Why are players treated differently then NPCs?

[Jason Pegasi]

While I support the idea I must disagree that players would not be able to ID humans in the game. They most certainly could. For starters; names. I use the same name here as I do in-game. One look at my name & you could tell that it wasn't a NPC even if you never went to the forums. Also you could tell by how they fly or how they fight, their behavior & all that yadda yadda. It will not be difficult for players to determine who is & who is not a NPC or a player. Again I still support the idea of removing the CMDR tag, just don't kid yourselves that it will 100% hide players from other players because it won't

You clearly have not played this game often. Many NPCs in this game have bizarre names, to name a few, Capt. Flatulence, Noobhunter, Homer Simpson, and some ridiculously long name. The devs love throwing in easter egg names that look like player names. There are others, but I don't have the patience to flip through screenshots trying to find them all.

The game gets very repetitive after just facing NPCs for too long, the copy/paste texts get annoying, the battles are decidedly one-sided if you are even a halfway decent pilot and don't fit your ship like a . Differentiating players from NPCs is crucial to make interactions more interesting, whether they are amiable or violent.

 

[Jason Pegasi]

Exacly this.

At some time most combat pilots wil eventualy find npc's to be easy pray.
So when i see a npc with a bounty on his head i just think... Ahh payday... Easy money.
When i come acros a player with a bounty things are differant. Who knows how good he is? I start to get nervous(thats a good thing) and exited. And then again i think... Aahh payday... Hopefully

So if i didn't know PC from NPC i would get more exitment and immersive gamplay, becouse anything i target could potentialy be a player en thus a threat to me.

I personaly would be happy if we would have the option not to see, i couldn't care less if others still could.

Most of the things you fight in this game are NPCs. It's just a basic fact that you fight and kill more of them than anyone does players.

So the result wouldn't be that everything would be as intense as player combat, we don't have enough energy for that XD

The result, since NPC grinding is more common, would be that you wouldn't really know when you were fighting a player unless you paid very close attention and realized that he was smarter than the average opponent (if he's good)

 

[Jason Pegasi]

Then why do NPCs have a Pilot's Federation rank?

I think, in the lore, that's just supposed to be a threat assessment that relates to the ranks of the PF. I don't know, but that makes sense to me. Also, CMDR is the mark of a PF member. It's established lore that the Pilot's Federation is sort of an old boys club, an elite, small-scale but powerful licensing authority. Getting "in" with the PF and becoming a commander is supposed to be a big deal. The NPCs aren't members, we play as the members. It's a lore way of explaining why NPCs completely suck compared to average players, and we can kill 1000s of them in our gameplay over time.

 

[Jason Pegasi]

Open was fine before Wings, PvP and the rarer PvPP felt good.

Wings destroyed this PvPPPP becoming the norm in populated areas, so pilots who have no interest in guilds etc have left Open to the cowardly Wings of PKers.

If PC wings were a seperate mode, like a massive Private group then Open would be viable again.


Wings turned Open into a trolls paradise, and so Open is abandoned. Very few, if any players find 4on1 to be fun, nobody likes being reduced to a pinata.

Cowardly wings? Wings are literally just small groups of people who fight together. By your logic, armies are all full of cowards because they cooperate and fight together. Squads are composed of 4-8 cowards, because a real fighter would be a idiot and go out on his own and get his brains blown out.

Instead of being a whiney about an EXTREMELY SMALL MECHANIC that allows for some semblance of teaming, a part of EVERY SINGLE MMO, why don't you just wing with other people?

I will never understand the people who buy this game to play it alone and then have the gall to yell at other people for not wanting to play this game like an RPG. It's marketted as an MMO and it has both gameplay styles, why can't you just live and let live? I'm not calling you a pathetic, weak player incapable of defending himself, mad cuz bad. You can play how you want and I will play how I want.

 

[Jason Pegasi]

But you see what I'm saying? The Pilot's Federation is only an in game acknowledgement of an out of game fact. It is a mechanic that allows for the recognition of PCs over NPCs. The terms PF and PC are as interchangeable as NPF and NPC. Therefore we are back at the same argument and the in game definition of PF (as some magical organisation we all belong to) is by and large irrelevent.

