See, THAT's why I don't play Open.

[Jordan Cobalt]

Randomly...hmmm nope I agree with SteveLaw, most homocide is not random it is motivated. Terrorism is motivated, people who snap tend to target the people who made them snap.

Random stuff is rare and the realm of true phsychopathic/sociopathic behaviour. The majority of random killings are probably accidental.

Terrorism is motivated towards a government but carried out against its people. Anger spree killings, there's usually innocent people caught in the crossfire, so while they may be motivated they can seem random to the people hurt in them.

It's likely that the attacker of the op, had a motivation. We just don't know what it was. Do you think terrorists announce their motivations before an attack? "Attention everyone, we have a problem with your government, so we are going to kill you now. Any questions? No, ok here goes, bye bye".

 

[Mortifa]

Are you living in a bubble? People get killed randomly and deliberately all the time. Terrorism, people who snap and go on a killing spree.

You watch way too much TV and news.

Most murders involve people who know each other, the statistics prove that. Random violence is very uncommon.

People "snapping" is more a gimic to sell movies than an actual event.

Look, you claim you are a pirate. Okay, which pays off more, bouncing on a ship and killing it, or getting it to give you cargo?

As for just randomly going around killing people, that is just wrong. Going into a war zone and taking on other players that is fun, as long as there is some balance. An honour code, a person in an Anaconda doesn't just go after Sidewinders... sort of thing...

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Safer in as much as authority response on the appropriate scale. I'd maybe like to see a system like GTA's where minor crimes get a certain level of response but the more crime a player does or severity of crime (PKing) brings out the highest stars (maybe even a battleship hops in!) and the criminal has the mother lode of all battles to get away!

That would be nice but there also needs to be a overhaul of the ships and mass lock mechanics. Right now it's insanely easy to escape from anyone, if you know how. It's also pretty easy to not even get pulled over, by simply winning the interdiction minigame.

 

[Mortifa]

That would be nice but there also needs to be a overhaul of the ships and mass lock mechanics. Right now it's insanely easy to escape from anyone, if you know how. It's also pretty easy to not even get pulled over, by simply winning the interdiction minigame.

Well what little support you had from me you just lost....

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

You watch way too much TV and news.

Look, you claim you are a pirate. Okay, which pays off more, bouncing on a ship and killing it, or getting it to give you cargo?

As for just randomly going around killing people, that is just wrong. Going into a war zone and taking on other players that is fun, as long as there is some balance. An honour code, a person in an Anaconda doesn't just go after Sidewinders... sort of thing...

Yes statistically you're more likely to get killed by someone you know than a random stranger. It doesn't happen often but it happens.

However you can't say it's immersion breaking to have random killings when random killings happen in real life.

Hell, even in most fuctional space universes there's some form of killers who fly around and kill people.

- - - Updated - - -

Well what little support you had from me you just lost....

How do you expect criminals to get caught if you can easily escape from the cops? Without an overhaul to the system you could send 10 police anacondas after me 24/7 and I'd still never get killed.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either keep it easy to escape, and criminals and prey can lulz fsd jump away, or make it hard to escape but the criminal has a harder time as well.

 

[Branko]

You don't mean that the ships are actually balanced?

As it is right now a fully upgraded Vulture, Python or what ever can find a new player and take him on with very little fear of losing the battle, which is a major understatement.

Like a level 7 warlock in WoW stepping out of the starting zone and needing to defend themselves against a pimped out level 100 warlock, very unbalanced, as unbalanced as a person who feels fine doing this because it is a game called Eliteangerous.

A true warrior does not attack a lesser opponent, a coward does.

Nonsense; a new player flying a Cobra will clear it's range extremely quickly. The Vulture is relatively fast and very cheap for some strange reason. However, still - a new player will soon be in a Cobra, and a Cobra just leaves it in the dust with the speed

Only a Clipper can catch one (and a Clipper has a number of deficiencies as an actual combat ship). So basically, small ships run from larger ships which overpower them with some exceptions (perhaps there is room for some balancing touches here and there, of course).

