Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.

[Raest]

Yes I am aware of that. It is a thin line and requires you to balance your ship. Do I want a maxed out attack power or do I want less attack power but better defense capability?

in theory (and in good balanced games ), this is true and i completely agree. the problem is here in ED that the multirole ships are already waaaay too close to combat focused ones, except now with those new changes (or that specific part of your proposal ), the multirole ships would be better at combat than combat ships because they wouldn't have to sacrifice neither offence nor defence since they have so much power, unlike the puny generators on combat ships (seriously, who came up with that idea that combat ships should be power deprived when combat-oriented ship parts are the most power draining? it makes no sense logically, balance-wise, realistically... it just doesn't)

 

[rj134]

I'd have to say 'Yes', but only the cost of the cells. 100cr is stupidly cheap. Right now you can pop shield cells cause you're losing a fight against a pirate in a sidewinder and still make money.

Upping the cost changes nothing. All it does is raise the income threshold at which someone focused on combat can realize his full potential. He will simply be sub-par and forced to grind credits until he fields the income required to use the best mods.

Hence, balancing shield cells via cost is a futile endeavour. All it does is frustrate newbies and broke players while lending the edge to those rich enough to not care about the costs.

SCB must be adjusted in a way where a sufficient amount of dedicated anti-shield weapons (read: lasers) can out-DPS the shield cell generated HP/s to force the shield to collapse.

 

[Shanaeri]

limit SC's to class 3 modules only. Job done. Large ships wont be able to carry as many and wont be able to refresh shields as fast, smaller ships still wont be able to carry as many but they'll be more effective per charge. So instead of being, who has the most it becomes a tactical decision.

 

[Cratherhak]

in theory (and in good balanced games ), this is true and i completely agree. the problem is here in ED that the multirole ships are already waaaay too close to combat focused ones, except now with those new changes (or that specific part of your proposal ), the multirole ships would be better at combat than combat ships because they wouldn't have to sacrifice neither offence nor defence since they have so much power, unlike the puny generators on combat ships (seriously, who came up with that idea that combat ships should be power deprived when combat-oriented ship parts are the most power draining? it makes no sense logically, balance-wise, realistically... it just doesn't)

I see your point which is definitely valid Hm, what if the "ships class" includes a modifier? A combat rated ship gets a slight bonus about power requirements for the weapons - what ever combat rated would mean. This might help to fill the power plant power gap between the multi role ships. Oh my, these things are difficult...

 

[Vyvian]

I don't think money should really come into it (ie: Cost of ammo). Should come down to the behaviour of the unit itself being balanced IMHO.

I do agree with you that shield cells do need a overhaul, but for now I think they should stay in game as is, with a large price increase, until other things have been added or readdressed. When Bounty Hunters or Mercenaries have a reasonable progression more akin to trading then we could probably just all but do away with shield cells.

My issue is that right now you can move from Sidewinder to Eagle to Viper to fully kitted Viper at a reasonable pace by being solely a combat pilot which is what these ships are about (minus the starting ship.).

At that point you can move up to the Cobra, or stick with the Viper which in my opinion is a fantastic ship.

Then you just need to grind 30mil credits and rank with the Empire to get to the Clipper. Then you can make very good money BHing until you get to the Python maybe. Personally I'm sticking with the Clipper. Just need 90mil more credits to finish outfitting it.


Problem is without shield cells and their help taking down Elite Anacondas the grind between Viper and Clipper would be exhausting to say the least.

Lets say 250,000cr an hour, so only 120 hours to get to the Clipper. Shield cells maybe give you the chance to double this to 500,000cr per hour, so only 60 hours.

Lets face it, if you can't take down a Anaconda in anything less than a Python, then most players will have quit the game without ever destroying an Anaconda. Most simply won't be bothered to grind for that long.

And yes I do know that you can destroy Anacondas in a Viper without shield cells (I have done it myself on occasions.) but then most players haven't been playing since Alpha and have HOTAS, pedals, Track IR, Voice Attack, Roccat and whatever other expensive items that us hardcore players on the forums own.

