Open letter to Devs, Why I am now combat logging and what to do with this pirate.

[woodhouse]

I think there should be 4 standard modes: open PvP, open PvE (current Mobius), private group and solo.
The reason I would want this is that there are too many players don't know about Mobius, and Mobius is nice but would be even better with a lot more players.

Alternatively, instead of PvE (players versus environment), there could be PwP (player without piracy) where PvP bounty hunting is OK, but piracy is not.

EDIT: not only is this better for those who don't want to run into player pirates, it is also better for the pirates who get upset about combat logging and mode switching.

 

[Johnny Cyclops]

Here's an example of a points based infraction system that FD might want to copy from for use in the ED game. It comes from that ever popular FD Forums Rules. Could be easily adapted for the trigger happy pirates out there.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=115239&p=1788188&viewfull=1#post1788188

 

[Mithos09]

I agree with the op: Bounty hunting Players is broken because pirating players can easily clean their bounty. Therefore, seen form the perspective of a trader, the piracy experience (as a "victim" of piracy) is broken, because it can't be countered.

The other aspect that's broken in open play: As a trader, if you lose your ship, you'll have wasted much more time than any other profession because of the high values of ship and cargo. This calculation already accounts for the higher gains. (Generally speaking, big expensive ships in open are unreasonable at the moment.)

Mobius is a good idea. But it's only a workaround, the balancing problem has to be fixed by frontier.

I "pulled the plug" the other way: I switched to solo.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

In my opinion, the perfect thing to do here is to implement a better criminal system, sort of like Ultima Online had.

Anyone here play in those days? Here is how it worked:

You had three Status Flags for players, which was Blue (Innocent), Gray (Flagged for a criminal activity) and Red (Murderers).
The system worked where no player could attack a blue player without consequences. If you attacked a Blue player, you got a temporary (time limited) Gray status. While Gray, you are "criminal flagged" and anyone can attack you. The gray would eventually wear off (in case you did this by accident, etc) however if you killed the player you attacked you then got a "murder count" against you. After 5 murder counts, you became Red.

Once red you were now a (semi) permanent criminal. You could no longer go to towns that had guards thus you were penalized by being limited to criminal based towns so you could shop and bank items. Anyone could attack you at any time also since you were red, however you could defend yourself without getting more murder counts.

Each murder count had a time limit stamp on it which if I recall was 8 hours of game time. So, if you murdered 5 people and then waited 8 hours one would drop off and you would be blue again, however if you killed 10 people and had 10 counts you are now going to be red for 8 hours per count til you hit four again (48 hours). So lifetime criminals have to CHOOSE this life and once they do they cannot easily just go back and forth like you can in ED by simply paying off the bounty.

Some system like this could work and work very well in ED.

It is dumb that I can go out and kill 5 people then pay a bounty and am "Clean" again.

Another old UO player here And yes, I agree. Although not perfect, UO's criminal flagging system is/was streets ahead of Elites.

The sad thing is I remember 18 months ago heated debates on these forums about this exact same thing, when the old school UO players on here highlighted the glaring loopholes and pitfalls at how Elite was gearing up to handle criminal activity from what we were being told at the time. FD obviously never saw those posts, and the usual crowd shouted down those of us who were concerned that the game would become farcical if FD didn't nail this particular aspect from the off. "FD knows what they're doing" was all we got in response. And here we are, 18 months later with a system that does nothing but frustrate a lot of players trying to play by the rules. It seems FD haven't even looked at how other games in the past have overcome some of the fundamental flaws associated with criminal loopholes, and stuff like combat logging. Even a legitimate log out while under threat; a 15 second timer, epitomizes the naivety being shown here, its a gimmick, nowhere near adequate or a viable feature that dissuades players from cheating the system.

As a side note, one thing I had hoped FD would do better than UO would be to add some imaginative consequences for being a criminal. Something along the lines of players who are caught by the authorities (and depending on their crime) are sent to penal colonies for a short period of time to do menial in-system missions of ferrying rotten fish and biowaste around outposts until their debt is paid (via a timer).

A bit like GM jail in UO, except the player actually still gets to play the game

Some free shard UO games that came much later implemented penal colonies where players could still play the game but where limited to who they could interact with and where they could go. Basically confined to an island or a jail/dungeon until their debt timer was paid off. And even the criminals enjoyed it. Not sure if that would translate well to Elite though as that roleplay mentality doesn't seem evident in Elite at the moment.

 

[ianw]

Agree that the paying off the bounty thing seems bizarre for stuff like ship destruction. Obviously it's intended at the moment but it really doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[Spiridon]

As a side note, one thing I had hope FD would do better than UO would be to add some imaginative consequences for being a criminal. Something along the lines of players who are caught by the authorities (and depending on their crime) are sent to penal colonies for a short period of time to do menial in-system missions of ferrying rotten fish and biowaste around outposts until their debt is paid (via a timer).

