Yea but that's a game rigged by both agility and the level of Interdictor module fitted. If you want traders in Open then there has to be a skill based escape option, or trade ships need heavily rebalancing so they can fight back, or player killing has to have such harsh and enduring consequences that traders can submit with some confidence that they won't be killed.
Design 101 - Players must ALWAYS have choice to avoid or run instead of fight
- Thread starter Yokai
- Start date
Yea but that's a game rigged by both agility and the level of Interdictor module fitted. If you want traders in Open then there has to be a skill based escape option, or trade ships need heavily rebalancing so they can fight back, or player killing has to have such harsh and enduring consequences that traders can submit with some confidence that they won't be killed.
Snakebite
Banned
Stating that 'I respect your opinion, but you are wrong' is not in fact in any way respectfull, so I therefore have to say that whilst I respect your opinion, you are in fact wrong
This I see as the fundamental mechanic flaw right now. There are no safe or dangerous systems, the NPC's are worthless and vrs players it doesn't matter where you are. They really dropped the ball on this mechanic.
It's not rigged if you can't handle the interdiction by either escaping or fighting you leave the area. Why should you be allowed to walk through a hostile system without consequence and thumb your nose at hostiles equipped to prevent you from doing so while you don't have to make any attempts at self preservation or using any thought on your loadout or choice of ship.
Not really. For them to have dropped the ball, they would have had to pick it up first. These are serious points that are on the "they should not have called this GA without this stuff in place" list. It is not that they were unaware, or stupid - this is all in the DDA - they just did not do it in time for the marketing-led guillotine to fall on pre-GA development.
If something is weighted in favour of one side it is rigged. And the rest of your straw man diatribe is off-topic and irrelevant.
Snakebite
Banned
But if the interdicted ship always has the chance to get away then the pirate player is going to get bored pretty soon, and with no pirate players then the game is dead because Without the danger of piracy there is no point whatsoever in playing this game as either a trader or a bounty hunter.
Hyperlethal
Banned
Agree 100% this game is too hard! too much danger! i should be able to fly by myself and get away from anything while laughing about how easy it is. basically, i want free mony and no risk! and i want an in-game trade finder as well!
Alright well keep acting flashy in the hood but don't expect sympathy when you get rolled. It isn't weighted towards the aggressor it's weighted towards the bigger gun, fair enough for me and anyone with some sense.
A choice of "shall I probably die or do whatever I can to avoid" is a decision that sees only one logial choice - try to escape. So there can be no blame on any pilot who does everything he can in order to achieve this - bar Combat Logging of course. Sadly most interdictions appear to be to kill the player, not nicely roll-played piracy.
My posts have been regarding attempts to balance things further - no easy escapes or insta-submits, ship load-out counts. A well-equipped player should easily "win" an interdiction mini-game against a less well-equipped ship. Equally, submission should mean that the players emerge much closer to each other. Escape, fight or submission of cargo is now an option - the latter only if the player isn't just out to kill you for fun.
Having manoeuvrability as the single deciding stat is crazy. Assuming the mini-game doesn't bug out, keeping on vector in a small ship is easy. Having ship mass, FSD Class and Interdictor quality a factor too makes things more interesting.
Maybe it's a simple case of just doing ONE of the things I suggest, i.e. when interdicted you come out of SC much closer to the other player and, when you submit you come out closer still, as the Interdicting player does not have to work so hard. That alone would get you up close and personal, giving a huge advantage to the aggressor. Any threat of "Hand over you cargo, or else!" wouldn't be ignored if you've just had your shields stripped. Just a shame most encounters would be just for the kill though. Equally, using in-game mechanisms, if the act of being ripped out of SC did apply a lot of extra heat to the FSD, that should balance its self. Sure, the player could still try to run, but at the risk over overheating and exploding.
I do hope ED balance this fairly, sure it's a little easy to escape once back in normal space at the moment, largely due to the distance the players are placed apart. For the record I generally stand and fight...it's only if I'm getting my ass handed to me that I try to run, as I know the option is basically escape or death, no handing over of a few tonnes of cargo and get on my way.
