Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[Theodrid]

I stop reading here, because while there may be a few pirates in the galaxy doing well, they're a plethora of traders and BH's and Explorers who make FAR more money than the average pirate does.

Pirating in even the best system relies on sheer luck. Because this game does not differentiate booming economic systems from lockdown systems. As a pirate the traders I will will meet in one system will be the same as the next, no matter whether it is anarchy or governed. Governed systems should benefit pirates with higher rewards for taking higher risks of bounties, which currently they do not. Anarchy systems should be riskier but come with even greater rewards for pirates, which currently they do not.

Currently, I could clear my save and wipe out my fully fitted viper killing machine and make more money in a 10 hold sidewinder per hour doing missions and USS'S than I was making in the viper that was fitted for piracy and had 500k bounty on it.

And there we will disagree, is there an element of luck involved in piracy - of course, there is also luck involved in trading, (to a degree), and in exploration. And as I have stated before, piracy probably should be the hardest 'career path' in this game. If you read the DDA on piracy it is very clear in what it takes to be good at it. Piracy, and pirates who 'do it right', should, in my opinion, be the most skilled, in terms of combat and interdiction, have greater system knowledge, (in terms of their current area), and have a fantastic knowledge of when it is 'worth the risk' or 'when to run'. Pirates should not stay around the same area too long, they should know their and their preys ships inside out.

Nah, I think Frontier have it right with piracy, (for the most part), there are some improvements that can be made, but I have the utmost respect for the successful pirates out there, they truly can be the Elite.

And do yourself a favour - read the rest of my post where you 'stopped reading there', because it makes a mockery of most of the arguments against group switching being a possibility.

 

[Theodrid]

Well, the whole point is to avoid those arguments to be able to continue the argument. Wouldn't want to lose the argument on account of factuality now would we?

Could you elaborate on that a little please, it is a little cryptic for me?

 

[Cathalo]

And where did FD advertise that Pirates would be making as much as traders?

Well done you!

They didn't say how much each profession would make, they simply stated all of the professions that would be viable in the game. Yet, how is a pirate ever going to afford to purchase a Python? Let alone the upkeep costs of flying one? Maybe there are a few dozen in the universe who will, but I reckon that most of them will have earned the upkeep cost from trading and not from pirating.

 

[Cathalo]

And there we will disagree, is there an element of luck involved in piracy - of course, there is also luck involved in trading, (to a degree), and in exploration. And as I have stated before, piracy probably should be the hardest 'career path' in this game. If you read the DDA on piracy it is very clear in what it takes to be good at it. Piracy, and pirates who 'do it right', should, in my opinion, be the most skilled, in terms of combat and interdiction, have greater system knowledge, (in terms of their current area), and have a fantastic knowledge of when it is 'worth the risk' or 'when to run'. Pirates should not stay around the same area too long, they should know their and their preys ships inside out.

Nah, I think Frontier have it right with piracy, (for the most part), there are some improvements that can be made, but I have the utmost respect for the successful pirates out there, they truly can be the Elite.

And do yourself a favour - read the rest of my post where you 'stopped reading there', because it makes a mockery of most of the arguments against group switching being a possibility.

Try living in a Pirates shoes from day one. The only money you make comes strictly from piracy. Then catalog this experience and tell me when you buy your first medium size ship.

Now, live the game playing the trader or bounty hunter or explorer, and get back to me when you get your first medium sized ship.

The trader will get it in a matter of days, the bounty hunter will get it in a matter of a couple weeks, the explorer the same as the bounty hunter. The pirate will not get it at all unless he takes part in trading, bounty hunting or exploring. Which basically means he is not a pirate.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Thread derailed therefore to discuss income from piracy vs income from other trades.

I think that the thread you need is thataway --->

Imbalance of incomes between different trades has nothing to do with open vs groups vs solo.

 

[ianw]

They didn't say how much each profession would make, they simply stated all of the professions that would be viable in the game. Yet, how is a pirate ever going to afford to purchase a Python? Let alone the upkeep costs of flying one? Maybe there are a few dozen in the universe who will, but I reckon that most of them will have earned the upkeep cost from trading and not from pirating.

Well the only way they could try and tweak it would be to make NPC traders fly with rares everywhere - but then everyone would break out an eye patch and start yelling Yarrrrr! over comms..

