Players losing it all and quitting - sure, their fault but not good for the game.

[Xpats]

Is it good that you can lose everything? Yes!
Is it good that people lose everything without knowing that they were in danger? No!

There is a generous loan of 200,000. It is really unlikely that you would go from straight up beginner, to a point where this loan completely doesn't cover you without exploding a few times. When you think about it, this is probably why the game does not explicitly tell you a number of things to make sure you explode a few times while still being covered by a loan. Trying to dock for the first time without requesting permission = explode and insurance page. Taking on an Anaconda bounty hunter mission in a sidewinder = explode and insurance page. Buying modules without an appropriate power plant = explode and insurance page (this was my first lost Eagle). If somebody was somehow able to know about all of these things before death, it would seem strange that they would be clueless about insurance, which is perhaps the most important mechanic in the game.

 

[fademist]

Hi folks,

Over and over again we see players in the facebook group and here coming on to say that for whatever reason they we operating without the rebuy funds, something happened and whammo... back to square one. Most seem to quit thereafter.

Now it's very easy to take the lofy moral ground and say that it's their fault for taking the risk they did. But the long and short of it is, it's not good for the game. This game is designed for humans and we have to consider how they are, not how they should be.

You could just ignore this issue and be high minded about it, but I believe the game will suffer.

Amazingly, I have even seen posts where people claim not to have known they could lose everything, although I find that hard to comprehend. People can be caught out too... for example a new module is bought and the calculations fail to take the increase in rebuy cost into account and the player is shy of the rebuy cost without realising it.

Personally, I never fly without the rebuy cost. I don't even risk my trading capital (mostly, have risked it a few times). You just need one-glitch when docking... a bump in the slit... whatever... and it's all over.

Are there plans to do anything about it? I'm not suggesting we dumb the game down, but perhaps there are simple things that could be done without removing the risk management aspect of things.

For example, you could have a system of accounts and you could move credits between them... for example, to put your rebuy cost aside.

Or, a simple message when your funds would drop below the rebuy cost after a transaction.

Or, your insurance excess is zero but you pay a premium. Or let the player decide the risk by having a premium that is related to the insurance excess.

Thoughts?

dont forget isnt always the quit bad ... on this game u can stop and start again on later time without to worry about sub and that ;p

 

[ste]

Didn't realize you knew how every single person thinks in the entire world. Please write a book so as to enlighten the entire human race.

Not everyone, just the numptys that thought 'pah, who needs insurance anyway, whats the chances of me blowing up, I havent died for weeks. Oops, finger slipped and boosted into the station. Arrrrg. Damn you frontier, Why cant I screw up and it not matter? You need to fix this somehow, make it impossible to never happen again or else.'

This is everyone of those threads in a nutshell.

 

[Corwyn]

I don't like too much hand holding in a game, but this is a serious issue that many are falling foul of.

Why not instead make insurance a non-compulsory purchase option, give them the choice up-front to pay or not to pay... At least that way they won't have the excuse of miscalculating how much to hold in reserve...

[EDIT] Make it a compulsory purchase in namby pamby systems and non-compulsory in others

You don't pay a deductible before the insurance claim.

 

[apolloz]

I wonder, can anybody else see the flaw in this thinking?

New players have nothing to lose, mate, the loan will cover them. It's a non-issue.

I'm not your mate - Mr non issue - and don't remember asking for your opinion I was providing a response to the question asked from Mr CrazyHorse -is that ok with you?

 

[Antmax]

Personally, I would have preferred the game to work more like the old ones where when you die you only lose all the progress you made since your last launch. That was pretty bad back in the day. And I don't really have time to take a huge loss. Luckily I have covered my ship with enough to pay off insurance and only died a couple of times when still in a cheap sub 100k ship.

But if I lost everything and had to start from scratch, I simply wouldn't bother. I've already spent too much time getting this far after having restarted 5-6 times in the last half year. Mostly server resets during beta. But I understand some of these people. Time is not cheap and there are better things to do than grind for days to get back to where you were should you lose everything.

 

[Xpats]

This.

As it stands, the game is incredibly bad at informing new players about several very important mechanics and concepts, other than through trial and error.

A simple warning when you try to launch that tells you when you don't have enough credits to cover the insurance costs (and makes it clear that this will mean you will lose the ship if it's destroyed for any reason) is all that's really needed.

