Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[[VR] Mad Mike]

We get it you don't like pvp. We don't want to force everyone in to open for a noob gank fest we just want to compete against each other without people competing against us from a different game mode in easy mode.

then I can only ask the same question again, why did you hand over the money for a game which openly supported this feature?

No at all. I've always said have multiple community goals and lock them to modes, one for group/solo and one for open. That way you can have blockade goals take place in open without all the traders doing their half of the goal in solo mode. Some players will always choose the path of least resistance but a lot of players will want to do the goals in open. Play it your way? Everyone gets to play how they like without interference from the other modes.
.

actually fair play, truth be told I actually personally would not have such a problem with this so long as it was ONLY the community goals and nothing else.... so long as the same goals were in each mode, though I am sure some would have (possibly valid) objections to it. Solo and group players still get the same content but if open players want to do it all in open, then so be it..... so long as this did NOT become a thin end of the wedge type scenario and that it stopped there, it would be worth it just to put the "stop people swapping groups argument" to bed - though I doubt it would if i am honest..

 

[Globusdiablo]

No at all....

Now that's more like it. I knew you had it in you. Strong post advocating coherently.

 

[Branko]

A separate mode which has it's own background simulation / PP / community goals / etc and it's own save would be the answer to most complaints.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

A separate mode which has it's own background simulation / PP / community goals / etc and it's own save would be the answer to most complaints.

no it wouldnt...... having different versions of community goals could work maybe, but an entire separate universe would make it impossible for 2 friends, 1 who is into PvP and one who is not to ever be able to play together without starting an entire new character.

it would make it impossible for a player who usually plays in open to play if they only had limited internet access for a while.

It would presumably also be fairly expensive to implement... money which could better be spent elswhere rather than screwing over a large part of the playerbase.

 

[SteveLaw]

A separate mode which has it's own background simulation / PP / community goals / etc and it's own save would be the answer to most complaints.

Most complaints, perhaps, but the complaints aren't from the players (or developers) who are happy with the mode system as it is.

 

[Distance]

then I can only ask the same question again, why did you hand over the money for a game which openly supported this feature?

Because I backed from beta and back then it felt like a well thought out idea in relation to the criminality and other sections of the ddf. Quite a lot of people bought the game not on the kickstarter promises but on the ddf pdf some players put together and used to tell everyone to read saying this is what the game will be. Never once did I see any one from fd say "actually take that pdf with a pinch of salt, half the stuff will be missing".

It's worked pretty well until they introduced community goals and open players quickly found out that blockades are a case of "who ever has more traders in solo wins" and combat was "who ever can farm the most kills in solo wins".

I recently played one of the bounty hunter goals with a rl friend in a wing in a group. Instead of being rewarded for playing together cooperatively we actually made less cr that we would have if we were both on our own in solo. The game mechanics actively dissuade cooperative play so any one crying out that open or group has an advantage because of wings are pretty much misinformed.

Now I don't play for cr I play for fun. The only way the game gives you to measure progression is via credits or a meaningless title. If there was something good to do in wings like drop in a strong signal source and actually have a decent fight (the only chance of that is a gold trap but they are few and far between) there would be a point to cooperative play. The only real reason to use wings to have fun is cooperative pvp be it piracy, trading or bounty hunting.

With the new content being bought in with powerplay it seems to be multiple community style goals within warring factions. This has the opportunity to create good meaningful gameplay and lots of chances for meaningful pvp. The only concerns are that if it does become a race for solo because that's the way the best way to compete it will be unfair for players seeking meaningful pvp. This is why the solo vs open debate will be reignited again and it's not actually personal. The problem comes from fd promising everyone equal and valid game play choices but not accounting for the disparity between the modes in some circumstances.

Now that's more like it. I knew you had it in you. Strong post advocating coherently.

Everyone has an off day Btw I don't actually read and remember everyone's names and sigs as generally I only reply to post content rather than people. It's normally after I've made a post that I look at who I'm replying to unless it's an actual 1 on 1 discussion.

 

[Robert Maynard]

A separate mode which has it's own background simulation / PP / community goals / etc and it's own save would be the answer to most complaints.

Given MB's quoted post in the OP regarding a separate BackSim for each mode:

Will at any time solo and private group play be separated into a different universe/database from open play? It's kind of cheap that you can be safe from many things in solo, like player blockades and so on, and still affect the same universe.

No.

Michael

.... and also that in the announcement about the game coming to XBox One stating:

I’m also pleased to announce PC, Mac and Xbox One players will all share the same overarching narrative and galaxy state. That means even more players contributing to the wars, power struggles and Community Goals across the galaxy.

I doubt that what you propose would happen.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Quite a lot of people bought the game not on the kickstarter promises but on the ddf pdf some players put together and used to tell everyone to read saying this is what the game will be. Never once did I see any one from fd say "actually take that pdf with a pinch of salt, half the stuff will be missing"..

Dont get me wrong, I fully agree with you that I want all the content of the DDF so so much, the DDF outlines what to me would be one hell of a game. I would love to know how much of that is certainly coming in time, how much is hopefully coming & how much is now "on the cutting room floor" as it were.

I acceept that sometimes thigns get dropped... it would be nice to have a feel for how much has been however.

 

[SteveLaw]

It's worked pretty well until they introduced community goals and open players quickly found out that blockades are a case of "who ever has more traders in solo wins" and combat was "who ever can farm the most kills in solo wins".

That's not quite what the problem is though is it? The Community Goals are purely about "who can get the most X to Y". The concept of the CG is equally valid in any mode. The problem you see is when players change the rules to include "if we kill players coming to Y, we stop them bringing X". Then the whole things falls apart. Not because of the CG, or the game, but because of the way players use it.

If someone tries to open their window with a hammer, the window breaks. The window isn't technically at fault but eventually we all have to pay more for hardened, bullet-proof glass just to allow for those who might happen to try and open it with a hammer.

 

[Distance]

Dont get me wrong, I fully agree with you that I want all the content of the DDF so so much, the DDF outlines what to me would be one hell of a game. I would love to know how much of that is certainly coming in time, how much is hopefully coming & how much is now "on the cutting room floor" as it were.

I acceept that sometimes thigns get dropped... it would be nice to have a feel for how much has been however.

I'm an old frontier players so have been looking forward to being chased through systems by assasins because I picked up a couple of wanted people. I really want convoy missions where you have to attack or protect a convoy of T9's through a few systems. Stuff like that is what's needed badly.

I do want pve content as well, don't get me wrong but it has to be meaningful and not static. The Lugh cg where you had to "pirate a T9" was the closest that's come but it was really badly done and had so much potential.

 

[Jockey79]

People keep saying that everyone can play "their way". My impression is that competing against "invisible" commanders in Solo is not "playing my way". If I decide to sign up for a specific competitive mode of play, I want a level playing field. That is "my way".

For every 1 ton of cargo someone gives - you can to.
For every one kill someone does - you can to.

You don't get any more level than that.
Whatever anyone else does in this game, you can do it to. To change that, makes it unbalanced.
Right now, we all have the same level of impact on the game as each other.

This has been suggested in Beta and was met with extreme aggressiveness on the forum. The thing is, you cannot enforce a Mobius type of group as long as commanders can leave for Solo, or regular Open, or another group at any time. We have suggested that FDEV provide a mechanic to support such a group (where you cannot leave - to join and have a character locked in that mode is the player's decision), and the forum almost laughed in our face. Remember that discussion?

Ahh, yes - the "I want pew pew targets" debate. Where you want to force people in front of your guns and not let them play the rest of the game.
I believe it is referred to as "griefing" and mode switching is the answer to that.

You can have a PvP group, it has been suggested several times (I even suggested it myself in open beta) - but as you've said, people can come and go and not be your unwilling content, so the idea gets dismissed every time.
After all, where is the fun in pew pew, if your target CHOOSES to be there (as chances are, they are equipped to fight back - and we don't want them fighting back now, do we ).

Nothing is stopping anyone from playing this game or taking part in any aspect of it, we all have equal access and equal influence.
The only limits we have are those our egos place on ourselves.

 

[Distance]

That's not quite what the problem is though is it? The Community Goals are purely about "who can get the most X to Y". The concept of the CG is equally valid in any mode. The problem you see is when players change the rules to include "if we kill players coming to Y, we stop them bringing X". Then the whole things falls apart. Not because of the CG, or the game, but because of the way players use it.

The concepts are valid but the execution is completely different between modes. To make it more like open in solo/group the traders in solo will have to be harassed by npcs carrying rail guns that target drives and will kill for non compliance. If you're in a T6 you'll be interdicted by AI Asp upwards etc.

Then pve player will have the option to either trade for the goal or attack the npc pirates to save their traders. This is the way it works in open.

If you're working against the trade cg in solo/pve there will have to be npcs that you can declare piracy on (no such mechanic for it right now) as hatch breakers are useless. They need to be carrying decent cargo, 10t of synthetic meat in a T9 is laughable. These players need to be targeted by fearsome AI bounty hunters as well. Player bounty hunters will be targeted by fearsome AI pirate hit squads as well to counter them.