Interestingly, my first player kill was a Python in a RES during the community event. He had 5.5k bounty: so I finished off his shields with my Asp's beams then fired off a torrent of missiles which destroyed it's hull really quick. I think he didn't really realize what was going on. Perhaps he killed someone by mistake, or he thought he would get an easy gank and was taken by surprise frim the rear.

Yet, I made a net loss on the kill and he lost, what, a couple of million? Not really big stakes in pvp. Which diminishes the excitement for me a bit.

Anyway, the "true warrior wouldn't attack an inferior foe" is a fallacy and product of imagination.

 

[Morbad]

As for just randomly going around killing people, that is just wrong. Going into a war zone and taking on other players that is fun, as long as there is some balance. An honour code, a person in an Anaconda doesn't just go after Sidewinders... sort of thing...

Any arguments over the morality of anything are inherently subjective. There is no "just wrong", not by any logical argument or objective measure.

It's also pretty easy to not even get pulled over, by simply winning the interdiction minigame.

Most pirates are far better at this than I am, as I can count on one hand the number of times I've even mounted an interdictor.

I always submit because my escape after submitting is essentially guaranteed, if I feel I need to escape, while my ability to win the tunnel game is totally up in the air.

 

[SteveLaw]

Terrorism is motivated towards a government but carried out against its people. Anger spree killings, there's usually innocent people caught in the crossfire, so while they may be motivated they can seem random to the people hurt in them.

All of that might well happen in the Elite universe (although much less frequently than you are trying to sell it) but I think its far more likely to happen in cities and starports than with a multimillion Cr spaceship that you had to work hard to buy and then wander off into deep space to attack random CMDRs. It makes no sense and if it happened at all it would happen exceedingly rarely and the whole Pilot's Federation would be after that very bad apple.

 

[Mltdwn]

A true warrior does not attack a lesser opponent, a coward does.

Yup... but your mistake is assuming anyone is a true warrior, or that anyone is unhappy with the title of coward. I mean Pat Garrett was considered a coward for the way he took down Billy The Kid, to the point that it destroyed his law enforcement career though he made enough friends and money off of it to be able to deal with it. Money may not buy you happiness but it sure makes misery a heck of a lot more bearable.

Heck most of our lawmen at the time of the US's great expansion (which I associate Elite with) were little more than hired and paid killers who would just shoot you often times if they didn't like you. Even the 'heroes' of the OK Corral when studied from the History aspect rather than the folktale/hollywood aspect were pretty big scumbags who took and did what they wanted.

A true warrior does not attack a lesser opponent, a coward does.

Yup... but your mistake is assuming anyone is a true warrior, or that anyone is unhappy with the title of coward. I mean Pat Garrett was considered a coward for the way he took down Billy The Kid, to the point that it destroyed his law enforcement career though he made enough friends and money off of it to be able to deal with it. Money may not buy you happiness but it sure makes misery a heck of a lot more bearable.

Heck most of our lawmen at the time of the US's great expansion (which I associate Elite with) were little more than hired and paid killers who would just shoot you often times if they didn't like you. Even the 'heroes' of the OK Corral when studied from the History aspect rather than the folktale/hollywood aspect were pretty big scumbags who took and did what they wanted.

All of that might well happen in the Elite universe (although much less frequently than you are trying to sell it) but I think its far more likely to happen in cities and starports than with a multimillion Cr spaceship that you had to work hard to buy and then wander off into deep space to attack random CMDRs. It makes no sense and if it happened at all it would happen exceedingly rarely and the whole Pilot's Federation would be after that very bad apple.