Have you considered that learning through trial and error is the point?

 

[Lustan]

I'm not your mate - Mr non issue - and don't remember asking for your opinion I was providing a response to the question asked from Mr CrazyHorse -is that ok with you?

Nope because you disagree with us.

This is an emotionally charged issue with people who plan to never be on the losing side and people who lost. I don't mind helping people not lose as often. The world no longer needs ditch diggers.

 

[nbhamilt]

If your short on insurance in the real world they just cover part of your loss, not all of it. that would be a better solution.

Instead of total loss, a right proportion -

it also gets complicated, say you have one module worth 5 mil, if you sold that module youd have enough money to cover the insurance, so maybe simply make available loans big enough to cover a full rebuy, but that would force the sale of a module or two to repay the loan straight away and then you'd need to sell something to get trading capital if thats how you play.

 

[Lustan]

Have you considered that learning through trial and error is the point?

Except there is no trial for this in the practice. So error happens before the trial.

 

[BigBadB]

Have you considered that learning through trial and error is the point?

When it comes to something as potentially catastrophic as losing your ship and ending up back in a Sidey, trial and error apparently results in at least some players quitting.

I'm not suggesting adding any info that isn't already in the game if you know where to look and what it means. I'm just suggesting that this info - and its implications - be made clearer to the player in order to reduce the possibility of rage quitting.

I'm actually kinda flabbergasted that anyone would object to the game explaining certain critical mechanics and systems more clearly. It hurts no one and has no impact on the complexity of the game, it just allows newer or less experienced players to make more informed decisions. How this would be 'bad' in any way is beyond me, I'm afraid. <shrug>

 

[Xpats]

As far as I can see, the supported call is to put a warning message up before you launch without insurance. Your reaction is completely over the top. It is a game, everyone paid for it, everyone should have a chance to enjoy it. If a minor tweak can stop a needless dissatisfied customer then it really doesn't seem like the end of the world as we know it.

That is like saying that everybody who pays for a ticket to a concert should have their requests played by the band on stage.

 

[OneAmongOthers]

There should be no hand holding for stupid people that leave a docking pad without at least the cost to re-buy your ship in the event of it getting blown up. NO REASON. That's what makes this game so fantastic in one aspect. You know everytime you leave that station you are risking everything. Elite: Dangerous. Because it's dangerous out there and without insurance you are playing VERY dangerously.

 

[Xpats]

When it comes to something as potentially catastrophic as losing your ship and ending up back in a Sidey, trial and error apparently results in at least some players quitting.

I'm not suggesting adding any info that isn't already in the game if you know where to look and what it means. I'm just suggesting that this info - and its implications - be made clearer to the player in order to reduce the possibility of rage quitting.

I'm actually kinda flabbergasted that anyone would object to the game explaining certain critical mechanics and systems more clearly. It hurts no one and has no impact on the complexity of the game, it just allows newer or less experienced players to make more informed decisions. How this would be 'bad' in any way is beyond me, I'm afraid. <shrug>

Firstly, I did not mean trial and error as in losing a ship without insurance. I meant trial and error in terms of the other game mechanics ie docking, modules, etc... all while being covered by the loan as a beginner AND at the same time showing you the insurance screen repeatedly to hammer home a point.

Secondly, I don't object to a game explaining anything if it were programmed in such a way to do so. In this case, however, it is pretty clear that the game was made with trial and error in mind, as well as a sense of personal responsibility as well. That is what Elite is, and the reason many are hooked. Explanation is not inherently bad and is actually welcomed in some cases, but trying to change the very nature of something might not go over well.

I don't really want to comment on people who rage quit. It is their choice. If I were to lose everything tomorrow, I might take a few days off, and then come back because it is the act of playing that I enjoy.

 

[Corwyn]

If your short on insurance in the real world they just cover part of your loss, not all of it. that would be a better solution.

Instead of total loss, a right proportion -

it also gets complicated, say you have one module worth 5 mil, if you sold that module youd have enough money to cover the insurance, so maybe simply make available loans big enough to cover a full rebuy, but that would force the sale of a module or two to repay the loan straight away and then you'd need to sell something to get trading capital if thats how you play.

Perhaps you're confused about insurance. The Pilots Federation covers your insurance, what's listed as insurance it's just poorly named, it's a deductible that the insured pays as their part of the claim.