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

They didn't say how much each profession would make, they simply stated all of the professions that would be viable in the game. Yet, how is a pirate ever going to afford to purchase a Python? Let alone the upkeep costs of flying one? Maybe there are a few dozen in the universe who will, but I reckon that most of them will have earned the upkeep cost from trading and not from pirating.

why would a pirate want a python? it isnt a pirating vessel, you would never be able to fill the damn thing.

a pirate vessel needs to be smallish but with semi decent amount of cargo and have enough teeth to hurt. Historically the Adder was a firm choice of the pirate, and I can see why..

and you disagree with insurance? WOW!, so you really want to screw over the trader then, who is running a ship & cargo of potentially >50 million credits and you want yourself and a couple of other mates in throw away sidewinders to be able to kill them and lose everything? (after you have forced them into ALL of course) You talk about balance, but where is the balance there?

I am not saying the role of a pirate cant be fleshed out more (hell ALL the roles could be fleshed out more) and your idea of different trader types in different systems makes sense (to be honest i thought that was the case, but I will take your word over that, as someone who tries to stick to the law I dont know)

Not sure how much work it would be for a mod, but maybe this thread could be locked for 5 mins and all posts regarding piracy moved to the piracy thread (mine included - I am not complaining but it does seem to have gone OT, from PvP and PvE to piracy)

 

[Unfluffydave]

Finding a game that I like will be quite hard when game companies keep lying about their product. Piracy was promoted as a profession in this game, yet it is so far behind the other professions in terms of credits earned per hour that it isn't even funny.

This was an indie project too, which withers my hopes of the future even more. I don't agree with this game allowing insurance, if you get blown up you should have to start from the beginning. That is where the fun comes and the real challenge begins.

So why don't you clear your save whenever you get blown up if that is your playstyle and YOU consider that a challenge? Don't expect other players to conform to what your style is. Piracy was promoted as a profession in the game, yes, and it is a profession in the game. Nobody claimed anything about whether or not it makes as much credits are other professions, that is YOUR assumption.

What has an indie project got to do with the future of the game? if the fact that the game is an indie is that much of a problem for you why did you buy into it in the first place? your concern about the future must have been the same then as it is now since you are on about the future, not gameplay elements, so what has changed?

 

[Cathalo]

So, being able to purchase a Python determines viability?

That's rather arbitrary isnt it?

Career paths must be viable if you want players to stay on board.

If you promise a career path in your game it needs to be viable for forward progression the same way the other paths are.

 

[Coccolino]

BOTTOM LINE
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Solo and group is PvE. Open play is PvP. There needs to be incentives to encourage open play, particularly for those activities which are high risk in a PvP environment, such as trading. The reasoning is, why would anyone contemplate the added risk of trading in a PvP environment. Some of us do (we're the thrill seekers), but there have been many incidents of people logging when under attack from players. Which begs the question, why bother with PvP at all?
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There is also one other aspect of the PvE vs PvP argument that worries me. At the moment, a player has an impact on the galaxy, whether they're in PvE or PvP. In the future, when players have invested time, money and risk on developing their allegiances, it would be somewhat unfair and unrealistic to have pure PvE players affecting events.

It is such a basic concept... It's the base of the game, why can't people understand this?
I can't predict the future, but I feel I'll got bored soon if something isn't going to change about this, because i quit playing each game that allows or can't defeat unfair ways to play.

 

[CMDR Bansidhe]

Stating that an opinion held is the only correct one due to claimed experience is not argument from authority now?

No. As I have told you repeatedly. You obviously understand it that way as that it the context you use it in but you misinterpreted what you read.

Let me give you an example of what an appeal to authority actually looks like:

Person A: (Brandishing handgun) You see this. M1911 - the single best handgun ever made.
Person B: How can you say that? What criteria are you using to determine that?
Person A: Well look, my uncle is a writer of military history and as such he knows a thing or two about the subject and he says the M1911 is the best handgun ever made.

^^That is an appeal to authority (argument from authority).

This is wholly different from....

Person C: Well that's as maybe but at the moment your uncle's opinion isn't valid. Why? Because as a member of the armed forces, trained in such matters, I can tell you straight off that what you are holding is a Gloch.

This is not argument from authority. It is just the correction of a mistake.

 

[Theodrid]

Try living in a Pirates shoes from day one. The only money you make comes strictly from piracy. Then catalog this experience and tell me when you buy your first medium size ship.

Now, live the game playing the trader or bounty hunter or explorer, and get back to me when you get your first medium sized ship.

The trader will get it in a matter of days, the bounty hunter will get it in a matter of a couple weeks, the explorer the same as the bounty hunter. The pirate will not get it at all unless he takes part in trading, bounty hunting or exploring. Which basically means he is not a pirate.

