Players losing it all and quitting - sure, their fault but not good for the game.

[Ideas Man]

The insurance mechanic is neither difficult or frustrating, unless you took a short bus to school. Mean I know, but come on, personal responsibility and all that.

Yeah I do get your point and honestly I have just kind of 'stuck' to this thread, the issue at hand is pretty trivial in some ways, but let's look at the words we are using here - "personal responsibility" - surely there's an argument to be had that we play games to escape exactly that.

I do concede though that different people want different things and you'll never please them all etc

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Unless someone's shot down in pvp or squished by buggy code they can blame only themselves alone.

Or an archaic game design decision

 

[Mohrgan]

Yeah, sure. Force us to either play so "safe" that we never get to actually enjoy our ships, or watch entire months of stress and effort go straight down the toilet.

If you hate the idea of letting us actually enjoy this game so much, why don't we have two modes? One for people who would rather suffer extreme stress and hardship, and another for those of us who like to relax and play a GAME after work for crying out loud?

I don't mind you having it YOUR way. Why do I have to have it YOUR way too? I don't like it YOUR way.

We actually have 3 modes in which to play. Open, Group, and Solo. Join a PvE only group, like Mobius. Then you can have your wish. Leave E: D alone, and adapt to it. That's the whole point of the game.

 

[Sc00py]

So you think ED is too easy, whereas you like it hard, but because you go bankrupt regardless it hasn;t been worth waiting for.

I am not quite sure what your point is, but I suspect you lost your train of thought somewhere.

your abuse of quoting made YOU lost my train of thought

 

[Tempered]

Personally, I really don't care if they change the way insurance works. It really doesn't effect my overall feel of the game. I play solo and always have enough cash on hand to cover my losses. I have to wonder, however, if those that scream the loudest about insurance are those that pvp alot and end up unable to cover multiple ship losses. If so, maybe these type players could suggest what would work for them?

 

[DYSEQTA]

Honestly, this all just takes me back to thinking about the difference between gaming back in the 80's, when it was REALLY HARD! You lost your lives in Ghosts and Goblins, and even if you were at the last boss, you had to start again.

A more recent "difficult" game, say, Halo, set to the highest difficulty, is also very hard, however, if you day, you merely go back tot he nearest spawn point (as often as you like) and if there is a second payer, you spawn in the thick of the action you just died in, effectively limitless reinforcements.

Harden up, I say. Very sick of everything being sugar coated, kids getting awards for simply turning up, getting your back patted and a cash injection because you were too silly to have enough cash for the insurance on your ship...

It's not that hard. Perhaps treat the difficulty as a form of evolution, a culling of the bad genes, if you will. Perhaps E: D will be better for it in the long term, less whinging, whining and complaining, more people who want to enjoy the game in a way that actually presents a bit of a challenge, and makes you weight up the consequences of your actions.

Z...

To all the new comers to this thread: This game was designed by the Dev's and the Backers et' al.. Those of us who have plunked down our $60.00 to play shouldn't feel like you need to improve the game. Things will improve, but it should stay with the vision with which inspired it. The penalty for dying is an integral part of the games philosophy. As far as I know, FD only expects the players out there that accept that, and enjoy that to be customers. Coming in and trying to coerce the Dev's into making the game like all the other games out there is a mistake. They expect and desire to be different and to make Elite what it should be.
.
Adapt and overcome. If that's too mush for you, there is a world of games out there for you to enjoy.

Quoting for truth. If you want a game to pander to you and make you feel good about yourself when you are doing things wrong, go play something else as you are in the wrong place.

 

[Ideas Man]

OK, an open question to everyone as this is a good thread I think, good discussions going on.

Here is a scenario that happened the other night.

My and my group of gamer pals are playing the game and we have a rivalry with another group, we are in effect doing everything that Frontier want players to do, we are in fragile peace talks with each group playing their parts brilliantly.

One of 'their' commanders was out in the field and we intercepted him, a 'disagreement' broke out and shots were fired, we took him down and he did the fun thing and regrouped, re bought his ship and came back at us.

Lots of fun was being had until, well, the guy flat run out of cash and loans, he had to go and everyone was disappointed but hey ho, that's the 'way it is' - it was in effect a huge NO MORE FUN FOR YOU for, well *immersion reasons* I guess.