What they should do is rename it on the screen and in the doc, make it clear what it is.

 

[apolloz]

Nope because you disagree with us.

This is an emotionally charged issue with people who plan to never be on the losing side and people who lost. I don't mind helping people not lose as often. The world no longer needs ditch diggers.

erm us? thought I was talking to you. Is there more then one of you?
I have no idea what your talking about.. must be my age.
Where did I say I don't agree with you anyway , my point is that I was not talking to you in the first place but for some reason you put it upon yourself to give me your view which includes a statement to the credibility on what I am saying just because you didn't agree with, and then you go and ask others to agree with you , why? - you not able to manage a conversation on your own?

If you want to have a discussion with me - go for it but don't assume your ideas are better than mine just because you don't agree.
All I did is provide some harmless feedback like many others have and if other people don't agree that's absolutely fine with me but that does not give you the right to start talking down to people as if your point of view is superior , its not you have your views and I have mine. get over it.

 

[Jaeger]

As I mentioned in the "solo vs. open" thread: Why not just decrease death penalty dramatically? Where is the fun with being forced to start over with a sidewinder, regardless whose fault it was? Is this really "dangerous"?

Give us very low insurance costs and the following will happen in my opinion:

- more player in open mode because loosing ship and cargo would be just a bit annoying and not loss of many hours of game time
- PvP people get more opponents
- no need for combat logging

Why not?

Exactly, I have been asking this for ages and there is no response other then "making the game they want to play". It's pathetic, the lack of game in the PvP game should have seen the back of the egregious death penalties ages ago.

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The game won't be ruined because a few dozen players rage quit because they didn't set aside insurance money.

The community is big enough that even if 3,000 players do so it would only lose under 1% of the player base.

The game will be either be a success for many other reasons or a total failure down the road for many other different reasons still.

From an income point of view this is not a subscription based game, so people quitting after buying the product do not even impact the bottom line.

Arguably they have contributed equally to the bottom line and success of the game as players who stick around yet place 0 stress on the servers so by quitting the impact they have is to marginally improve the game experience for others...

Iam happy that this happens, so much games out today that are too easy. It is refreshing to play a game were you get hit in ur face if you do something wrong. Need more games with consequenzes.

There should be no hand holding for stupid people that leave a docking pad without at least the cost to re-buy your ship in the event of it getting blown up. NO REASON. That's what makes this game so fantastic in one aspect. You know everytime you leave that station you are risking everything. Elite: Dangerous. Because it's dangerous out there and without insurance you are playing VERY dangerously.

This kind of nonsense is nothing more then a reason why the game will fail in the end. At a minimum we need "Cargo insurance".

 

[Ian Skippy]

Time is not cheap and there are better things to do than grind for days to get back to where you were should you lose everything.

I know you said you are wise enough to cover insurance, but many dont. And a few may seriously not get how it works but the vast majority just gamble on being lucky. I really understand those who wouldnt bother again when they lose everything after hunderds or even thousands of hours. Ofcourse. I also understand those who don't really care: flying without insurance is a simple way to introduce an Iron Man mode which quite a few people really like. Both are equally valid perspectives. It is like going to the casino: some people do it once, some do it every weekend and some never set a foot inside. All cool.

What is not cool is people walking into casino's only to complain they lost money. That is just sad.

 

[OneAmongOthers]

Exactly, I have been asking this for ages and there is no response other then "making the game they want to play". It's pathetic, the lack of game in the PvP game should have seen the back of the egregious death penalties ages ago.

I hope they never make insurance cheaper. It's cheap enough already. Seriously a fully fitted A class Cobra is in the millions! Yet all you have to pay if it blows up is like 200.000 credits! That's really cheap! What do you want it at? 10k rebuy cost for an Anaconda or Type 9 so players can keep making careless and stupid mistakes without ever having to worry about it? You realize most make hundreds of millions (by trading) and the game has only been out for a couple months? Why do you need cheaper insurance? If you were to lazy or incompetent to have the common sense to keep enough for the re-buy cost you should be placed back in a Sidewinder. It's a dangerous world out there... Bring insurance or accept the consequences.

 

[NettiWelho]

Seriously a fully fitted A class Cobra is in the millions! Yet all you have to pay if it blows up is like 200.000 credits!

200k Cr covers up to 4m. My cobra was 5.5m when I let go of it.

But yeah, rebuy is cheap.