Scoob.
My posts have been regarding attempts to balance things further - no easy escapes or insta-submits, ship load-out counts. A well-equipped player should easily "win" an interdiction mini-game against a less well-equipped ship. Equally, submission should mean that the players emerge much closer to each other. Escape, fight or submission of cargo is now an option - the latter only if the player isn't just out to kill you for fun.
Having manoeuvrability as the single deciding stat is crazy. Assuming the mini-game doesn't bug out, keeping on vector in a small ship is easy. Having ship mass, FSD Class and Interdictor quality a factor too makes things more interesting.
Maybe it's a simple case of just doing ONE of the things I suggest, i.e. when interdicted you come out of SC much closer to the other player and, when you submit you come out closer still, as the Interdicting player does not have to work so hard. That alone would get you up close and personal, giving a huge advantage to the aggressor. Any threat of "Hand over you cargo, or else!" wouldn't be ignored if you've just had your shields stripped. Just a shame most encounters would be just for the kill though. Equally, using in-game mechanisms, if the act of being ripped out of SC did apply a lot of extra heat to the FSD, that should balance its self. Sure, the player could still try to run, but at the risk over overheating and exploding.
I do hope ED balance this fairly, sure it's a little easy to escape once back in normal space at the moment, largely due to the distance the players are placed apart. For the record I generally stand and fight...it's only if I'm getting my ass handed to me that I try to run, as I know the option is basically escape or death, no handing over of a few tonnes of cargo and get on my way.
Scoob.
For mine, if we were talking a simple situation of making it harder to escape an interdiction to enable true piracy, then I might be open to it. BUT the problem will be the mindless psychopath murderer - there's too much of this going on with the perpetrator claiming it is piracy, which it's not. It's just murder pure and simple (not withstanding of course that your CMDR 'escapes' anyway . . . .). There needs to remain a viable way for traders to escape or otherwise the morons who insist in just murdering for their own lolz will just escalate. Make it harder for me to avoid having my cargo stolen sure, but at the same time make it impossible to avoid a cold blooded cowardly murderer (especially the sort who's doing that simply because he's a jerk)? No thanks.
Last edited:
This. Some of you think I'm talking only about Open. But I'm also talking about Solo/Group, and in those two modes the NPC "pirates" do NOT appear as blips on your radar. It's always clear skies and then BAM, you're in the interdiction minigame. It's also NOT about running with max cargo slots and carrying no shields, etc. I pointed out in the first page or two how even in a "trader with teeth" Python config with 4 turrets on the top and know-how to keep the NPC pirate in range of all 4 turrets with 95% uptime, I still walk away with hull damage if the NPC is an Asp or larger.
I never have but I'm failing to see the issue. Submitt, boost, boost, jump. Rarely for some reason submit doesn't work, then it tends to be boost boost boost boost boost jump. NPC's are VERY bad at keeping up with a boosting player. The only hull damage would be from the interdiction itself.
Hello,
I remember very well - gate campers for example
And finally, like you said, the developers switched the game more and more in the PvP direction. The traders left. Game Over!
Way before i decided to give ED a chance, Jumpgate and the forum wars came to my mind. I started reading the forums and after a few threads i knew how this game will run in openplay. I started my game applied for a non fighting group and since then i play there.
I really would love to play in open, but as long as the balance is not given, i stay out.
What are <imho> solutions?
Make pirating more dangerous -
Elite cops, especially in wealthy systems, who are going to hunt them down, whenever they show up.
Not chance to payoff bounties on their head or at certain places with hackers - but for really big bucks
Give freighters -
Turrets, which are not going to be confused by a cloud of chaffs. Eventually manned with NPCs, to hire at a station
and/or
Friend/Foe missiles - fire and forget. The pirates can shout them down
and/or
Fighter drones
and/or
NPC wings to hire
That's just things freighters would have for shure, with the technology we have in ED.