You need to set up the AI food chain correctly to make a solo/pve cg as challenging as it is in open.

Solo players need to feel like they're risking death every time they enter the cg system, right now against npcs in cg you can pretty much auto pilot it whether you're for or against the cg.

 

[ianw]

We get it you don't like pvp. We don't want to force everyone in to open for a noob gank fest we just want to compete against each other without people competing against us from a different game mode in easy mode.

Why are you still selecting modes other than open as easy mode?

"Ease" is entirely relative to the individual's ability, ship, ship loadout and whether they "bring friends". If you are in a wing in open it really doesn't get any easier than that against AI or inferior numbers of players. Whereas the solo non combat oriented trader may really struggle against even basic AI. I know that may seem incomprehensible to the uber combateers who can think an Elite Anaconda to death - but it doesn't make it any less true.

If you are saying that contribution an individual can make to the outcome of Powerplay faction achievement or CGs should be scored by "ease" then lets at least do it equitably.

Each individual could be given be measured by game stats for skill in accuracy of fire, evading fire (by manoeuvring or effective use of defensive modules) and a general rating of how they perform against AI.

You then either match people against the nearest equivalent (which I guess many wouldn't want) or you weight the outcome up or down accordingly.

Superior ship (based on weapon and shield scores) v inferior ship - an inferior ship victory gets a bonus - superior ship victory is adjusted accordingly (works in any mode including against AI)

Same goes for high skill v low skill in open.

So if a three player combat wing jumps a trader - they may stop the trade contribution and nullify the trader's individual contribution - but the individual contribution of each of the players in the wing is weighted down because they were in "easy mode".

 

[SteveLaw]

The concepts are valid but the execution is completely different between modes. To make it more like open in solo/group the traders in solo will have to be harassed by npcs carrying rail guns that target drives and will kill for non compliance. If you're in a T6 you'll be interdicted by AI Asp upwards etc.

Then pve player will have the option to either trade for the goal or attack the npc pirates to save their traders. This is the way it works in open.

If you're working against the trade cg in solo/pve there will have to be npcs that you can declare piracy on (no such mechanic for it right now) as hatch breakers are useless. They need to be carrying decent cary, 10t of synthetic meat in a T9 is laughable. These players need to be targeted by fearsome AI bounty hunters as well. Player bounty hunters will be targeted by fearsome AI pirate hit squads as well to counter them.

You need to set up the AI food chain correctly to make a solo/pve cg as challenging as it is in open.

Solo players need to feel like they're risking death every time they enter the cg system, right now against npcs in cg you can pretty much auto pilot it whether you're for or against the cg.

I absolutely agree that the NPCs should reflect Open tactics more (and I honestly believe they will, in time, people will be watching and taking notes of "emergent gameplay"). I just can't really sympathise with the "working against" in the context of the CG. I think the CGs are pretty poorly executed all round tbh, but Powerplay looks to have learned from what it's seen happening with the CGs and have built-in tasks and counter-tasks (that I can't imagine include having to attack other Players). I think it will do what you want without having to break the mode system. But this won't happen overnight.

 

[Distance]

Why are you still selecting modes other than open as easy mode?

I believe my last post covers most of that.

From a solo/pve perspective the ranks do have a bit more influence in player skill (they're meaningless in open) so you need a way for the AI to react to solo players skill instead of the way it does now by throwing shieldless competent eagles pirates asking for 40t of cargo at elite vulture players.

- - - Updated - - -

I absolutely agree that the NPCs should reflect Open tactics more (and I honestly believe they will, in time, people will be watching and taking notes of "emergent gameplay"). I just can't really sympathise with the "working against" in the context of the CG. I think the CGs are pretty poorly executed all round tbh, but Powerplay looks to have learned from what it's seen happening with the CGs and have built-in tasks and counter-tasks (that I can't imagine include having to attack other PvPs). I think it will do what you want without having to break the mode system. But this won't happen overnight.

I don't think it will happen over night either. The problem is most open players feel like they don't have a say on the forums (due to it's bias towards the older players base and more pve orientated players) without getting shouted down by solo/pve players.

This in turns leads to people not bothering to write well thought out posts regarding the game mechanics and in turn leads to posts saying "get rid of solo it's easy mode" style posts and the counter or "if you don't like it you can swap groups" which achieves nothing but hostility and circular arguments.