Problem is, you are coming at this from the point of view of modern day.... Instead I think it would be better to come at it from the point of view of the time of western expansion. Life is cheap (the cost of a bullet essentially), and those who succeed when attempting what they think is a 'great' thing can profit mightely or be utterly destroyed. Different point of view than what we would have from the nice safe comforts of our existing life. Course I am from Oklahoma, and my grandparents and older grew up living right next to Indian land, most were criminals and scumbags (my great-aunt was Bell Starr, and on the other side of the family my cousin was Pretty Boy Floyd who hid out at my great-grandmothers in Guthrie), and were part of the land rush so I have a bit of a different point of view.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Yes statistically you're more likely to get killed by someone you know than a random stranger. It doesn't happen often but it happens.

However you can't say it's immersion breaking to have random killings when random killings happen in real life.

Hell, even in most fuctional space universes there's some form of killers who fly around and kill people.

I think we should have an additional in-game role then;

Currently: Trader, Pirate, Bounty-Hunter, Explorer

Additional : Reaver

"Reavers are considered the lowest form of being who prey indiscriminately. When spotted in non-Anarchy systems, they are hunted on sight by the authorities and bounty hunters alike. Extra incentive is given to hunt Reavers down by way of large financial compensation or other rewards such as increased ranking within factions or an accelerated Elite ranking. Pilots who kill indiscriminately have their ship status marked as "Reaver" by the Pilots Federation."

If this were done in-game, and if the Crime & Punishment system were implemented better - this might just work fine, as Reavers would be discouraged from entering Federation or Alliance or Imperial systems, and thus encouraged to keep in Anarchy space. Anyone who felt like a bit of PvP could decide to either enter Anarchy space to battle against the Reavers, or if said Reaver themselves wanted a bit of PvP they could venture into non_anarchy space to be hunted down by players and NPCs alike.

 

[GibMeister]

I like the idea of earning Evil ranks like alignment in D & D so a player would have a good neutral or evil alignment or maybe ranks. Ultimate good player would be rank Saint....? Or Evil would be called Darth? lol .

.
I have to say at this point i thought for a fleeting moment this thread was about me. I am a player killer...its a game after all..
nothing personal...
no evil intended..
you wouldnt meet a nicer guy in real life. Last night i weakened.. in a conflict zone i was attacked....i turned and retaliated only to find it was a player in a Viper, i was in my Vulture.. his shields were down...i kept boosting and firing my pulse laser but he was too fast for my vulture...i kept after him as i normally kill any player i find in a warzone its a real rush like no other in Elite! Anyway i had no chance of catching him but he still didnt engage fsd...but he messaged me! First time ever anyone has commed me....he says his engines failed and he sitting duck....i sent back to him that i will let him go.....but i wanted to show boat like in Top Gun...so i caught up with him. He was floating helpless but i got message he was firing up FSD so i thought i would fly real close to him and waggle wings etc...you know just show off! Well i hit boost and i was a bit close and i rammed him! Oops! Of course he died and i felt a real idiot! I couldnt say sorry as he vanished from comms so i headed for nearest port as i guessed he would respawn there...which he did... he wasnt too happy but i said sorry, offered recompense...dropped a ton of beer..they didn't have gold in Edison Terminal. ..i think he forgave me as he added me to friends either that or he is going to track me throught the friend thingy! His name was cmdr Dansi2 i think...am at work so havent access to my PC.
.
The point is being a player killer doesnt mean u r a griefer or ganker...its fun to fight real players!.
.
Whats wrong with being evil in games anyway its just escapism? !

 

[PhazonAran]

Anyway, the "true warrior wouldn't attack an inferior foe" is a fallacy and product of imagination.

What are you looking for then, if not for a challenge ?

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Most pirates are far better at this than I am, as I can count on one hand the number of times I've even mounted an interdictor.

I always submit because my escape after submitting is essentially guaranteed, if I feel I need to escape, while my ability to win the tunnel game is totally up in the air.

Pirates do have a lot more practice so they will naturally be better than most other roles.

One thing you (universal you, not you specifically) also have to realize that pirates can use the same means to escape as you. Any way non combat ships use to escape pirates and killers can and will use as well.

I think we should have an additional in-game role then;

Currently: Trader, Pirate, Bounty-Hunter, Explorer

Additional : Reaver

Not a bad idea as long as the effect isn't permanent and is somewhat forgiving so pirates don't get lumped in with killers.