And again you make it sound impossible where others have had success. I have done a little piracy, I did okay at it, was it as profitable as trading - no, but I do not think it should be. Pirates are generally in cheaper ships than traders and any losses incurred pale into insignificance compared to potential trader losses. Pirates in smaller ships pay less for modules, insurance, repairs and a whole myriad of things, so maybe, profits should not be on a scale with traders. Lets face it, if you were making as much as a trader with significantly less in costs you would, in effect, actually be making more than traders - how does that scale?

Mind you, I play the game in a different way to you, always in open, but I tinker in a little bit of everything. I'm not saying this is necessarily how we are 'intended' to play but I will say that if I trade for an hour, explore for an hour, bounty hunt for an hour and try my hand at piracy for an hour that the credit balance ticks along very nicely thank you.

 

[Cathalo]

why would a pirate want a python? it isnt a pirating vessel, you would never be able to fill the damn thing.

a pirate vessel needs to be smallish but with semi decent amount of cargo and have enough teeth to hurt. Historically the Adder was a firm choice of the pirate, and I can see why..

and you disagree with insurance? WOW!, so you really want to screw over the trader then, who is running a ship & cargo of potentially >50 million credits and you want yourself and a couple of other mates in throw away sidewinders to be able to kill them? (after you have forced them into ALL of course) You talk about balance, but where is the balance there?

I am not saying the role of a pirate cant be fleshed out more (hell ALL the roles could be fleshed out more) and your idea of different trader types in different systems makes sense (to be honest i thought that was the case, but I will take your word over that, as someone who tries to stick to the law I dont know)

Not sure how much work it would be for a mod, but maybe this thread could be locked for 5 mins and all posts regarding piracy moved to the piracy thread (mine included - I am not complaining but it does seem to have gone OT, from PvP and PvE to piracy)

There are plenty of reasons why a pirate would want to fly a python, number one it's a killing machine. Number 2 it has good hold space which means we don't have to fly into port as often to trade off stolen cargo which saves us ALOT of time. Plus, it MASS LOCKS! thank you.

 

[Excitonex]

Can we just agree that Cathalo is trolling this thread and continue talking about how open and solo will never be merged? Then someone else can come in and make a post about how unfair it is that ghosts are affecting their universe. Then someone can come in and...what is the point of these threads again? I've been here for less than a week and I can promise you it's already been said. There is no new light to cast on this subject.

 

[Hannalicious]

Nothing wrong with doing that as opposed to combat logging. I wouldn't do either but other people are not there for our benefit or enjoyment, particularly when they stand to lose a ton and we stand to lose a few hundred credits. Until the pirate stands to face real and very serious consequences for an act of piracy then people are going to get miffed if some jerk keeps interdicting them. Currently piracy and player killing is in practice a consequence-free activity for the pirate.

Make it so that fines and bounties are huge and can never be paid off, make it that bounties over a medium limit negate insurance, make it so that faction docking rights are permanently withdrawn and maybe even make death = perma-death over a set bounty limit then maybe there's a discussion to be had.

While one guy in an million credit ship which is insured anyway can cost a trader millions while only risking a few hundred or a couple of thousand credit fine they can go immediately pay off, then relogging is a perfectly rational tactic for a player to maximise their own enjoyment of the game (remembering our enjoyment and our individual sense of what is 'fair' and even our opinions regarding their reasons to be in Open and not Solo are not part of the equation).

If people have to choose to play in one mode and one mode only then Open will become a desert.

Great post, really.

I truly believe the problem with lacking targets to pirate isn't because there is a solo mode. It's because being pirated and/or killed is for most people an experience that takes away more FUN from the game than it adds. If there was a mechanic in place to make the whole pirate/piratee game fun for BOTH parties then there would be more targets to pirate.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

There are plenty of reasons why a pirate would want to fly a python, number one it's a killing machine. Number 2 it has good hold space which means we don't have to fly into port as often to trade off stolen cargo which saves us ALOT of time. Plus, it MASS LOCKS! thank you.

A pirate does not kill their mark, but ok, I can see why you may WANT one, but it does not mean it is the vessel suited to that role. Sounds like you want an I WIN button, but then you already have that.... an eagle is an i win button against a hauler and a viper / adder is an i win button against an T6.

There are LOTS of things I want, some in elite, some in RL, but it is unlikely I will ever get them........