I'm sure when you play with a simple gamepad, the game is a lot more difficult, than for those of us who can simultainously adjust our vertical and lateral thrust, while performing a pitch and roll, changing our speed throughout, and also selecting a new fire group, and diverting more power to shields, all the time dictating a new message on the forums about how the game has to be made more difficult because it's just not a challenge when you can fly this well.

Sorry about the rant, and sorry if anyone is insulted by this but I felt it needed to be said. We really should remember that changes to the game should be in the best interests of all the players and not just those of us who are 'Elite'or just 'Dangerous' in my case.

 

[NeilF]

limit SC's to class 3 modules only. Job done. Large ships wont be able to carry as many and wont be able to refresh shields as fast, smaller ships still wont be able to carry as many but they'll be more effective per charge. So instead of being, who has the most it becomes a tactical decision.

Surely what we're after is not limiting how many you have, but limiting how quickly/frequently you can use them? If someone wants to go out bounty hunting with 2-3 of them onboard so they don't need to return to ammo them back up so often, is that a problem? What we're surely trying to stop is people using them in parallel so they can use them 2-3 times at the rate of others, or for 2-3 times as long as other people in a single fight.

Limit there frequency to one shield cell per X seconds no matter how many you have onboard (your distributer can't cope with it more often) and just make sure that gap is long enough to prevent uber shields, but still offers a tactical recharge periodically.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Just reading all the different opinions on SCB's it seems there is no good solution - it still equates to a health potion so it seems to me the best option would be a complete removal and to design something else, or work on tweaking the other values in the game,.

 

[NeilF]

Just reading all the different opinions on SCB's it seems there is no good solution - it still equates to a health potion so it seems to me the best option would be a complete removal and to design something else, or work on tweaking the other values in the game,.

And if you could only fire off a shield cell once every minute (or some other fairly long period)? No matter how many you had?

 

[Vyvian]

Upping the cost changes nothing. All it does is raise the income threshold at which someone focused on combat can realize his full potential. He will simply be sub-par and forced to grind credits until he fields the income required to use the best mods.

Hence, balancing shield cells via cost is a futile endeavour. All it does is frustrate newbies and broke players while lending the edge to those rich enough to not care about the costs.

SCB must be adjusted in a way where a sufficient amount of dedicated anti-shield weapons (read: lasers) can out-DPS the shield cell generated HP/s to force the shield to collapse.

I would have to disagree with your first statement. Cheap shield cells are likely to hamper a player from finding their full potential.

'Oh, I'm loosing to a 'Harmless' Sidewinder, I could either pratice to fly and fight better or I can pop shield cells and just keep on firing at it and still make money on the bounty.'

Try taking down an Anaconda in a Viper with no shield cells and when you master that I'll say you've reached your full potential.

Now I personally think that players should have access to shield cells as some players don't want to become master pilots. Some just want to fly around a bit and shot things cause it's a game and it's fun and shield cells allow them that pleasure. Just don't think that it should be a trivial 100cr. 3000cr sounds more like it. You can still make good money on big targets but if you're having to use them on small bounty targets, it's maybe just time to practise a little more.


As for weapons to take out shields before cells can regenerate them, try railguns or plasma accelerators.

limit SC's to class 3 modules only. Job done. Large ships wont be able to carry as many and wont be able to refresh shields as fast, smaller ships still wont be able to carry as many but they'll be more effective per charge. So instead of being, who has the most it becomes a tactical decision.

I really like this idea. Not sure if it'll give the Eagle or Sidey a chance though.

Surely what we're after is not limiting how many you have, but limiting how quickly/frequently you can use them? If someone wants to go out bounty hunting with 2-3 of them onboard so they don't need to return to ammo them back up so often, is that a problem? What we're surely trying to stop is people using them in parallel so they can use them 2-3 times at the rate of others, or for 2-3 times as long as other people in a single fight.