If you even remotely understand the purpose of lore, then no, it's not just that. It's also a way, in character, of distinguishing a well-connected pilot from your average joe. It's like a quality stamp, saying that this guy actually knows what he is doing.

Not everyone roleplays, but everyone should understand the purpose of lore at least. This is the devs killing three birds with one stone, explaining why players are much better than NPCs, distinguishing players from NPCs to encourage interaction between players, and having a lore component that actually explains why you're playing as the person you're playing as. Nobody really plays a game like this to play as any old average dude.

 

[teufeldritch]

You clearly have not played this game often. Many NPCs in this game have bizarre names, to name a few, Capt. Flatulence, Noobhunter, Homer Simpson, and some ridiculously long name. The devs love throwing in easter egg names that look like player names. There are others, but I don't have the patience to flip through screenshots trying to find them all.

I have played it often enough to notice no NPC pilots that I have come across have one single name with no capitals like mine. NPC names follow language rules where player names a lot of the time do not. You can also sometimes tell by the subject matter of the name.. a player is far more likely to take the name BigBlackCook than Frontier is to give it to a NPC.

 

[ZombieF1]

I can't think of any good argument against the optional ability for players to see solid scanner blips for both NPCs and players. If everyone not using that option could still see them, they could still be communicated with easily, no different from the way it is now. For some people, this would only improve the game; imagine going into a conflict zone where a solid blip *could* be player (it would often be obvious, but not as easily identified as the rather debug-mode-like instant hollow blip). Denying them the ability to play this way based on... fear and selfishness I guess, seems unfortunate and unfair to me. Some people (like me), generally don't initiate comms with other players (though I usually respond).
.
Personally, I would leave the CMDR tag alone as you have to scan the ship to see it. You could have the blip turn hollow once scanned/identified as CMDR via comms even. Also useful for people who prefer not to initiate combat with other players (PF members).
.
As for the ability to hide your hollow blip from others: that's obviously a lot less straightforward - I'm not sure what's best. If it was implemented then it would obviously have to have minimal impact on ability to interact. I think in some ways it could actually fuel interaction in game, as once someone identifies someone as another player, they may feel more inclined to add them to their friends list - there's no reason to use a solid blip for someone on your friends list. You could still have players not yet identified appear on the comms list (as Cobra MkIII or whatever, as it is now). I'd add a number at the top of the contacts list tab in the comms panel so people could quickly see if there were any players around (just not instantly which ship and where, or rather: not necessarily). For me, a glance at my router often lets me know if I'm alone or not I think it's possible to do it in way that improves the game for most people in multiple ways, without spoiling much of anything. One thing being to address the PKer issue in a way that both might actually prefer (I'm thinking cat and mouse); I think (on balance), I'd have a solid player blip turn hollow if you are attacked by it, unless you were using the more hardcore option where you would still have to scan it or whatever.

 

[Yomamas Fett]

Cowardly wings? Wings are literally just small groups of people who fight together. By your logic, armies are all full of cowards because they cooperate and fight together. Squads are composed of 4-8 cowards, because a real fighter would be a idiot and go out on his own and get his brains blown out.

Instead of being a whiney about an EXTREMELY SMALL MECHANIC that allows for some semblance of teaming, a part of EVERY SINGLE MMO, why don't you just wing with other people?

I will never understand the people who buy this game to play it alone and then have the gall to yell at other people for not wanting to play this game like an RPG. It's marketted as an MMO and it has both gameplay styles, why can't you just live and let live? I'm not calling you a pathetic, weak player incapable of defending himself, mad cuz bad. You can play how you want and I will play how I want.

Ok, 1st I'll just ignore your reductionist, lets call it reasoning, and not comment on your amazing mind reading abilities, and just point out why Wings was an ill concieved and badly implimented idea leading to a drop in players in Open.

Multiplayer games are designed to balance team numbers, sure you can have a giant hunting mode where many players face off against one player, but they are always seperate game modes. ED has 1 default multiplayer mode, this is now Wings mode, a niche subset of the demographic foisted on all, and thus Open is dying.

I am suggesting that this thread is symptomatic of the real problem, which I identify as Wings NOT being a stand alone mode seperate from Open and Solo. As currently implimented it is very bad games design and loosing us players.