A bit like GM jail in UO, except the player actually still gets to play the game

The best idea I've heard in a long time. Rep!

 

[kapitankev]

If it were me, I'd make bounties permanent, get rid of "stolen" or "marked" cargo, hot goods sell for regular price but, only at black markets and membership in EFP (Elite Federation of Pilots or whatever it's called) is revoked, so,,no more ranks for criminals. Furthermore, I'd give criminals a chance to pay the commander in order to wipe a bounty with the choice to accept payment and therefore clear the perp up to the victim,if the criminal ever decided to go "clean". I'd also mark all clean commanders with bounties determined by their rank (novice, expert,master etc.) so bad guys could collect for removing them, just like criminals are. Also, all criminals will be red on clean commanders scanners and clean will be red on criminals scanner.

I'd also introduce another power into the galaxy, underworld, I guess I'd call it, that's small, but, is just the opposite of regular powers like Feds,Emp, etc. They have system scattered throughout the galaxy, their own stations and outposts and would treat "good guys" just like bad guys are treated in the existing systems.


"Bad guys" get to exist with the penalty of being booted out of the EFP while gaining the ability, like everyone else, to thrive, if they have the skill.

As it is, there's hardly any risk or reward for being a bad guy and there's no way to tell a PK commander from a good one until they open fire. There's things on both sides that need tweaking, IMO, and the above would go a long way to fixing it.

This is a great suggestion! I can't stand the whole stolen cargo thing. Make piracy pay better and increase the risk. High risk/High reward! that should apply across all career paths. At the moment piracy pays very little and there's very little risk to the pirate, certainly from the police anyway. (Other players are always having a pop at me)

It seems like FD, realising that piracy is great fun have made it a paupers choice of career. Perhaps if it was more lucrative we'd have even more pirates.

 

[ianw]

Update re marked cargo;

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=121331&p=1903533&viewfull=1#post1903533

 

[QziQza]

im really liking the pirate rep suggestions.. the level of rep at any given time would guarentee an 'x' value bounty that would sit seperately to any accumulated bounties that arnt paid off. the only way to remove pirate rep in a given territory, faction systems etc would be to do missions to 'make up for your crimes, on the fringes of that territory of faction system. it would need to be progressive and not flag you pirate imediate though, players should have the opportunity to try it for before deciding on that particular life of crime, maybe a few runs would suffice, not flagged but stays on your recoed for a month or something? this kind of system puts the pirate in the position of needing to play it careful, working from the fringes of organised space, attacking the careless or brave, or being totally cavalier and daring by hitting targets in policed areas. is this not what pirating is meant to be? if its done in the right way it could mean the pirate, if they chose, could potentially lead a double life.. they could pirate imperial systems while progressing in the fed navy or vice versa, they could even trade where they were unknown. that to me sounds like the way it shoud be, i wouldnt mind giving it a go if it worked that way. pirates should need big 'brass ones' to really play the role properly, im only hearing the occasional tinkle.

 

[kapitankev]

I totally disagree. Combat log, by design of the game, is allowed. The game should be designed in a way to prevent this, but it isn't and that is not a players fault. Also, the game should work as intended to not want to make people to do this. The OP in this case is right actually, at least in my opinion. The criminal system is broken, and the OP shouldn't be banned.

Also it's "losing" not "loosing" - I hate that spelling error

jibber jabber, the design of the game does not allow combat logging, it makes it possible but that's not the same thing.

The op needs banning for this....if anything can ruin ED it's combat logging and hacking. "greifing", killing in stations etc....are all exploits....pretty much another way of saying the killer is better at the game than you. That doesn't mean the exploits shouldn't be fixed but punishing people for playing withing the rules of the game is ridiculous. What other things am I not allowed to do because someone might consider it an exploit?

Ganging up on a trader?
Offering escort to a trader then betraying then in deep space?
Pretty much anything anyone might consider unfair.

 

[Taygeta]

Surprise?

Well, there's a surprise - pirates using dirty underhand tricks. That's a firts!

Take care out there.

 

[kapitankev]

Update re marked cargo;

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=121331&p=1903533&viewfull=1#post1903533

EXCELLENT! I have to say I think FD are moving in the right direction, slowly but surely.

 

[EddyRockSteady]

EXCELLENT! I have to say I think FD are moving in the right direction, slowly but surely.

How is a delay in the implementation excellent? It is still going to be implemented as planned, just in a later update. I don't understand, people scream blue murder at the principle but now that it's being delayed for a week or three all is OK?

What has changed?

