any/all of the existing three modes and a reworking of the launcher to restrict the player's options depending on whether the commander had been created for closed-open or for the other three modes.

 

[Spacejanitor]

@Robert Maynard Yeah, that would be totally unheard of though, none of the other online games have this.

 

[Dave1235]

I'm personally of the opinion that solo just shouldn't exist. .

I am personally of the opinion that people should do a little research before they buy, rather than try to change it after because they don't like what they bought.

 

[Jockey79]

Ofc, but some of us hauling want to be killed by player pirates, but not by someone who has "cheated" their way into a bigger ship in a safe trading mode.

So now you're accusing people of "cheating" for playing the game how it was intended and designed - wow, you guys really have run out of points now haven't you.
Shame the accusation of "exploiting" (same vein as cheating) was covered and debunked by people posting the game design information, like so;

From the Kickstarter;
*And the best part - you can do all this online with your friends, or other "Elite" pilots like yourself, or even alone. The choice is yours...*
*you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends? Cooperate on adventures or chase your friends down to get that booty. The game will work in a seamless, lobby-less way, with the ability to rendezvous with friends
*Play it your way*
Your reputation is affected by your personal choices. Play the game your way: dangerous pirate, famous explorer or notorious assassin - the choice is yours to make. Take on missions and affect the world around you, alone or with your friends.*
*You simply play the game, and depending on your configuration (your choice) *
*We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will,*

From the forum archives;
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6300

All Players Group– Players in this group will be matched with each other as much as possible to ensure as many human players can meet and play together
Private Group – Players in this group will only be matched with other players in the same private group
Solo Group – Players in this group won’t be matched with anyone else ever (effectively a private group with no one else invited)
(All by a Lead Designer)

Also DB on Multiplayer and Grouping and Single (01:00 - 02:01)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5JY...kuz6s&index=18

DB on "Griefing" and "Griefers"
(Listen out for the part where FD can move them in to a private group of just each other)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5hqjxmf4M

Rededit Topic on "unusual event for players to come against players" (With Twitch Video)
http://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangero...ayers_to_come/

Direct Twitch Link; (Note DB use "Occasonial" and "unusual" regarding players interacting)
http://www.twitch.tv/egx/b/571962295?t=69m00s

Also, MMO does not mean "social" (It means lots of people connected)

A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet. MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ.