Imbalance of Progress in Elite Dangerous

[Quineloe]

I have to say it's pretty absurd we have people here defending stuff like 4k bounties on deadly Eagle AI pirates.

really, he's deadly. But his bounty is too low for him to have even destroyed even one other ship.

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FD,
please do not balance profitability in all careers. Trading is all about money

Statement remains incorrect, no matter how often you repeat it.

 

[elayeth]

What gives you the impression that boosting other careers progression curves would need to make trading no longer the fastest career for making money?

Agreed. If boosting is called balancing... that is ok with me. I have an impression that people would like to earn as much and as quickly i.e. by shooting things (only) as they get in trading. And with that... I am not ok.

 

[Lenroc elisav]

FD,
please do not balance profitability in all careers. Trading is all about money so it should stay the most profitable. I also think that statistically speaking, trading is the most boring profession (excet for mining) for many cmdrs... The more boring the career the more profitable it should be. Otherwise many people would drop trading...
I do not trade much. I explore the most of my time. I do not want exploration to be as much profitable as trading... because I would really stop trading between my jourenys...

This is why the rest of us can't have nice things in life!!!! So what if only the people that enjoy trading trade? If you enjoy exploration why don't you want to be able to progress through it. What kind of ... "logic" makes you say what you said in the quote?

For the record, I don't give a fox out a a wood of foxes if I make as much money as a trader or what not. Just want to be able to progress through combat and enjoy the bigger ships w/o having to divorce .

 

[elayeth]

I'm in 110% agreement with everything in the OP. The gap between trading and the other professions is entirely too large. There's plenty of risk accompanied with exploration and combat, but very little reward and the fact that they can be considered "hobby professions" is just disgusting. Elite: Dangerous is all about giving you a big open galaxy and letting you make your own way in it. The "professions" that aren't trading shouldn't be considered hobbies, they should be considered viable career choices in-game.

And in real life. Why do people choose careers that are not that profitable? Why are there even huge gaps...? ;-)

I think that bount hunters and pirates have the biggest problem with the "gap"... as they seek bigger ships and firepower...

I dont feel that need when exploring with my asp.

 

[Quineloe]

And in real life. Why do people choose careers that are not that profitable? Why are there even huge gaps...? ;-)

I think that bount hunters and pirates have the biggest problem with the "gap"... as they seek bigger ships and firepower...

I dont feel that need when exploring with my asp.

Did you earn an Asp through exploration? No? Your argument is invalid.

 

[elayeth]

This is why the rest of us can't have nice things in life!!!! So what if only the people that enjoy trading trade? If you enjoy exploration why don't you want to be able to progress through it. What kind of ... "logic" makes you say what you said in the quote?

For the record, I don't give a fox out a a wood of foxes if I make as much money as a trader or what not. Just want to be able to progress through combat and enjoy the bigger ships w/o having to divorce .

What is progression? Does it mean more money and bigger ships always? Not always... not for all. I like to trade from time to time. I like the idea to do it because it is the most profitable career. Its all about money after all. For me its like... trading = work, exploration = fun. Why should I work when I get money having fun? However, even exploration may become boring if this is all you do. Its like you watch tv all the time instead of working. You enjoy it the most after the day of work... ;-) I know... the logic is not strightforward... but is present in real life and in many other games...

 

[Ydiss]

Agreed. If boosting is called balancing... that is ok with me. I have an impression that people would like to earn as much and as quickly i.e. by shooting things (only) as they get in trading. And with that... I am not ok.

It's not going to be possible to make both careers exactly equal. So, no, I don't think anyone expects that.

But into what was said about trading being dull, so therefore it must be the fastest pay...

As dull as trading can get after a long time, it's currently the only career that has any true progression. It's also very fun to start out as a poor trader in a hauler and work your way up to a millionaire.

It puzzles me when so many claim trading is dull therefore must make the most money. Do you actually believe FD intended to design their game on the idea that it's dull?

