Fer de lance and expected python nerf

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And how What other ship balancing are you talking about? The Python is the only ship that is confirmed getting looked at. This is all hypothetical 'what if' talk.

You really think that only the Python will have a balance pass when already it is confirmed Dumbfires have been altered?

Just the DF change alone affects all ships using them thus changing the "meta" and every time we have had a ship balance so far nearly all have had minor tweaks, that's what balancing is, not one ship but a Re-balance of many.
 
What other ship balancing are you talking about? The Python is the only ship that is confirmed getting looked at. This is all hypothetical 'what if' talk.

dumbfire missile nerf will directly affect the small ships the most which relied on it the most imo. So they already are getting a massive nerf.

Same dumbfire missile nerf as well is a direct buff of all medium/large ships who were most affected by dumbfire missile spam strategy.
 
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metzger

Banned
You really think that only the Python will have a balance pass when already it is confirmed Dumbfires have been altered? Just the DF change alone affects all ships using them thus changing the "meta" and every time we have had a ship balance so far nearly all have had minor tweaks, that's what balancing is, not one ship but a Re-balance of many.
And do you really expect the developers to tweak the other 16 (counting new ones) ships to the same extent without player feedback up to the february release? Stop smearing marmelade over my face :)
 
The ASP got nerfed just before release, before that it was too multirole with its extra class 6 mod.

As did the other ships like the viper that had extensive testing, now the Python has been thoroughly tested its time it got balanced.

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A trader with 3 large hardpoints? its still clearly capable of combat ;)

Really? I dont think so...It can defend itself well to run but going straight into combat is a bad bad thing...Just my two cents.
And if anybody comes with the argument: "It can land on medium pads" again, Ill kick him in the nuts :p...Just kidding folks...But truth is that when i flew my type 7 all the way to a python ive NEVER used any medium pads. U can make more money if u are looking for specific (perfect) traderoutes which includes outposts but it is a fact that 90% or more are just too tiny (demand/supply) or too far away to even condsider. So the argument for medium pads is just not viable in my eyes...
 
And do you really expect the developers to tweak the other 16 (counting new ones) ships to the same extent without player feedback up to the february release? Stop smearing marmelade over my face :)

Well every other time ship re balance has happened its been mostly all ships...so yup. Id expect Cobra/ viper changes -maybe minor ones- but clipper and others will also i think get a balance pass.
 
You really think that only the Python will have a balance pass when already it is confirmed Dumbfires have been altered?

Just the DF change alone affects all ships using them thus changing the "meta" and every time we have had a ship balance so far nearly all have had minor tweaks, that's what balancing is, not one ship but a Re-balance of many.
This after DF, SC and python maybe we will be @ a sweet spot , if not I trust them to adjust further. The Viper gets flak, but it is quite the puppy compared to what it was in beta ( so has already had a balance pass, as did the asp when it lost a c6 compartment.)
 
This means that the AI needs to be improved, not that large ships should be overpowered. I would also make an in-game rule that an NPC ship's minimum rank and equipment should be tied to the type of the ship


Very well said about AI improvements needed.

I don't like your proposed rule personally. Not that I think it is bad or sth.

I'd just much rather have a rule that the rank of ennemy NPCs depends on your own rank!

I am dangerous and it would really add a lot of fun to the game if my oponents were only dangerous and up. No matter the ship they fly.
 

metzger

Banned
Well every other time ship re balance has happened its been mostly all ships...so yup. Id expect Cobra/ viper changes maybe minor but clipper and others will also i think get a balance pass.
I hope we'll both look back at this thread when the time comes :)
 
I hope we'll both look back at this thread when the time comes :)

As i already stated the Viper already took large nerf vs big ships with the DF changes so that's already half the problem fixed ;)

Balancing isn't just about 30% off this or that its looking at the bigger picture and making changes to affect the "meta".
 
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Very well said about AI improvements needed.

I don't like your proposed rule personally. Not that I think it is bad or sth.

I'd just much rather have a rule that the rank of ennemy NPCs depends on your own rank!