Limit there frequency to one shield cell per X seconds no matter how many you have onboard (your distributer can't cope with it more often) and just make sure that gap is long enough to prevent uber shields, but still offers a tactical recharge periodically.

This also makes sense. Something like a 30 second cooldown or a minute.
PvE: even against an Anaconda, you shouldn't need to use them that often.

PvP: Means you can't keep popping them continously while still firing on your target. Probably have to use one and boost away before coming in on another attack run once the cooldown is over.

 

[Jimac]

By far the best and the most simple solution would be to remove them from the game and everything goes back to way it was. As far as I know no-one was asking for health potions and I'm not quite sure what problems they were supposed to address.

Unfortunately having put them into the game, removing them will upset those that use them as either a win button or even just a not lose button.

Not removing them will also upset a fair proportion of the players as well.

Nothing this game changing should just be dropped into the game without testing, we are getting a test server where the Wing mechanics will be tested. Rather than rolling out a long series of tweaks which are going to cause more divisions among the players, test the cell tweaks on the test server.

 

[Morbad]

And if you could only fire off a shield cell once every minute (or some other fairly long period)? No matter how many you had?

Then they wouldn't be worth their weight.

Actually, the incoming nerf that has been announced threatens to do the same thing, and I will have to carefully examine what is more likely to keep me alive...an SCB with a five second spool up, or ~2% less mass on my Viper. It's probably going to be the latter.

Anyway, if it exists, it should have a niche. Otherwise, why leave it in the game...just for clutter?

 

[rj134]

I would have to disagree with your first statement. Cheap shield cells are likely to hamper a player from finding their full potential.

'Oh, I'm loosing to a 'Harmless' Sidewinder, I could either pratice to fly and fight better or I can pop shield cells and just keep on firing at it and still make money on the bounty.'

Try taking down an Anaconda in a Viper with no shield cells and when you master that I'll say you've reached your full potential.

Now I personally think that players should have access to shield cells as some players don't want to become master pilots. Some just want to fly around a bit and shot things cause it's a game and it's fun and shield cells allow them that pleasure. Just don't think that it should be a trivial 100cr. 3000cr sounds more like it. You can still make good money on big targets but if you're having to use them on small bounty targets, it's maybe just time to practise a little more.

Right... except I was talking about combat potential, not player skill potential.

The point is once the latter is maximized, the former is the only concern, at which point ridiculous maintenance costs accomplish nothing except raise frustration due to the grind associated with it. You're not changing anything in regards to the actual combat scenario. All you do is change the equation of cost-effectiveness which is something the rich don't care about while all others suffer needlessly.

If you're gonna balance SCBs, you need to make them fit their niche in actual combat mechanics and stop them from being a one size fits all defense against everything.
Ideally you do that without making them useless altogether, which is something cooldown based mechanics tend to do more often than not. In any case, changing the economics around them doesn't fix the actual problem.

Edit: Neither economics, nor cooldown, nor stacking SCBs is the problem. It's there being very little to no counterplay to them. That counter should be thermal weapons. Going about it that way opens up way more opportunity for fun gameplay than some arbitrary cooldown or use restriction.

 

[lexandro]

How about instead of cells recharing shields.......they just harden them a bit (ie increased resistance). Still a good option to reduce incoming fire, but not so excessive as to require you to bust the shields down multiple times before it drops. Say they add like 40% resistance for X seconds. Would make it more tactical in their usage, and more of a skill item rather than an iwin. It also brings them more in line with chaff dispensers.

*cough*

Still say this is a good solution imo. But of course I am biased since its my idea.

 

[NeilF]

Then they wouldn't be worth their weight.

Actually, the incoming nerf that has been announced threatens to do the same thing, and I will have to carefully examine what is more likely to keep me alive...an SCB with a five second spool up, or ~2% less mass on my Viper. It's probably going to be the latter.

Anyway, if it exists, it should have a niche. Otherwise, why leave it in the game...just for clutter?