 

[Cathalo]

And again you make it sound impossible where others have had success. I have done a little piracy, I did okay at it, was it as profitable as trading - no, but I do not think it should be. Pirates are generally in cheaper ships than traders and any losses incurred pale into insignificance compared to potential trader losses. Pirates in smaller ships pay less for modules, insurance, repairs and a whole myriad of things, so maybe, profits should not be on a scale with traders. Lets face it, if you were making as much as a trader with significantly less in costs you would, in effect, actually be making more than traders - how does that scale?

Mind you, I play the game in a different way to you, always in open, but I tinker in a little bit of everything. I'm not saying this is necessarily how we are 'intended' to play but I will say that if I trade for an hour, explore for an hour, bounty hunt for an hour and try my hand at piracy for an hour that the credit balance ticks along very nicely thank you.

This is where you're argument falls apart. I'm perfectly fine with having more risk involved, personally I think that any time a ship gets destroyed in this game the pilot should have to reset his save. I don't care about risk or insurance or how much pixels I have earned to my account in a virtual online game. NONE OF IT MATTERS. Nothing you do or earn in this game will ever matter, because it is all 0101010101010101010101. That is it.

I play games to have fun, unlike most people. If a game allows me to be a pirate that is fine, I LIKE THIS ROLE!!! But do not lie to me, oK????

 

[hunvagy]

Finding a game that I like will be quite hard when game companies keep lying about their product. Piracy was promoted as a profession in this game, yet it is so far behind the other professions in terms of credits earned per hour that it isn't even funny.

This was an indie project too, which withers my hopes of the future even more. I don't agree with this game allowing insurance, if you get blown up you should have to start from the beginning. That is where the fun comes and the real challenge begins.

Lying about products? You mean just clicking buy without reading anything about the game at all, right? Like Stomping Grounds, Slaughtering Grounds, WarZ (or Infestation: Survival Stories), Rust, Star Forge.. the list goes on. 5 minutes spent reading up on any information on those games would have saved a lot of people a lot of grief, instead of believing the shiny blurb that says "this game will change your life.. for reals". Same with Elite.

All the people who complain about the Open/Solo/Group layout of the game just show that they couldn't even be bothered to research any basic information about a title they decided to support/pre-order/buy on release. Yes Frontier should've put all that information from the DDA to the main page, but still, it's not the game's fault you believe a half page advert clearly aimed to make you buy the game, without any research at all. That's why so many people get burnt and buy tosh.

The current system works for the most part as advertised. Open players play in open, those who lost offline mode play in solo or got their refunds, and groups flourish. Nothing to solve here, because it ain't broken. The only thing that happens every week again and again is the same tiresome arguments brought out to try and persuade .. I don't even know whom that something is wrong.

Seriously, who are these threads aimed at? The ones that oppose changes to the current system? They won't change their minds. Or the ones who want to change it? Don't they already know they want to change it? Or at the devs to force a change. Don't you think if they thought the system to be unfair, they would have designed it different?

 

[Cathalo]

A pirate does not kill their mark, but ok, I can see why you may WANT one, but it does not mean it is the vessel suited to that role. Sounds like you want an I WIN button, but then you already have that.... an eagle is an i win button against a hauler and a viper / adder is an i win button against an T6.

There are LOTS of things I want, some in elite, some in RL, but it is unlikely I will ever get them........

No, a pirate does not want to kill his mark. But the stronger the killing machine and the better the mass lock the better the chance the pirate has of getting cargo especially if he has limpets!

 

[ianw]

No. As I have told you repeatedly. You obviously understand it that way as that it the context you use it in but you misinterpreted what you read.

Let me give you an example of what an appeal to authority actually looks like:

Person A: (Brandishing handgun) You see this. M1911 - the single best handgun ever made.
Person B: How can you say that? What criteria are you using to determine that?
Person A: Well look, my uncle is a writer of military history and as such he knows a thing or two about the subject and he says the M1911 is the best handgun ever made.

^^That is an appeal to authority (argument from authority).

This is wholly different from....

Person C: Well that's as maybe but at the moment your uncle's opinion isn't valid. Why? Because as a member of the armed forces, trained in such matters, I can tell you straight off that what you are holding is a Gloch.

This is not argument from authority. It is just the correction of a mistake.

It's kind of the same thing - if person C is saying I know it's a Glock because I'm a member of the armed forces then surely that is also an argument from authority. As an observer I'm expected to believe person C because they claim to be a member of the armed forces. Isn't that the definition of an argument from authority?

And if we want to get really silly they might be in the catering corps anyway and not really be up on all the gun stuff anyway!