I am dangerous and it would really add a lot of fun to the game if my oponents were only dangerous and up. No matter the ship they fly.

I don't like that 'Elder Scrolls' type things that (unnaturally) levels enemies, as it ends up feeling artificial and not actually like a world (or galaxy).

What could possibly be done is have some dangerous missions that are gated by ranking, as they only want to hire proven (higher pilot rating) commanders to do the job. In turn, the jobs have nastier opponents, packs etc.
 
In each class of ship, there may be the one that's the best, but there should never be that one ship that is the best of them all. 'nough said.

100% agree, sadly it is the case right now:
- Adder is the best of it's size
- then Cobra
- then ASP
- then Clipper

you can skip every other ships, because you will loose far to much for the very little advantage they would give
 
I'm really not convinced its the PvP crowd, its people that want to be able to kill everything in a viper and can't handle that somebody who's as good as they are in a larger more expensive ship is probably going to beat them.

I can't help but feel they'd sing a different tune if we went and started a campaign to nerf the viper because the sidewinder can't kill it reliably, which I think is exactly the same situation.



+42 on that comment
 
I don't like that 'Elder Scrolls' type things that (unnaturally) levels enemies, as it ends up feeling artificial and not actually like a world (or galaxy).

What could possibly be done is have some dangerous missions that are gated by ranking, as they only want to hire proven (higher pilot rating) commanders to do the job. In turn, the jobs have nastier opponents, packs etc.


good point. or make space and certain systems actually dangerous. And have predominantly only high ranked NPCs or packs of lower ranked NPCs.

I just REALLY,REALLY want this flow of laughable PvE encounters to stop!

Heck. Give me an option to make ED harder just for me! I don't even want more reward for the risk. Just make them low ranked NPCs stop coming.
 
good point. or make space and certain systems actually dangerous. And have predominantly only high ranked NPCs or packs of lower ranked NPCs.

I just REALLY,REALLY want this flow of laughable PvE encounters to stop!

Heck. Give me an option to make ED harder just for me! I don't even want more reward for the risk. Just make them low ranked NPCs stop coming.

oh yea. challenging NPC encounters would be nice to have one day.
 
Having read through some more posts I'm even less sure what the Pythons role is.

Heavy trader?
Trading cruiser?

Heavily armed armoured things normally cost a lot to run and hence make themselves non-viable traders

We don't use type 42 destroyers to transport cargo for a reason

What really is the Python supposed to be?

The other thing that occurs to me is that the Python isn't a naval vessel like the drop ship say. Currently the Python and other ships lack full context because not all ships are out yet. So question is, of the ships to come, are there dedicated naval ships say corvette, frigate, destroyer, cruiser equivalents that would put the Python in its place?

That is the thing: in the lore/earlier games/novels heavy traders have a very specific purpose. If you want to move 200+ tons of algae from one core world to another, you use a T9. But what if you need to transport a heavy load of pure gold, prototype technologies or other extremely high value commodities through high-risk anarchy systems? You would be a pirate magnete for lightyears around. It should be flat-out impossible to do that in a T6/7/9, and that is where the condie and python come in. Heavy duty freighters that can scare off any pirated drooling over what could be his early retirement at a beach villa.

And this is where the problems start: there is no danger. You don't need to use the Python for trading. You can mindlessly drag whatever you want wherever you want, and people are now expecting 2million/hour risk-free profits as if that is normal. So:

1) The Python's main role does not exist yet.
2) Risk-free trading is way too profitable.
3) Because of that other professions feel like unwanted step-children.
4) People are finding new uses for the Python, at which it is unexpectedly good.
5) FD notices this and 'corrects' the mistake.
6) People go nuts.

What needs to happen is anarchy systems should be much more dangerous and offer much better prices. That way normal 'carebear' trading is still possible but less profitable. Meanwhile the Python will serve the traders who like to live on the edge, and the now-vacant battleship role can be filled with a new, dedicated, ship. It will give more choices for all, balance things out nicely and will spice trading up for those who want to. Those who want to play Space Truck Simulator are unaffected as long as they stay out of anarchy systems. By the way, the above somewhat illustrates how interconnected everything is. Giving each ship its own place and function is very, very difficult and I really don't blame the devs for occasionally correcting things a bit. It is inevitable, really.
 