Fine... But the premise that no matter how many units you have, there is a set time between being able to fire off shield cells? Be it 5 seconds or 1 minute?

ie: If the time was 15 seconds, you couldn't just flick between three shield cells firing them off at 5 second intervals!

 

[rj134]

*cough*

Still say this is a good solution imo. But of course I am biased since its my idea.

And it's a good approach IMO.

If it were me on the drawing board I'd have them buff kinetic & explosive resistance while active and then look at balancing their HP/s vs laser DPS and possibly lowering resistance to laser a little bit.

This would balance them in a way that falls in line with what a shield is supposed to do without putting any arbitrary restriction in place. It allows tanky ships to stay tanky but opens up opportunity for counterplay. You would never be able to outheal laser & railgun fire and even if you are (enemy lacks DPS), you're going to burn a lot more cells than you would right now.

 

[FluorescentBlack]

So seriously, there is still no talk of fixing the repair unit in here. To me, shield cells and the repair unit are so closely linked and still nothing. Bahh.

 

[Adept]

I agree SCBs should go away completely not "nerfed" like this which is a hidden buff for big ships.

Pithy, and worth a quote.

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If you think he's the only one that finds that shield cells have removed all challenge from the game, you'd have to be kidding yourself. "Just don't use it" is no excuse for an unbalanced mechanic. Your "i shot you first so I win" hyperbole is also ridiculous, Elite was never like that before the introduction of shield cells and TTK was PLENTY long enough without them. Besides, your insistence that we should all just spam dumbfire rockets is pretty much the definition of "i shot you first so I win" considering that for most ships, apart from the python, you can instagib if you shoot first. So really, shield cells just encourage instagib loadouts.

Used to be that combat was extended further by smart piloting and maneuvering instead of "press x to not die."

And this one. Well said Johnny. I'd rep you again if I could.

 

[Adept]

Why should it be balanced?

View attachment 9862

That would be the Majestic / Farragut vs. a Cobra. The Anaconda is something like the Blockade Runner

 

[GlyphGryph]

Here's a few alternatives to the current shield cell implementation that I think would play much better. Balancing around cost is the absolute stupidest way to do it, and it's sad that it is apparently the way Frontier is going to play this. But unsurprising, since it's also the easiest way.

Alternatives:
Shield Cell Boost Capacitor (SCBC) - This device does not take any ammo, but does generate heat and an uptick in power costs while recharging. Using it has the same effect as the current shield boosters, but it has a 1-5 minute cooldown depending on the size and class of the capacitor and the size and class of the ships current shields - those factors also effect how much it boosts the strength, obviously. It's power cost while recharging is significantly more than while passive, though it does have a passive power cost. Sizes more than 1 lower than shield size will be ineffective. Fairly heavy. This is something you want to use when your shields are about to fail.

Emergency Shield Restoration Capacitor (ESRC) - Like the SCBC, except it only works on downed shields, and greatly increases the rate at which they restore. In fact, include both of these and let the players decide which is best for their ship, or whether they want to make the sacrifices elsewhere to equip both. If you do equip both or more than one of either, expect to equip heat sinks as well or take a good deal of damage in the process of using them. This is something you want to use when your shields have failed.

Shield Booster - This item, rather than restoring shields, strengthens them, giving you an equivalent of 0-2 more pips in shield power. Of course, using it also costs more power, so don't expect to be using it along with high energy cost weapons unless you want them to shut down. The surge is destructive, so using this actually damages the component, and it will eventually fail. Damage done, duration of boost (15 to 90 seconds) and the strength of the boost. These items are influenced by the size and class of the shield being boosted compared to the size and class of the shield booster - a small shield booster will quickly explode if attempting to boost a large shield. This is something you want to use as often as possible in combat, once you decide it's worth it. Can synergize with a field repair kit.

 

[Adept]

The majority of players avoid PvP by choice and so the OP is suggesting a game mechanic change because of PvP, but if effects PvE as well which most play.

So question is, does it need to be nerfed for PvE play or not?

Complete domination over clueless NPCs who just exist to be slaughtered is good for PvE is it?