I'm sorry if you "cannot understand" anothers point of view as there is no way to teach you empathy, or apparently, to help you see that this is a game, a product of an entertainment industry and not in anyway related to your kill crazy delusions about warfare.

Games that are not balanced fail.

Some people, sheesh.

 

[Mr.Crisp]

"Hello any real players out there?"

"yes hello to you!"

"SUBMIT TO MY LASORS!"

"Baaaalllsssss...!!!"

 

[Jason Pegasi]

Ok, 1st I'll just ignore your reductionist, lets call it reasoning, and not comment on your amazing mind reading abilities, and just point out why Wings was an ill concieved and badly implimented idea leading to a drop in players in Open.

Multiplayer games are designed to balance team numbers, sure you can have a giant hunting mode where many players face off against one player, but they are always seperate game modes. ED has 1 default multiplayer mode, this is now Wings mode, a niche subset of the demographic foisted on all, and thus Open is dying.

I am suggesting that this thread is symptomatic of the real problem, which I identify as Wings NOT being a stand alone mode seperate from Open and Solo. As currently implimented it is very bad games design and loosing us players.

I'm sorry if you "cannot understand" anothers point of view as there is no way to teach you empathy, or apparently, to help you see that this is a game, a product of an entertainment industry and not in anyway related to your kill crazy delusions about warfare.

Games that are not balanced fail.

Some people, sheesh.

Open world games cannot functionally have team balancing mechanics. If you want a perfectly balanced team match, go play games that are not open but rather have arena style matchmaking, like your average FPS or MMO with PVP Arenas. I wouldn't mind an arena gamemode too, but taking wings or open PVP out of this game is not going to be good for the longevity of the game when people get bored of NPCs and simple duels with other players. Not all games should have balanced team mechanics and it's not a universally true statement that games that lack them, suffer and lose players. Open world game players don't expect PVP to always be 100% fair, they expect it to be spontaneous and intense and risky.

I think your expectations for this game don't align with what most people tend to expect from open world games. Typical forum bubble attitude. Stop asking for things that would take this game backwards.

Also, I didn't say I lacked the ability to see your point of view, I was saying I cannot agree with it, nor the "make the game cater to me me me me" attitude of some people, and was actually encouraging something akin to empathy when I said live and let live. I won't even dignify kill crazy warfare delusions with a response except for that people die in war, and people survive by working together and cooperating and that does not make them cowards.

 

[Armour]

I agree with the OP - there should be no easy way to pick out the players - sorry, Pilot's Federation members - from the crowd, if they don't want to be identifed as such. It's not okay to "name and shame" players on these forums according to the rules, but it is okay for the game to do it, apparently - one rule for them and another for us?

 

[deathmagnet]

If the developers are trying to create an immersive experience of being a starship commander, why do we need the immersion breaking feature of representing NPC and Players differently in the game world? It serves no benefit what so ever to the majority of players but does serve to benefit one small subset of players, the PKers. Now if Elite was designed primarily as a PvP game with low death penalty costs, this would make sense, but it was not; it was designed as a multi-player game with allowed PvP.

This is one of the primary reasons why open play is just a big draw for PK focused players and why many of us why welcome the risk of PvP choose to instead just avoid open play. We accept that we could become the victim of a bit of random violence, but do not want to fly around space with huge targets on or backs. Please don't get me wrong, in no way do I want to restrict the chosen play styles for those who with to just watch the world burn. That is entirely their choice. I just don't want to stand out. Its no different then forcing any group of people in the real world to openly display their differences, thus making them easy targets for those wishing to do them harm.

The solution to this inequality could be resolved in three steps, two of which should have a low dev cost. Step one would be to replace the open icon representing players with the closed icons of NPCs. Step two would be to either remove CMDR form player pilot names or add it to NPC pilot names. After All we are all part of the same Pilots Federation. The final step would be to increase NPC traffic around stations. An additional step which would have a higher dev cost would be to add all local NPCs to the local comms screen.