I've traded up to almost 400m profit. Doing it for too long can become mind-numbing. But it was thrilling to hunt for more lucrative trade routes and very rewarding when I found each one that was better than the last. And every time I could afford to upgrade, it was exciting and I felt I'd Achieved.

It wasn't incredibly challenging but it was a lot of fun.

I wish combat had that same buzz. It was exciting to improve as a combat pilot and upgrading to better ships was an achievement. But, firstly, I was able to defeat the hardest ai before gamma, in a Viper, and, secondly, I achieved those ships 100% through trade.

FD have priorities. I understand that. And I firmly believe boosting combat progression is on their list - they'd be crazy if they thought what we have is perfect - but I'm equally certain that boosting combat progression is low down on that list.

And one reason for that will be... We can just trade to make money.

However, if trade wasn't the money making love child of the game and the most we could make doing anything was as fast as combat is now, barely anyone would own pythons, anacondas or t9s. In a way, that would at least mean no one would know any better.

But it's exactly because we can print, farm and conjure up to 7-8m every 60 minutes that we're acutely aware how lacking other careers are.

I enjoyed trading progression. It's the only career that has any. And it's the only career that could be left well alone for months on end because it's the most complete game mechanic we have.

Anyone trying desperately to assert that FD will never change combat or other careers is deluded. And I can only assume it's because they actually like it how it is now.

 

[Distance]

Why is that a problem. Would you like to grind for exploring, bounty hunting, etc. as long as for trading to be able to be on top of the profession?



BTW, the goal of the game is not (necessarily) having the biggest ship or the most money in the bank.

If you choose it as your personal goal and then choose the most ineffective way to achieve it, then it's up to you.



E has never been a "space combat game". Combat was always one of the options to spend time in it, but you could avoid it almost all together and be perfectly happy.



If you don't need the other spells in your career path, then it's fine. If you want to have all the expensive stuff, you have to do something in return, rather than just expect the game to provide you with enough money while doing everything else.

On my T7, you won't find any weapons mounted on the hardpoints. Personally, I haven't seen the advantage of big ships in combat (yet?). I can win almost all fights in my Cobra, and an Anaconda or Python would have huge repair costs if something goes wrong.

I think you missed all the points in this thread. I played the original and fe2 so I know it's not purely a combat game but whether you like it or not frontier are marketing it as a combat game and not a trading game, read the marketing text next to the buy button and you'll see they don't even mention trading as a possible career choice.

I'm a trader right now btw but after 700 hours of playing ed it's blatantly obvious that there is no profession scaling to any career than trading.

We're not asking for each kill to be 1mil we're asking for the careers to scale logically, not between one another but within the career it's self.

 

[elayeth]

Did you earn an Asp through exploration? No? Your argument is invalid.

In trading. You should trade from time to time too. You will enjoy your other career after that "boring grind" more... ;-)

Ok. I stop... otherwise you call me a troll. What I wanted to say is that the gap should stay but maybe not that big.

 

[Drakedge]

You technically don't need bigger ships for trading if that's what you find fun. If you want to play a combat role and want a big ship then you're forced out of that combat role in to trading as your profession has no progression.

A good analogy is to imagine you were playing skyrim as a mage and you couldn't afford to buy spell books unless you spent 100 hours as an archer as there was no built in progression for a mage.

This is exactly what I am getting at. Also yeah I did title the post incorrectly but at least it's getting people talking about it. I shouldn't HAVE to go change professions just to be able to progress in the game.

Could I grind out 20k bounties on average in RES sites and nav points, yeah I could, but to go from a cobra mk 3 to a python which from what i see would be the next logical upgrade path, I would need to kill 2,800 master or higher wanted cobras and greater. Which by the way, there's no real reliable way to find those. That would also only afford a basic model python... then guess what I have the python and now, back to killing wanted cobras again?

There's no progression with the other paths. Exactly as stated above:

A good analogy is to imagine you were playing skyrim as a mage and you couldn't afford to buy spell books unless you spent 100 hours as an archer as there was no built in progression for a mage.