 

[McDosy]

A nod of agreement at the OP. Piracy is the risk of trading on the most profitable routes, but what is the risk of piracy? There isn't any because you can pay off your bounties. You shouldn't be able to pay off a bounty. That's not how bounties work.

 

[MahdDogg]

First let me make it clear, I love Elite, the game, the universe, the idea.... Elite Dangerous is the multiplayer Elite that I have dreamed of playing since we discussed the idea as kids back in 1984.
ever since the original Elite caught my imagination the very premise of travelling the stars making your way in a dangerous galaxy is one that appeals to me immensely and I really want to see this game succeed.That is why I am a kickstarter backer, and have played since premium beta.

I am well aware that ED is a work in progress, that's ok, the game can and should evolve, and certain key features that are currently missing will be implemented in good time i'm sure. I can wait a while to see Thargoids, and experience re-entry into atmospheric flight. neither am I in any great hurry to be able to get out of my ship and walk around. I can wait for all these features because at least in theory there is plenty to do and see whilst sat in the cockpit of my ship.

Now whilst you guys are doing a great job so far, the basic galaxy generation is great the flight mechanics are great, and the views beyond the canopy are a joy to behold. And although I have enjoyed many hours of gameplay so far. I (and others) are experiencing a great deal of frustration with some fairly basic game mechanics and balance issues that are completely wrecking the gameplay.

I and many others have posted and discussed to death some of these issues already, but whilst the game development is clearly progressing nothing seems to be getting done about a these tiny issues that are causing people to leave the game in droves (Ok i don't know if people are leaving in droves, but if a dedicated long term fan like myself is feeling fed up then its not a good sign).

I despise people who ruin other peoples gameplay by combat logging, or use cheat by using the solo mode swap exploit to avoid risky situations but I am now finding certain gameplay mechanics are forcing me to do just that. And I am seething about having to even consider doing so.

You see I decided that I wanted to play as a bounty hunter, and i've played that way almost exclusively for three months or so, (hundreds of game hours I bet) I have a fully tooled up Cobra and have acheived the rank of expert and earned a few million credits hunting down NPC pirates, but in all that time working as a bounty hunter I think I have only come accross two players with a wanted status. Its so frustrating to be a bounty hunter and not find any real targets. And its not for the lack of trying, I have been from one end of populated space to the other, camped out in anarchy's hung around rares trade routes, I have followed the most wanted lists, and done basically everything possible to locate pirates, but all to no avail....Very, Very frustrating. people on these forums have often declared that there is a lot of pirate activity around Lave, but I've spent many hours hanging out in Lave scanning every ship that comes past, nothing........ It is really drepessing being a bounty hunter in such a target devoid game. I think this should not have been called Elite: Dangerous at all but Elite: Tame & Easy

Now, having tested the Fer-de-Lance in the 1.2 beta I decided I want one in game, and as i'm so frustrated with bounty hunting and it doesn't pay much when you end up wasting all your time chasing shadows. So I decided to get the creds together through a spot of rares trading.

I swapped my cobra for a Type 6 transporter in Leesti and being as there are no pirates anywhere and the odd AI is so easy to defeat I took a single low powered beam laser and enough shield to survive a dodgy landing, and jumped out to Lave to get some brandy.

GUESS WHAT HAPPENED ON MY VERY FIRST TRIP TO LAVE AND WITHIN 5 MINUTES OF PLAYING AS AN UNARMED TRADER ?????

Yep , I get a guy in a fully tooled up Imperial Clipper demanding my cargo ! the BEST bit is that I recognise his name as i've seen him around on my travels as a bounty hunter but because he has always appeared CLEAN on my scans I have ignored him and let him go on his merry way. And now as a trader I am faced with dumping my cargo or being destroyed by him.

I can not tell you guys just how angry I am at this encounter.... Basically this guy is going around pirating and simply because of the STUPID game mechanic that allows him to wipe his criminal record constantly he not only gets away with murder but the same gameplay mechanic is ruining the game for anyone want to bounty hunt.

Now please don't misunderstand my reason for logging, I have no problem whatsoever with people playing the pirate role and i'm NOT doing this to avoid piracy which I see as a genuine and healthy aspect of the game. I would never normally take the easy way out of a tight spot by combat logging, no my reason for logging out is that given thatI cannot treat him as a pirate when i'm playing BH so now I will refuse to allow him to act as pirate against me when i'm playing trader, so I pulled the plug and logged off, and that is exactly why from now on I will be pulling the plug at ANY attack from a player that is showing as clean for exactly that reason, either they should be genuine pirates with a wanted tag that would allow bounty hunters to hunt them, or I will refuse to acknowledge them and engage.