 

[Ghostwind40]

SC'ing back to the station from a RES, and a CMDR interdicts my Viper in his Vulture and just kills me for no reason. Didn't want anything, I hailed him, no reply, stowed my weapons, no reply, was drifting helplessly, no reply. I'm not that bothered, it was only 144k rebuy but it's 144k this guy took off me with no profit for himself or anything. In an hour of open play I've met 4 CMDRs, 2 killed me, 1 talked to me, 1 sparred with me. I know, it's only an hour but still..why bother?

I have to admit, I really want to play in Open more often, and I've defended it quite a few times, but lately it's just been too annoying to fly in and I'm not sure I see the point of it anymore unless you just like to kill or be killed by other players.


It seemed like at the start the majority of CMDRs would be more about the social interaction, including some RP or whatever. The "bad guys" were more willing to try and pursue an actual profession (pirate, smuggling, etc), with the primary goal to get people to surrender or drop cargo. Now that the game has had a significant time after release, most of that has gone out the window, and the "bad guy" players have grinded out enough cash to get fur de lances and pythons and are just running around killing for the sake of killing instead. They don't bother to "pirate" or "smuggle", they don't ask for cargo, they don't want to talk, they just want the stats that say "I killed X players". Which is stupid since the majority of kills don't come from any kind of challenge but from some poor guy in a much weaker trading ship, or newbie in a sidewinder without a clue. This just makes more "normal" or "good guy" players switch to private pve groups to avoid them, which makes Open have even less social interaction, more gankers, and like a snake that eats it's own tail something that destroys itself.


Honestly I see ZERO reason to play in Open if you are a trader or miner. It's not like you make any more credits for the additional risk you take on. It's not like getting ganked for no reason gives you anything extra game wise or lore wise. At this point I'd have to say if you trade or mine in Open you are probably being a fool. Those professions are better served by playing in a big pve group, hopefully one with rules that still allow interdiction and piracy, but not killing for the sake of killing to get stats.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Terrorism is motivated towards a government but carried out against its people. Anger spree killings, there's usually innocent people caught in the crossfire, so while they may be motivated they can seem random to the people hurt in them.

It's likely that the attacker of the op, had a motivation. We just don't know what it was. Do you think terrorists announce their motivations before an attack? "Attention everyone, we have a problem with your government, so we are going to kill you now. Any questions? No, ok here goes, bye bye".

hmmm modern terrorism is more Ideology/theology than just government hence going after innocent people can be justifed within their own warped logic. But it's still not random though. Crossfire = accidental, don't confuse accidental with random. Random killings in reality are thankfully very rare.

That would be nice but there also needs to be a overhaul of the ships and mass lock mechanics. Right now it's insanely easy to escape from anyone, if you know how. It's also pretty easy to not even get pulled over, by simply winning the interdiction minigame.

Personally I hate the minigame, it's just too "arcade" and not "sim". And it should be easy for a faster ship to evade interdiction, but I don't know about how easy it is for a big heavy trader ship to escape.

I'm not even sure if FD can "balance" out the disparate sides of the Interdiction argument. Other than protected trade lanes where you can't interdict (but profits are less) with alternate destinations that payout more but there's more chance of being interdicted, so the trader can play it safe and never get interdicted or go for greater credits reward and risk it.

- - - Updated - - -

I think we should have an additional in-game role then;

Currently: Trader, Pirate, Bounty-Hunter, Explorer

Additional : Reaver

"Reavers are considered the lowest form of being who prey indiscriminately. When spotted in non-Anarchy systems, they are hunted on sight by the authorities and bounty hunters alike. Extra incentive is given to hunt Reavers down by way of large financial compensation or other rewards such as increased ranking within factions or an accelerated Elite ranking. Pilots who kill indiscriminately have their ship status marked as "Reaver" by the Pilots Federation."