I shouldn't HAVE to play another role just to make progress in the game. I am okay with trade being a higher profit value, my argument is that no other facet of the game can make viable money to get to the next carrot on the stick.

As I mentioned in the original post, I went out well beyond 350 light years past the point of civilization and found a really nice system. Full of resources and riches. Hell I even took a refinery and mining equipment on my Asp to find good resources and i did. I found a ring that had nearly 100% pure platinum around a dead star. Now some faction back in civilization SHOULD have been begging for that kind of information. All I got was a shiny title on the system, and maybe 200k credits, and it wouldnt have even been that much had it not been for being the first one out there, and there being a ton of bodies to explore.


There's no scaling. It feels as though for combat, once you have your cobra mk 3 you hit the top, sure the other ships above it can do a better job, but you have earned your profit potential at that point. You wont find an NPC wanted for more than 160,000 out there. Even still the ones that ARE worth over 100k are super rare, almost as rare as an earth like planet outside of the core worlds (exaduration, but still)

 

[Ydiss]

What is progression? Does it mean more money and bigger ships always? Not always... not for all. I like to trade from time to time. I like the idea to do it because it is the most profitable career. Its all about money after all. For me its like... trading = work, exploration = fun. Why should I work when I get money having fun? However, even exploration may become boring if this is all you do. Its like you watch tv all the time instead of working. You enjoy it the most after the day of work... ;-) I know... the logic is not strightforward... but is present in real life and in many other games...

Trading has progression. The rags to riches story. Starting off with 1000cr and finding the best ways to make money, buy better ships to do the job and eventually becoming a millionaire.

Combat could have progression. The harmless to elite story. Starting off with 1000cr in a sidewinder, killing weak targets, learning how to fight, earning money, buying better ships, beating stronger and stronger opponents, getting more lucrative and challenging missions, gaining rank and reputation, buying the most feared ships in the galaxy and becoming rich by being the best.

Exploration could have progression. Starting off with 1000cr, doing minor exploration in populated space, buying better ships, exploring further out, getting contacts to travel to specific locations 500, 1000, 5000, 20000 light years away. Earning more money for galaxies on the far side, buying the best ship for the job and, by the time you're elite, earning millions. And being given the most challenging systems to reach and return from intact.

Of course, you might not want that progression. Which is fine. You don't have to pay any attention to it.

Would this make the game worse?

Or, is it really sensible to assert that this is how the game will always be:

Starting off with 1000cr. Wanting to be an elite combat pilot, earning lots of money competing huge, challenging contracts. Or wanting to explore the galaxy, reaching the far side and being paid very well for huge journeys.

Then trading for weeks to afford the ships to do the above when you quickly realise it'll take months to afford them if you actually stick to your chosen career...

I enjoyed trading. It's fun because it's the only career with tangible progression and it feels amazing to earn so much money. I'd still have done it, despite wanting to explore and bounty hunt more. However, I didn't want trade to be the only way to realistically afford lots of ships. And I can completely sympathise with players who don't want to trade and just want to have that same awesome feeling of starting out small and working towards something huge.

To be fair, exploration actually has this but it could be a lot better.

And combat hints at it until you hit the solid wall of realising 150k is the most you'll get paid, no matter how long you play.

7m an hour. That's my trading achievement. It took a lot of play time to get there and it was fun. I'd be deliriously happy if combat topped out at 60-70% of that, and only once you are elite.

 

[Lacoy]

Personally, I haven't seen the advantage of big ships in combat (yet?). I can win almost all fights in my Cobra, and an Anaconda or Python would have huge repair costs if something goes wrong.

And that sez about everything there ist to say about it. I concede there is a big imbalance... so what? It would be a problem, if you were forced to grind as everything cool in this game would need money. But it doesn't. Hardly ever seen a space game, where money mattered less. You do need that first couple of millions, ok, but you can hardly avoid making it just by finding your way around the game. Fill a cobra with rares, get lost jumping around, *boom*, there is you million. After that, almost everything is immediately open to you. A three million cr. Cobra will kill anything and everything out there. A three million cr. T6 fit for exploring will make it to the galactic core. And a 60 million python will barely double the profits you make on a T6, a ship you buy your first week playing. All the rest is skill. A battle-scarred swashbuckler in an A Class Viper will kill a noob in a 150.000.000 cr Anaconda 100% of the time.