And furthermore what should happen if I catch up with this *pirate* when i'm in my tooled up FDL in a few days time ?
Should I attack him as *I now know* that he is a pirate and accept the stupid gameplay mechanic that will then list me as the bad guy and make me wanted.
or should I go along with the stupid gameplay mechanic that effectively says this guy is innocent and should not be attacked even though he has in fact committed piracy ?

And whilst its not for me to tell the guys at Frontier that are generally doing great job how to write their game, I have to say that this simple to fix mechanic really is making the game miserably unplayable as a bounty hunter (at least from a multiplayer perspective)

Come on guys this is a easy one to fix and would revolutionize the gameplay for us bounty hunters. Just don't let them clear the bounty for xx days, or make it permanent in the issued system *or something*. Personally I'd like to see it linked to reputation so that your criminal status gradually improves if you do *good things* and ideally it should also diminish with both time and distance. But please just do *something* to make bounty hunter a viable playable type.

For anyone playing as a bounty hunter being able to actually find pirates is not *a nice to have* its *game critical*

Whilst I don't agree with the combat logging, I DO agree that we pirates should not be able to clear our criminal records so easily. I wear my bounties as a badge of honour when I pirate, making entering space with potential bounty hunters a risk that I have to choose to take.

 

[lonewarrior]

A nod of agreement at the OP. Piracy is the risk of trading on the most profitable routes, but what is the risk of piracy? There isn't any because you can pay off your bounties. You shouldn't be able to pay off a bounty. That's not how bounties work.

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No that's not right
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You should be able to pay off a bounty to a certain extent, within reason to allow for accidents ( such as if you gain more than 100,000 over a short period even if paid off you can't clear your bounty for 24 hours)
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Ive never had a bounty of more than 1000 up until yesterday, and those bounties were where I fell for he trick of someone interdicting me, firing and missing on purpose so I hit them first
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Then yesterday I was testing my weapons in a nav beacon shooting a wanted cobra when I fired my guns on my python and a type 6 with no shields crossed my path, killing it in one shot landing me with 26,000 bounty
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So your saying that people should be punished for accidents?

- What about if you go into a station without requesting docking because you forget or because your a new player and didn't understand?
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Cool, now I'm a criminal FOREVER because of a stupid little mistake
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Lets also start punishing people when ships fly in front of you when you firing such as police vessels, now your a criminal FOREVER
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More on topic:
Pirates and bounty hunters are both a good thing, combat loggers arnt
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There is ONE sole reason to combat log and that's if
you are 100% sure your facing a hacker

 

[Hrafgeir]

As a pirate, paying off your bounty regularly so that you can avoid all the consequences of the lifestyle screams 'carebear' - wanting to play the way you dictate without any inconvenience.

The system needs modifying as many have suggested, with bounties for the most serious crimes becoming difficult to shift and tied to the ship the crime was committed in - no more getting your mate to blow you away in a Sidewinder and going back to life as normal. Removing the ability to insure your ship if you have a high enough bounty would sidestep this possibility. I don't imagine William Kidd or Bartholomew Roberts worried about whether their ships had all the right permits and documentation before slipping out to sea.

 

[mapesdhs]

I posted here with suggestions as to how an improved trading system (demand/supply spiking & 'gold' rush effects) would make MP better for everyone. Thoughts anyone?

Ian.

 

[Snakebite]

As a pirate, paying off your bounty regularly so that you can avoid all the consequences of the lifestyle screams 'carebear' - wanting to play the way you dictate without any inconvenience.

The system needs modifying as many have suggested, with bounties for the most serious crimes becoming difficult to shift and tied to the ship the crime was committed in - no more getting your mate to blow you away in a Sidewinder and going back to life as normal. Removing the ability to insure your ship if you have a high enough bounty would sidestep this possibility. I don't imagine William Kidd or Bartholomew Roberts worried about whether their ships had all the right permits and documentation before slipping out to sea.

I hadn't realised that you could clear your bounties by getting ship blown up, sure the criminal record is tied to the commander and not the ship ? If i've got this wrong then its even worse that I thought, but again an easy fix. Just make the criminal record survive a ship loss, how simple is that.

Look at it this way, say i'm a fugitive in the UK convicted of murder and I get my car written off in a motorway accident, I wouldn't suddenly become 'innocent' have had to fork out for a new car would I ? No the criminal record should not be tied to the ship and cleared upon ship loss, it should be more persistent than that and actually relect your activity in game.

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Salute Commanders!

Here Here! UO player here from start of it... hmmm by that time I was...out of my 30's excellent system, and no idea how hard to port over to ED? +1 rep sir!

Not sure the Ultima online system would be appropriate for ED, but a tiered criminal status is certainly needed.

 

[Snowdog]

I know Dev has a lot to do but they need to get more done faster. This is not a free to play game .. yet. Get to work men. You only have a limited amount of time to get this game in great shape (by years end in my opinion). Great start now work harder