IceyJones

Banned
who uses dumbfire missles on a viper is just about the quick kill instead of a skillful fight. no tactic at all.....no evading, dodging, no staying behind the target........ its GREAT that they are nerfed!
i use beams and rails........the DF does not affect me at all

4 small beams does hurt a python shield already NOW! it takes only 2 good vipers to scare away a python. it takes only as long, as all cells are gone......after the cell nerf, its even more simple.

ppl are just too impatient today....they want the quick success...the easy kill. insta-win button!
 
Why, if your views on game balance are correct, do all professional game designers clearly regard game balance as critically important? Why do the people whose job it is to make games (many of whom now have decades of experience) continuously strive to improve the balance in their games, even knowing that any attempt to do so will result in endless screaming from a certain proportion of their players, if not outright abuse?

Do you genuinely believe that the entire games industry is based on a flawed understanding of the form of entertainment that it makes? Are all game designers, including the ones that make this game (which you apparently enjoy) just idiots?

Or is it just possible that the people who spend their careers (and normally an unreasonable proportion of their personal time) making and playing games might just understand something that you're missing?

Frankly, I care very little about some piece of gear in a fantasy universe having its stats updated to some new—and in all likelihood ephemeral—configuration, but this... this is probably the most sensible, and indeed essential, post I have ever seen on this forum. Of all the internet's flaws, this notion that seems to have arisen that all opinions are equal is one of the truly infuriating ones.

It's why we constantly get expert testimony dismissed with a wave of the "Appeal to Authority" wand; people stating as fact the reasons for professionals doing (or not doing) this or that as greed/avarice/laziness/stupidity; people with no relevant qualifications or background thinking they can disprove a consensus amongst experts using dimly recalled lessons from early high-school. There's a reason it's called authority.

So carry on expressing your opinions, people, but for the love of the Wee Man, next time you're telling FD that they're Doing It Wrong, at least pause to consider whether the situation might not be a little more complex than you realise.

</rant>
 
I think there would be far less people up in arms about the Python "nerf" if the be all and end all of combat in this game didn't just revolve around facing your target. As it stands the only way to succeed in combat is to be more manoeuvrable than the opposition. Facing target = win. Which was why the Python was so good for combat and why the Anaconda remains a trade ship or status symbol. This is not acceptable for larger ships. Turrets and automated weapons need to be far more effective than they are. If FD had announced a buff or fix to automated weapons like turrets and PD at the same time as lowering the Python manoeuvrability this would have perhaps been OK.

I also have a problem with the idea that a 2.5mil Viper can easily pop a 100mil Python. What are we paying for exactly in the larger ships? Why bother trading and then taking the risk of flying around with a 4mil rebuy if some "insect" can just sit behind you and blow you up? The Python should swat Vipers down like a fly and if I'm having a bad day they MAYBE get my shield down, nothing more. If someone in a Viper wants to take on a Python they should have to do it in at least a group of 3 and my turrets should tear them to shreds if they think they can sit behind me in a blind spot.

I ask FD to please ignore the whiners who cannot be bothered to play the game and build the credits required for larger ships, expecting to be able to destroy anything in their tiny little Cobra or Viper. Last time I looked the game was called Elite Dangerous..
 
I also have a problem with the idea that a 2.5mil Viper can easily pop a 100mil Python.

This is not the case and i bet it won't be after the update. Not lost to a single small class ship yet in my Python or to 2-3 of them either to be honest and i bet i won't after the nerfs especially if they have lost their DF capabilities.

Sounds like they won't be able to take shield cells either so gl lasting more than 1 pass in a viper now ;)
 

IceyJones

Banned
automated turrets need NO skill to operate....there MUST be ways to jam them, as we have them now!
skill should lead to success, not only money.....

but to take the possibility of the python to fight with fixed weapons makes this ship COMPLETLY uninteresting for me. as said...as soon the changes hit, i will sell it
 
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