So yea, there is a difference in money making speed, thing is: money doesn't matter. Money buys you nothing. You can make it all the way to Elite on equipment you earned your first weekend playing.

That's what I call balance, folks. That's awsome.

Happy profits,
Lacoy

 

[Quineloe]

In trading. You should trade from time to time too.

That's just your opinion, and opinions can be wrong.

 

[soapmak3r]

Seems to me, from my current experiences...Bounty hunting at RESs is the best way to earn credits when looking at it from a purely fun/profitability ratio.

The problem then becomes: once you have earned enough credits from bounty hunting and gone from a nicely kitted out Viper/Cobra to a nicely kitted out ASP, the re-buy costs are double the price of a stock Cobra and repairs are very costly.

I have only started with my ASP, but my tendency is to avoid fighting in it and purely trade/explore. Exploration does not get you much for your considerable time and effort, and trading in rares, while profitable, isn't that exciting.

I almost feel like having an ASP is a waste, considering I could use a Type 6 as a purely trade/exploration vessel and it would be much, much cheaper to maintain/replace.

There is very little incentive for a bounty hunter to progress past a Cobra, mainly because the rebuy/repair costs are so cheap, it's very combat capable and has enough cargo space to make trading rares a (relatively) quick and easy way to earn a few million credits to upgrade your ship and keep you solvent.

It took me a considerable amount of time and effort to earn my first 5 million bounty hunting with a Cobra...Then considerably less trading rares in a Type 6 to get to 10 million where I finally bought an ASP...and after putting about 13 million into an ASP to kit it out for a balance of trading/exploration/combat, combat in the ASP doesn't seem like an appealing prospect.

Now I am looking to see what I could potentially be flying next, and how long it might take me...The realisation is quite depressing. Even with the profitability of trading, which realistically is the only viable method of earning enough credits. Part of that is how uninteresting trading is.

TL/DR -

Trading is profitable, but ultimately extremely repetitive.

Conflict zone earnings are pathetic and don't reflect the risk vs reward at all.

Bounty hunting (particularly at RESs) can be fairly profitable, and is arguably the most fun/satisfying way to earn credits.

Exploration data is nowhere near valued enough for the time and effort required to scan everything in a system (a high metal content planet has to be worth billions, if not trillions, for example, so the discovery reward should be considerable)

Smuggling is not worth the time or effort, unfortunately.

Mining...I just don't even see the point.

So...Dog fighting is arguably the most fun activity in the game, but you will never be able to experience combat in any ship beyond a Cobra unless you commit to trading for a very, very long time.

 

[Kowboat]

Trading has progression. The rags to riches story. Starting off with 1000cr and finding the best ways to make money, buy better ships to do the job and eventually becoming a millionaire.

Combat could have progression. The harmless to elite story. Starting off with 1000cr in a sidewinder, killing weak targets, learning how to fight, earning money, buying better ships, beating stronger and stronger opponents, getting more lucrative and challenging missions, gaining rank and reputation, buying the most feared ships in the galaxy and becoming rich by being the best.

Exploration could have progression. Starting off with 1000cr, doing minor exploration in populated space, buying better ships, exploring further out, getting contacts to travel to specific locations 500, 1000, 5000, 20000 light years away. Earning more money for galaxies on the far side, buying the best ship for the job and, by the time you're elite, earning millions. And being given the most challenging systems to reach and return from intact.

Of course, you might not want that progression. Which is fine. You don't have to pay any attention to it.

Would this make the game worse?

Of course it would! You see, it's not enough that trading be the most profitable profession... it must be the most profitable by several orders of magnitude. How else would everyone who already wasted a disgusting amount of time grinding justify that effort to themselves?