If a pilot is to cheap to give up cargo space and/or money, it is his own fault if he get catched/killed by pirates.
And there is also, of course <imho>, one other thing.
People who wanna play really as pirates why not take over a bit responsibility and help the game?
Hunt down the griefers and the 'i kill any ship, just for fun. Why? Because i can do it' idiots.
On the other side, make runs into the anarchy systems mor lucrative.
Aallow weapons and other Equipment as (illegal) freight, not only mounted in the slots. Smuggling could also be better paid. This weapons are only to buy at the black market.
Example: A group of pirates order a couple of Lasers which they can't get regulary. A privateer takes on the mission. He gotta get the risk to get out of the station and meet at a certain point with this group. Ok, from here on, the pirates form on his wing to protect their cargo. Oh another group of pirates get informed and want to steal the cargo.....
There are so many things, which could be implemented to give us roleplay.
I also would recommend, that ships are still paid by the insurance, but just the pure ship given back plus the amount of money you paid for extra stuff. And we have to look for all the goodies by ourselves.
Example: The Cobra costs roughly 380.000 with basic equipment. Somebody has outfitted it for another million. Whe he blew up, the insurance gives him the basic ship + his expenses for the outfitting in cash. Remember smuggling weapons?
i never thought about this before i started writing this, it just came to my mind while writing and some things are probably not well overthought, but i bet some of this ideas would bring a lot of roleplay and dynamic into this game and last not least - it would be better balanced.
Jumpgate?
I remember very well - gate campers for example
And finally, like you said, the developers switched the game more and more in the PvP direction. The traders left. Game Over!
Way before i decided to give ED a chance, Jumpgate and the forum wars came to my mind. I started reading the forums and after a few threads i knew how this game will run in openplay. I started my game applied for a non fighting group and since then i play there.
I really would love to play in open, but as long as the balance is not given, i stay out.
What are <imho> solutions?
Make pirating more dangerous -
Elite cops, especially in wealthy systems, who are going to hunt them down, whenever they show up.
Not chance to payoff bounties on their head or at certain places with hackers - but for really big bucks
Give freighters -
Turrets, which are not going to be confused by a cloud of chaffs. Eventually manned with NPCs, to hire at a station
and/or
Friend/Foe missiles - fire and forget. The pirates can shout them down
and/or
Fighter drones
and/or
NPC wings to hire
That's just things freighters would have for shure, with the technology we have in ED.
If a pilot is to cheap to give up cargo space and/or money, it is his own fault if he get catched/killed by pirates.
And there is also, of course <imho>, one other thing.
People who wanna play really as pirates why not take over a bit responsibility and help the game?
Hunt down the griefers and the 'i kill any ship, just for fun. Why? Because i can do it' idiots.
On the other side, make runs into the anarchy systems mor lucrative.
Aallow weapons and other Equipment as (illegal) freight, not only mounted in the slots. Smuggling could also be better paid. This weapons are only to buy at the black market.
Example: A group of pirates order a couple of Lasers which they can't get regulary. A privateer takes on the mission. He gotta get the risk to get out of the station and meet at a certain point with this group. Ok, from here on, the pirates form on his wing to protect their cargo. Oh another group of pirates get informed and want to steal the cargo.....
There are so many things, which could be implemented to give us roleplay.
I also would recommend, that ships are still paid by the insurance, but just the pure ship given back plus the amount of money you paid for extra stuff. And we have to look for all the goodies by ourselves.
Example: The Cobra costs roughly 380.000 with basic equipment. Somebody has outfitted it for another million. Whe he blew up, the insurance gives him the basic ship + his expenses for the outfitting in cash. Remember smuggling weapons?
i never thought about this before i started writing this, it just came to my mind while writing and some things are probably not well overthought, but i bet some of this ideas would bring a lot of roleplay and dynamic into this game and last not least - it would be better balanced.
I agree about npc interdictions not showing needs to be changed and they should show as triangles as well because currently they don't. Having them swarm just you while spawning near you is annoying as well.