It would still be possible for a player to tell the difference between an NPC and Player by bringing up the comm screen and looking at the interaction options as we can't currently open comms with NPC but it would now require a little effort to single out players from NPCs. This in itself would reduce the risk of random or targeted aggression that players face in Open Play enough, to bring many players currently playing in Private Groups or Solo, back to Open Play. I don't have a problem running a blockade to bring goods to market, but I do want even odds, just like every other in game entity.

Interesting thoughts...good arguements...not sure if i disagree or agree. +1 rep for that alone

 

[Yaffle]

This was discussed at considerable length in the DDF prior to game launch.

About 2/3 of the forum was in favour of not distinguishing players from NPCs, mostly citing the arguments you have also given. The rest wanted to see players.

The developers' solution was an optional transponder, switched off by default, but which could be switched on by choice. Only players who both had their transponders on would immediately see each other as players on the radar.

In the end the whole discussion was shelved when more pressing development issues arose. The system that was in place - NPCs and players being distinct - was kept, and I doubt very much that it will change.

As Hellhawk says this was the subject of much discussion.

See also - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=24987

and - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=16260

and - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12509

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

I wish everyone was in the same Open Play world. A world with all the warts and wonder too. A world where friends and enemies exist.
Not a world where players can play in safety and yet still actually talk to me in Open where I'm constantly having to be aware of what's going on around me.
Its like a hazy shadow world that closely mimics your own, where players can influence your world at near-zero risk. Just doesn't wash with me. Keep your work in Solo, and stop messing with my significant;y riskier acquisition of assets in Open.

Prefer everyone in Open, and live with your risk. As has been said before, you do get a few violent types, but on the whole, other CMDR's are pretty amiable. The balance would tip even more in favour of 'friendly encounters' if all Solo players were in Open.

Perhaps they're just too scared to come out of Solo. *shrugs*. E-lite, not Elite.

(flip side of the coin is that Solo is most like the original Elite experience, but drop the forced online component and allow the Solo players world to diverge from the Open players efforts.)

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

As Hellhawk says this was the subject of much discussion.

See also - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=24987

and - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=16260

and - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12509

The existence of previous threads doesn't necessarily make the discussion go away. Its plain to see its an important topic because it keeps popping up. And many folks are passionate about it - even if their logic is fauty

Other threads have been derailed in the past, or ended up as Open vs Solo slugging matches without any relevant opinion or useable solutions being tabled.
In the end, many Open-only players will move on, and the MMO aspect will dwindle. In my opinion, FD bowed too much to vocal minority pressure in this regard. (I'm having fun now, but in 3months? A year?)

Many of the vital, interesting, emergent gameplay that is already visible in other games historically, and in development, are completely absent from ED - escorts for freighters, missions for smal-2 prson wings, 4-person wings etc, scaling missions based on ship asset value/tonnage/points value/firepower etc.

I get that ED is still in development, but... yeah, the Open vs Solo debate is important to keep alive.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I wish everyone was in the same Open Play world. A world with all the warts and wonder too. A world where friends and enemies exist.
Not a world where players can play in safety and yet still actually talk to me in Open where I'm constantly having to be aware of what's going on around me.
Its like a hazy shadow world that closely mimics your own, where players can influence your world at near-zero risk. Just doesn't wash with me. Keep your work in Solo, and stop messing with my significant;y riskier acquisition of assets in Open.

Prefer everyone in Open, and live with your risk. As has been said before, you do get a few violent types, but on the whole, other CMDR's are pretty amiable. The balance would tip even more in favour of 'friendly encounters' if all Solo players were in Open.

Perhaps they're just too scared to come out of Solo. *shrugs*. E-lite, not Elite.

(flip side of the coin is that Solo is most like the original Elite experience, but drop the forced online component and allow the Solo players world to diverge from the Open players efforts.)

I like the 3 modes and thankfully people do not get to force me how to play the game. DB demoed the game on a train tethered to his phone. Try that in open!. FWIW I do not want any modes to go but if one had to I would say shelve open after all no idiots in private if I am able to boot them. That is selfish however so am not suggesting it.