So the question is, is this a perfect system, and did anyone benefit from it in that scenario? I bring it up because it isn't just clueless new players who are 'stung' by it.

 

[Zeeman]

Yeah I do get your point and honestly I have just kind of 'stuck' to this thread, the issue at hand is pretty trivial in some ways, but let's look at the words we are using here - "personal responsibility" - surely there's an argument to be had that we play games to escape exactly that.

I do concede though that different people want different things and you'll never please them all etc

-


Or an archaic game design decision

Archaic? Like losing it all if you don't have enough cash stashed away to cover insurance costs?

That's not archaic.

Z...

 

[Ideas Man]

Archaic? Like losing it all if you don't have enough cash stashed away to cover insurance costs?

That's not archaic.

Z...

Pray tell how it is an engaging gameplay element?

 

[Maccus]

I don't mind the challenge. Not in the slightest. Heck before I got into the game, I understood that it was a series that was all about brutal loss if you screwed up. I expected no less when I joined, and I am having a blast with this game now.

People need to do their research on a game before just diving into it head first cuz it looks pretty. I blame the consumers here, not the developers. The devs have a vision and are sticking too it. I hope they give these whiny children the finger and make it even harder.

 

[NettiWelho]

Pray tell how it is an engaging gameplay element?

The engagements feel more real when there is a risk of losing a few hours of progress if you foul up.

Only way you lose more than a few hours is if you make an informed decision to risk it.

 

[Ian Skippy]

If you hate the idea of letting us actually enjoy this game so much, why don't we have two modes? One for people who would rather suffer extreme stress and hardship, and another for those of us who like to relax and play a GAME after work for crying out loud?

I don't mind you having it YOUR way. Why do I have to have it YOUR way too? I don't like it YOUR way.

Really, I agree 100% with you. I have said it elsewhere: as long as I can toggle it off in the options menu I have zero problems with giving others more safety nets. And I think a game like ED is one of the few online games where it can really be like that. A related example: if other people want to disable friendly fire=bounty, or disable accidental boost in stations, I am cool with that. It does not influence me in any way at all. Just allow me to die in all kinds of stupid ways in peace.

 

[Zeeman]

OK, an open question to everyone as this is a good thread I think, good discussions going on.

Here is a scenario that happened the other night.

My and my group of gamer pals are playing the game and we have a rivalry with another group, we are in effect doing everything that Frontier want players to do, we are in fragile peace talks with each group playing their parts brilliantly.

One of 'their' commanders was out in the field and we intercepted him, a 'disagreement' broke out and shots were fired, we took him down and he did the fun thing and regrouped, re bought his ship and came back at us.

Lots of fun was being had until, well, the guy flat run out of cash and loans, he had to go and everyone was disappointed but hey ho, that's the 'way it is' - it was in effect a huge NO MORE FUN FOR YOU for, well *immersion reasons* I guess.

So the question is, is this a perfect system, and did anyone benefit from it in that scenario? I bring it up because it isn't just clueless new players who are 'stung' by it.

I'd suggest going into battle with cheaper ships.

I can see your point, but this isn't meant to be a COD Deathmatch.

That player falling out is, effectively, the other side gaining a win in the process. Otherwise, it'll be an endless no win situation. He now has to go earn enough cash to get back in, can he do it in time to help his team?

Perhaps one of his team mates with a bit more cash can drop a few tons of gold or palladium to help him out financially...

I've seen plenty of commanders dropping free cargo for newbies (and not so newbies) who they do not even know...

Perhaps one of the players in each team is an epic trader making squillions in a T7 or T9? Perhaps part of their job could be to help bankroll the operation?

Don't have someone like that? Find someone like that, and compel them to join your cause... Strategy is part of the fun of combat!

Z...

 

[Sc00py]

Personally, I really don't care if they change the way insurance works. It really doesn't effect my overall feel of the game. I play solo and always have enough cash on hand to cover my losses. I have to wonder, however, if those that scream the loudest about insurance are those that pvp alot and end up unable to cover multiple ship losses. If so, maybe these type players could suggest what would work for them?

this : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102984&p=1596546#post1596546

it is hard to get heard if u want to get rid of insurance let alone be taken seriously

 

[Mohrgan]

OK, an open question to everyone as this is a good thread I think, good discussions going on.

Here is a scenario that happened the other night.