Still there are safe systems so that's where you should stay if you don't want to risk it, because ultimately no matter how they balance it they intend to have dangerous systems and a trade ship just isn't going to cut it there reliably.
Yes, you are correct NOW. The way it works NOW. And because of that, I have no problem with how interdictions work NOW. The thread and OP is a caution to FD designers to carefully consider what they've stated they're thinking about doing NEXT with interdiction mechanics.
Honestly, I love PvP. I'd prefer to fight _every_ interdiction. I'd prefer the interdiction frequency to be what it is now in 1.1, but ONLY if the _cost_ factor were more balanced. The bigger the ship you get into, the more ridiculously egregious and unbalanced the upkeep and maintenance costs become. What can take a Cobra pilot or a Viper pilot (who have never owned anything larger) only 22 minutes to recoup in lost cost due to combat damage takes a Python a whopping 102 minutes. And practically speaking, since everyone can quickly and easily bootstrap into a T6 or Asp (and then fly a Viper/Cobra on the side, using the T6/Asp as their moneymaker), the _real_ cost of losing a Viper/Cobra scales down to only 6 minutes of trading time to recoup the loss.
Meanwhile, the Python does _not_ scale like this. And larger ships like the T9 or Anaconda? the scaling is even worse.
Sure, if every interdiction that I decided to fight only cost me at most 6 minutes of trading time to recoup the loss, I'd be all for lots of hard interdictions and fighting every single one. But that's not how it works NOW.
There's no doubt that this is largely the case currently vs. NPC's. However, players can boost too so they might catch you if they're a lot faster. Still, the current way does feel a little too easy for the victim for the most part. The worry is that FD's "fix" for this will swing things in entirely the opposite direction. So, no way can a trader "win" the mini-game vs a more nimble ship, unless said player is a novice. Once in normal space, either via loss of said mini-game or submission, they are unable to FSD for reasons. If those "reasons" were that the victim over-extended themselves in their poorly equipped ship and overheated their drives now cannot FSD, that's fine. If it's a case of Interdiction = FSD's take longer to cool down...just cos... then that's rubbish.
Considering the games whole heat mechanic, rebalancing Interdiction so the FSD of both ships generated extra heat during the interaction, well the cooler kit might have an advantage once back in real space. I.e. The trader tries to boost away, but is carrying too much heat so cannot, nor can he go back into FSD right away. Or, attacker is carrying too much heat, so he cannot boost nor reliably fire his weapons right away. So, "winning" the mini-game is only part of the story.
Scoob.
Respect for new innovation attempt yes a definite 10/10, well done FD!.
Coloured with much contempt for not changing flawed and specious (correct sounding but wrong) game design choices. Such as cargo mechanics debt economy and insurance. Driving a wedge between traders and combat, alienating and fragmenting the player base.
Make the game you want to play, ok great. Making mistakes is part of the process, not fixing them... that's the problem.
I'd love to know how many websites out there are devoted to ED player tactics, especially for Traders. From what I can see most make a beeline to Thrudds etc and expect everything else to be plain sailing.
There are some good posts in this thread suggesting possible techniques and updates FD could apply to enhance this aspect of the game. I agree with the idea of Anarchy meaning just that, not just another system on a traders rare run.
But players have to make the effort to get the most out of the game, case in point: 'Do you do something else while trading?' https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=114789
Watching netflicks, reading forums, playing other games etc etc Not reading up on how I could escape an attacker by dropping a heat sink, silent running and boosting in another direction etc.
There are some good posts in this thread suggesting possible techniques and updates FD could apply to enhance this aspect of the game. I agree with the idea of Anarchy meaning just that, not just another system on a traders rare run.
But players have to make the effort to get the most out of the game, case in point: 'Do you do something else while trading?' https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=114789
Watching netflicks, reading forums, playing other games etc etc Not reading up on how I could escape an attacker by dropping a heat sink, silent running and boosting in another direction etc.