 

[reverendK]

Most players at the moment are traders. Why should it bother them that everybody's progression stops 3 or 4 ships in when they get to keep working toward the next big thing? They shouldn't. Their game works fine.

The problem is that OUR game doesn't. And instead of dealing with their own problems and continuing to trade they like to pop in here and tell everyone to quit whining about problems that don't concern them.

I don't think anybody is suggesting trade should get nerfed. We just want to see the rest of the professions to give us a reason to keep playing after our first million.

I'll just keep exploring in my asp (which I had to trade to get up to) I'll come back.in from the dark when the game gives me something to do without trading that actually leads somewhere

 

[Lenroc elisav]

What is progression? Does it mean more money and bigger ships always? Not always... not for all. I like to trade from time to time. I like the idea to do it because it is the most profitable career. Its all about money after all. For me its like... trading = work, exploration = fun. Why should I work when I get money having fun? However, even exploration may become boring if this is all you do. Its like you watch tv all the time instead of working. You enjoy it the most after the day of work... ;-) I know... the logic is not strightforward... but is present in real life and in many other games...

Keep yours and give me mine. The game will be reacher with both of our mind-sets around. And really this is a game , no ... really a game, no reason to import all the shortcomings of RL into it. If you want more RL maybe ... get out more .
Final note, this is my enjoyment after work if you are too young to get it, enjoy it while it last my young padawan .

 

[SiriusSeven]

Let's be clear. Profit per hour does not need to be the same across professions at a given experience level (e.g., number of hours played). I don't think anyone is stating this. What many people want, however, if for earnings to not differ by orders of magnitude. (e.g., 2 million for exploration vs. 200 million for trade). That, I agree, is insane. It has to be a bug. We should not need to use a logarithmic scale to compare earnings across the professions.

 

[Drakedge]

Let's be clear. Profit per hour does not need to be the same across professions at a given experience level (e.g., number of hours played). I don't think anyone is stating this. What many people want, however, if for earnings to not differ by orders of magnitude. (e.g., 2 million for exploration vs. 200 million for trade). That, I agree, is insane. It has to be a bug. We should not need to use a logarithmic scale to compare earnings across the professions.

Yup pretty much, i keep saying but it remains true, im okay with trade being the highest profit option. It should be the highest (with out manufacturing capabilities and a player driven economy) What I am not okay with is the HUGE gap that is presented with trade vs ALL other options combined still not coming close to the numbers.

As well as the lack of progression. Combat you are capped at the Cobra mk3 you will earn the most amount of money once you have that ship.

Smuggling - Cobra mk 3

Mining - dont really know but probably the type 6 if not the cobra again.

Explore - i like the asp, but you can easily do it with a sidewinder if you wanted to.

Trade - exponential growth with each new ship.

 

[Kiltak]

Here my thoughts on the subject. I agree that trading should be the most profitable profession in the game. That being said ot shouldnt be the only way to make a real profit in the game with out feeling like a grind.

There sort of a circle to way an econemy works. You have miners who go mine for resources and then sell them to neareast station. Traders come in buy that resource and take them to stations that will offer them morw money. Places a where players might go to build ships. In return there is risk of pirates attacking ships. So tradera might higher pilots to offer escort for a small fee.

I also think they need to introduce large capital ships that would make getting around galaxy faster. Now before you get your panties in wad let me explain how it would work.

These capital ships would be really expensive like a couple million credits to just build at special space ports. It require construction fees and would take days if not weeks to construct. Then you tac on the resource you will need to actually build the ship. This would make capital ships hard to come by. Players wouls have to really work at building them.

Now some of you are going to say that if these ships could get around galaxy that it would destroy exploring. You would be right so there has to be a limit. So make these capital ships unable to jump to unexplored Sol. In order for them to jump in to a Sol it needs to have been explored first.

Doing these few things would add more depth to the game. It would give the econemy more of a reason to exist and make other profession a bit more profitable. Last but not least it could create more conflict and whats a good space flight game with out conflict and drama.

Any thats my opinion any way.