If this were done in-game, and if the Crime & Punishment system were implemented better - this might just work fine, as Reavers would be discouraged from entering Federation or Alliance or Imperial systems, and thus encouraged to keep in Anarchy space. Anyone who felt like a bit of PvP could decide to either enter Anarchy space to battle against the Reavers, or if said Reaver themselves wanted a bit of PvP they could venture into non_anarchy space to be hunted down by players and NPCs alike.

yeah i like this idea.....Reavers could get the full 5 star GTA stylee police response I mentioned earlier.

 

[Slick500]

I play in open mode in the RES's in different systems, I fly a maxed out Vulture, the NPC's are cannon fodder as someone said. I have killed every kind of ship, but never a clean ship. I don't kill guys with a 200 CR bounty on them either. I have encountered several killers who interdicted me, I just boost away and go to FSD and get out of Dodge. If its not an Anaconda or Clipper, I destroy it. When in the RES zones, I watch for big ships attacking weaker ships and I jump into the fight to assist the weak guy. I can make a million or more in an hour killing NPC's. What I can't understand, is why I am wanted after attacking a Hostile ship who has fired on me, just because I haven't completed a scan of said ship.

 

[Morbad]

Honestly I see ZERO reason to play in Open if you are a trader or miner. It's not like you make any more credits for the additional risk you take on. It's not like getting ganked for no reason gives you anything extra game wise or lore wise. At this point I'd have to say if you trade or mine in Open you are probably being a fool. Those professions are better served by playing in a big pve group, hopefully one with rules that still allow interdiction and piracy, but not killing for the sake of killing to get stats.

I only play in open, even when I am trading or mining.

The potential for hostile interactions with other CMDRs while I am doing these things are, quite frankly, the only thing that makes their tedium worthwhile. Also, such interactions most certainly do make me more game wise and improve my skills; I learn from every single interdiction, every shot fired at me.

I credit a near death experience at the hands of Jordan Cobalt, when he interdicted my unarmed Asp twice in a row with a Clipper, for teaching me that mass lock didn't apply hyperspace jumps. I lost a few dozen tons of rares through a shot out cargo hatch (which I do not think he collected as he seemed intent on shooting me down at this point and he followed me into another instance before there could possibly have been time to scoop), but I escaped with my ship, the bulk of my cargo, and more knowledge than I had before. My tactics in such situations are now far more refined, and in the same encounter, I'd be at essentially zero risk of even losing shields now. The whole experience was a blast and highly profitable in all manner of ways.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

hmmm modern terrorism is more Ideology/theology than just government hence going after innocent people can be justifed within their own warped logic. But it's still not random though. Crossfire = accidental, don't confuse accidental with random. Random killings in reality are thankfully very rare.

Collateral damage isn't accidental, it's wrong place wrong time. it may not be truly random but it's certainly not accidental.

Personally I hate the minigame, it's just too "arcade" and not "sim". And it should be easy for a faster ship to evade interdiction, but I don't know about how easy it is for a big heavy trader ship to escape.

I'm not even sure if FD can "balance" out the disparate sides of the Interdiction argument. Other than protected trade lanes where you can't interdict (but profits are less) with alternate destinations that payout more but there's more chance of being interdicted, so the trader can play it safe and never get interdicted or go for greater credits reward and risk it.

There's no other way for a skill based interdiction other than the minigame, we could have a rng interdiction which is luck based but I think that is worse.

Magic pirate-free zones seem more arcadey. Arbitrarily limited someone's actions doesn't seem like good gameplay to me.

 

[Morbad]

Arbitrarily limited someone's actions doesn't seem like good gameplay to me.

I agree.

People should be able to attempt whatever they care to where ever they are. Some refinement in NPC responses to this would help, but we have far more than enough heavy-handed and arbitrary limitations as is.

 

[Mortifa]

Won't work for the same reason you will never see bullies join a fight club: They don't want a challenge to what they do.

They don't want a PvP Group, they want a PsN group (Player slaughters Newbies) club.

+1, sorry I cannot rep you, but that is exactly what I think.

Someone rep this person please..