My and my group of gamer pals are playing the game and we have a rivalry with another group, we are in effect doing everything that Frontier want players to do, we are in fragile peace talks with each group playing their parts brilliantly.

One of 'their' commanders was out in the field and we intercepted him, a 'disagreement' broke out and shots were fired, we took him down and he did the fun thing and regrouped, re bought his ship and came back at us.

Lots of fun was being had until, well, the guy flat run out of cash and loans, he had to go and everyone was disappointed but hey ho, that's the 'way it is' - it was in effect a huge NO MORE FUN FOR YOU for, well *immersion reasons* I guess.

So the question is, is this a perfect system, and did anyone benefit from it in that scenario? I bring it up because it isn't just clueless new players who are 'stung' by it.

He wasn't stung. You weren't forced to stop enjoying the game. He just needs to focus on another aspect of the game, making money, to support his desire to die to your guns. Drop him some Rares, float some gold out there for him to pick up, but changing a core mechanic to allow that kind of foolishness isn't how Elite works. He, and you knew that from the start. There's no issue here.

 

[Ideas Man]

The engagements feel more real when there is a risk of losing a few hours of progress if you foul up.

Only way you lose more than a few hours if you make a informed decision to do risk it.

That's a fair comment, thanks.
I'd be delighted if two things could happen:

1) Buy back cost is displayed next to ships in the shipyard so you know going in what you could lose (we all know affording a ship and affording to run it are two separate things!)
2) If all else fails the power to put things right is not taken out of the players hands, maybe in the form of Rep Missions for the Insurance Company (working your ass off running errands for them for a night should be a good enough lesson) where you can earn the right to a bigger loan.

Both are just tweaks as the system itself is OK in my humble opinion and the risk of loss is a good thing over all.

 

[Mohrgan]

I don't mind the challenge. Not in the slightest. Heck before I got into the game, I understood that it was a series that was all about brutal loss if you screwed up. I expected no less when I joined, and I am having a blast with this game now.

People need to do their research on a game before just diving into it head first cuz it looks pretty. I blame the consumers here, not the developers. The devs have a vision and are sticking too it. I hope they give these whiny children the finger and make it even harder.

Amen. Read this again everyone. Put a copy of on your windshield so you can see as you Launch.

 

[Tenshi]

I see it as their own fault and don't want to see any hand holding for being stupid.

Everyone knows the risks when they leave the station, I always make sure I can rebuy my ship at least 10 times over after cargo is bought before I leave the station. This way I have enough for fuel, repairs and rearm of weapons, as well as some new ships if I get blown up.

 

[Tempered]

I think that the core problem lies with trying to make a single player system fit into multiplayer. As much as I really don't want or need another multiplayer frag game, I think that FD needs to jump into it with both feet now that they've decided multiplayer is what they want. They need to make any death penalty bearable for the pvp crowd. I don't know if they could or even would consider different death penalties for solo and online.

Just for the record. I think making the game multiplayer is the biggest design mistake that they made with E D. They could have just gone coop or single player as the franchise was known for.

 

[Ideas Man]

He wasn't stung. You weren't forced to stop enjoying the game. He just needs to focus on another aspect of the game, making money, to support his desire to die to your guns. Drop him some Rares, float some gold out there for him to pick up, but changing a core mechanic to allow that kind of foolishness isn't how Elite works. He, and you knew that from the start. There's no issue here.

There is no issue in your opinion - it'll be interesting to see if any changes are ever made, maybe they will, maybe not however I do feel that every group is catered for in ED apart from people who just want to duke it out.
I don't have any solutions to offer, it's just food for thought really as the PVP crowd do exist and as it stands the system at them moment punishes that kind of gameplay.

One mantra on this site that I have always liked is the 'play your own way' kind of thing, hopefully that still applies. Calling group based PVP 'foolishness' is as valid as me saying that exploring is pointless (i.e. it isn't)

 

[Sergio Smegolia]

LOL @ all the "good riddance" knuckleheads. Let me offer you a piece of free advice. Don't ever start a business.

Whaaaaa??? Anyday I'd rather start a business with people who believed in your niche product and then, when established try and expand that business. Rather than been yet another lost to the business world company that try to please everyone by copying everything everyone else does. If he were alive you could ask Steve Jobs.

That said, nothing wrong with a simple warning message about no insurance. Can't believe anyone could argue against it and it would sure make the forums less angry at times.