An optional transponder I am fine with just bear in mind some will try to id you looking at bandwidth use

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

I can't think of any good argument against the optional ability for players to see solid scanner blips for both NPCs and players. If everyone not using that option could still see them, they could still be communicated with easily, no different from the way it is now. For some people, this would only improve the game; imagine going into a conflict zone where a solid blip *could* be player (it would often be obvious, but not as easily identified as the rather debug-mode-like instant hollow blip). Denying them the ability to play this way based on... fear and selfishness I guess, seems unfortunate and unfair to me. Some people (like me), generally don't initiate comms with other players (though I usually respond).

That would be the worst of all worlds. If you always have the 'flashing blue light' on that tells the griefers that you are a target, you would continue to be preferentially attacked. Having that downside without the knowledge that there is a potential jerk out there would make you permanently paranoid.

I really don't like the difference that we have today: when I see a PC, even though I do not want to, I react differently to when I see an NPC. It shouldn't be like that, but it is: you cannot forget things like that. I would much rather not know.

I know that different people want to play the game in different ways. I understand that for some they do not want to 'role play' and that is fine. I'm not arguing that everyone should play the game the way that I want to. I just want to be able to play my way without being constantly interrupted by someone who wants to preferrentially target me for the lols.

And, no, solo is not the answer, though many PvPers seem to think it is. They want to either deprive us of the benefits of playing with other players or force their playstyle on players who do not want it.

The benefit of the transponder idea is that those two playstyles can play together without getting in each other's way. If your transponder is off, then every ship appears to you as an NPC, and you appear to every other ship as an NPC. If it is on, then you see other players who have also turned their transponder on as PCs. Those that want to play with that identification immediately available to all can do so. Those that do not, do not have to. Given that for many the only alternative today is to hide in solo or Mobius, keeping those players in open where they can interact if they choose to, and are not preferentially targetted seem to be an obvious win/win.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

I get that ED is still in development, but... yeah, the Open vs Solo debate is important to keep alive.

Agreed. So go talk about it in Open vs Solo threads, and stop trying to drag this one off topic.

 

[Joe Spivey]

That would be the worst of all worlds. If you always have the 'flashing blue light' on that tells the griefers that you are a target, you would continue to be preferentially attacked. Having that downside without the knowledge that there is a potential jerk out there would make you permanently paranoid.

I really don't like the difference that we have today: when I see a PC, even though I do not want to, I react differently to when I see an NPC. It shouldn't be like that, but it is: you cannot forget things like that. I would much rather not know.

I know that different people want to play the game in different ways. I understand that for some they do not want to 'role play' and that is fine. I'm not arguing that everyone should play the game the way that I want to. I just want to be able to play my way without being constantly interrupted by someone who wants to preferrentially target me for the lols.

And, no, solo is not the answer, though many PvPers seem to think it is. They want to either deprive us of the benefits of playing with other players or force their playstyle on players who do not want it.

The benefit of the transponder idea is that those two playstyles can play together without getting in each other's way. If your transponder is off, then every ship appears to you as an NPC, and you appear to every other ship as an NPC. If it is on, then you see other players who have also turned their transponder on as PCs. Those that want to play with that identification immediately available to all can do so. Those that do not, do not have to. Given that for many the only alternative today is to hide in solo or Mobius, keeping those players in open where they can interact if they choose to, and are not preferentially targetted seem to be an obvious win/win.

+1 to this. I really can't see any valid argument against voluntary transponders. I think it is time FD took another look at this.

 

[JeffRyan]

"Hello any real players out there?"

"yes hello to you!"

"SUBMIT TO MY LASORS!"

"Baaaalllsssss...!!!"

It's funny, despite this attitude and I'm sure it happen, this has NEVER happened to me in Open. And I've played since Alpha.

- - - Updated - - -

+1 to this. I really can't see any valid argument against voluntary transponders. I think it is time FD took another look at this.

I can. Transponders will initially be used perhaps by everyone. As fear of PvP continues to grow, some people will opt out. Then more. Then the people looking for PvP will opt out. And it'll be as though the mechanism didn't exist in the first place with everyone with the transponder off. Effectively we'll be playing a solo game with a crowd.

Transponders won't simplify the issue. It'll complicate it.

Ironically the other side of the coins is the 'separate commander for Open and Solo' argument. Which is often and even more passionately argued by the pro-PvP crowd.

I think that neither side is happy right now is probably a good sign that a decent compromise HAS already been reached.