 

[Jockey79]

From a solo/pve perspective the ranks do have a bit more influence in player skill (they're meaningless in open) so you need a way for the AI to react to solo players skill instead of the way it does now by throwing shieldless competent eagles pirates asking for 40t of cargo at elite vulture players.

Oh, don't go there. I've lost count how many times my Viper or Vulture (no cargo bays) have been pulled over by NPCs, cargo scanned and then they open fire - I cough, they explode.
Frankly, it is annoying.

But unless cargo scanners become useable in SC (and NPCs forced to scan for cargo and finding some before interdiction), I see no way to fix this annoyance.
Would also help real human pirates pick targets, being able to see who has what before an interdiction - so no one has their time wasted for 10T of scrap someone is hauling for a rep mission.

 

[Distance]

Oh, don't go there. I've lost count how many times my Viper or Vulture (no cargo bays) have been pulled over by NPCs, cargo scanned and then they open fire - I cough, they explode.
Frankly, it is annoying.

But unless cargo scanners become useable in SC (and NPCs forced to scan for cargo and finding some before interdiction), I see no way to fix this annoyance.
Would also help real human pirates pick targets, being able to see who has what before an interdiction - so no one has their time wasted for 10T of scrap someone is hauling for a rep mission.

That's the thing you find it an annoyance but it's everyday gameplay in open mode with real consequences. In pve you can splat an npc doing this to you but in open the outcome is generally the opposite. The main difference being, you won't be pulled over in a combat ship by a player pirate unless they suspect you're a bounty hunter and will just kill you there and then.

The scanners are fine but it's the implementation of a proper piracy mechanic that's the problem. Right now you need to pull over a player, create your own text macro, hope the player has text enabled and then scan and negotiate. You can't even pirate npcs effectively and even if you could, unless they are hauling anything worth pirating they could add all the piracy mechanics they like but players still wouldn't pirate npcs.

The fact that the majority of players find the pirate npcs are a minor annoyance to your trading trip proves the disparity of the amount of danger between the game modes, even more so when it comes to community goals.

 

[hunvagy]

That's the thing you find it an annoyance but it's everyday gameplay in open mode with real consequences. In pve you can splat an npc doing this to you but in open the outcome is generally the opposite. The main difference being, you won't be pulled over in a combat ship by a player pirate unless they suspect you're a bounty hunter and will just kill you there and then.

The scanners are fine but it's the implementation of a proper piracy mechanic that's the problem. Right now you need to pull over a player, create your own text macro, hope the player has text enabled and then scan and negotiate. You can't even pirate npcs effectively and even if you could, unless they are hauling anything worth pirating they could add all the piracy mechanics they like but players still wouldn't pirate npcs.

The fact that the majority of players find the pirate npcs are a minor annoyance to your trading trip proves the disparity of the amount of danger between the game modes, even more so when it comes to community goals.

The problem you describe there stems from another missing promise, which was dominant in the DDF if you recall, the "declaration of piracy". It was promoted as the means to state your pirate intent and so on and so forth. Ofc it never made it into the live version, along with a plethora of things that we're still waiting on.

As for the whole debate about community goals, honestly I wouldn't be against separate community goal tallies for groups/solo/open, as it would serve the solo player as well. Maybe make it so that in the solo instance the open contribution is shown as what the other parts of the faction as NPCs did (which would be basically true, treating open players as invisible npc background simulation from the perspective of the solo player).

Honestly, I wouldn't even protest against split game modes, but with only one commander slot and one toon that is not really doable. If we had multiple commanders then yes, by all means. I could have one for open, one for friends, etc. As things are, you have one avatar, one cash pool, and I can honestly see that some don't want to wager all they earned to a random "emergent" ecounter, even if that encounter may never take place.

 

[nedeaalex]

EVERY game you mentioned has a central arbitration server. Elite does not. You could conceivably make everyone play in Open and give them rewards, but with the way that Elite P2P works - urm, it simply would not work. Besides, why reward some players and not others? Should rewards not be based upon individual players merits, and not be given simply by choosing to play in easy-mode group-friendly Open?

Yeah but elite is adevrtised as a MMO. Tell me in which MMO only idividual performance matters...

 

[hunvagy]

Yeah but elite is adevrtised as a MMO. Tell me in which MMO only idividual performance matters...

Neverwinter, DDO, STO, TERA, Uncharted Waters Online, The Crew.. should I go on?

MMOs in general are going in a different directions these days. Most can be played alone just fine, and only offer marginal forced group content. Yes, there is the endgame, but a 5-man instance is hardly a required group effort. You do your job and your job only, tunnel through and grab your loot. That's it.