Doesn't sound like it to me...
Instancing Like This Isn't Working
- Thread starter Dweezle
- Start date
Yeah, everything is getting laggy as hell when there's 20 players or so in single instance, so let's add moreWelcome to P2P instancing, where your computer would be in big trouble if there was no player number limitation.
Nope. Remeber WoW, the well populated areas? Hundreds of people jumping around. And remeber how old that game is and how powerful the modern hardware is compared the old one used 10 years ago.
A whole system with 10 stations and a massive CG going on (15-20k people overall, 5k at the same time) would work perfectly.
And your computer will not explode, there is a thing called view distance. Player models load when you get in range. Make that range 25km for normal space, 1000ls for supercruise.
This would allow some epic, massive fights (how it should be, just imagine multiple Farragut class ships on each side, followed by thousands of ships, from the smallest fighter to the biggest playable ship, NPC and player together). And dont worry, my rig is capable of doing this, i7 5820K OC and GTX 970, if needed i can throw some more beast-grade hardware into it. And i expect an MMO to be massive, even in space where you feel alone - sure, go feel alone while exploring, 100 jumps away from the closest intelligent lifeform. But the core should be massive and right now its missing. I feel like i play a singleplayer game with some additional co-op missions and a few massive events that are rare and far away from what people call massive.
Yeah but meaningful interaction in terms of combat is limited. Still is. 25 I think for a raid.
I wish people wouldn't equate 'seeing' with meaningful interaction in terms of combat and adventuring.
25 right now. 40 in the old raids. 100+ in a city raid. Yeah that was laggy as hell, but right now we have way better hardware and a NEW game with a NEW engine that can be optimized for this. Sure the server cluster that can hold a system with a CG with 10k+ people flying around and massive fights with thousand people and more on each side will be huge, but THIS is what people want. This is why the Star Citizen hype is so big. And FD has a chance to deliver it here and now. The game is here and ready, some changes, a couple of patches and upgrades to the infrastructure would make it real (under heavy investment, and as i far i can see, Frontier is searching for new employes, so they may run into a different problem - the manhours needed to run a server cluster for each region are pretty high).
And in WoW you could interact with anyone in your range. 500 people in the city with maximum view distance - thats nothing special. Yeah this dumped the FPS down to ~30, but remeber WoW was using only 2 threads, one main thread. A heavily multithreaded engine can do wonders with modern i7 & FX CPUs...
Yup, gives a seamless experience of being in a populated vibrate and interactive place. You say meanigfull interaction? Come on, there are world "events" amoung many other meaningful player interaction that are missing in ed.
Sure. But the background is far less demanding so the clients should be fine with the gpu load. It will increase the CPU load (people with modern quadcores and higher should be fine) and the network load on the client side will be less than p2p now. The server cluster will take the full load, but for what do we have the latest Xeon CPUs, SSD in raids and high bandwith RAM. Yeah thats expensive, but at least the client side will still be happy with a slim client that can run really good on a decent connection and a decent cpu, the GPU load will not jump up.
Sitting close to my monster rig with 12 threads, 4,6GHz, decent DDR4 and gtx 970 (multiple possible or i will switch to something faster, possible under H2O) i`m willig to take on the challenge of higher impact on my hardware. And my network can handle it too, if not - gigabit fibre possible. Just give us the expirience please, we will find a way to enjoy it. Flying in an empty MMO is the worst feeling. Even a stupid escort mission feels better.
It could be more, but most games are not designed to be open world and have huge battles with countless ships etc.
Its hard, but its possible. And we need some serios power on the other side, the client will stay the same, just the CPU load will increase. RTS games can handle way more units than current flight games and the numbers are pretty good. SC2 is strange, the scaling with RAM is really great and this is really rare for a game. But its possible, just nobody has done it so far.
Like this:
[video=youtube;NHWjlCaIrQo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo[/video]
It isn't the CPU or the RAM that's the problem. It is, but you're right, these issues can be overcome. It's the networking. The data to keep 1000s of people meaningfully tracked is pretty much impossible and FD have been struggling with getting us 32 players since Alpha precisely because it isn't as easy as people seem to think.
Well the p2p doesnt help with it. The only way to solve the networking problem is to have regional server cluster. And this is just expensive, because not everyone is in Europe and can play on the regular FD server.
P.S.: what has FTTH (fibre to the home) to do with this? A good connection can be anything from cable to VDSL and fibre and most people already have it. FD doesnt pay for your connection, they just have to pay for the server.
P.S.: what has FTTH (fibre to the home) to do with this? A good connection can be anything from cable to VDSL and fibre and most people already have it. FD doesnt pay for your connection, they just have to pay for the server.
Just wanted to give my 2 cents on the matter. I believe that p2p and the amount of client side "checks" are what will be the downfall of this game in the minds of many competative gamers and in some already is. The solution in my eyes and many others is that most everything needs to be moved server side like was done in many of the more traditional "locked down" true sandboxes of the past. With 500,000+ sales, a huge release about to drop, and an impending console release ELITE is probably doing rather well. Hopefully this means that a more robust and server side environment on open play will be financially feasible.
It is classified as a MMO because that's what Frontier self-proclaims. However, does it fully fulfill the requirements of a MMO? Does it give the feeling of it? Not really. I think that's what people are getting at.
I don't think people are really trying to challenge Frontier with their definition of it or trying to re-classify it, but venting their frustration with ED's failure as a MMO.
Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
Actually, that would be:
It is classified as an MMO because that's what Frontier self-proclaims, and others agree with them hence the MMO classification, not proclamation.
I have to agree with you up to a point at least.
Just to name an example: War Thunder is handling 32 player instances pretty well in air combat from what I´ve experienced (great game by the way, just has some obnoxious grind in it that can burn you out). I`m quite sure their game could handle more players per map, but their game mechanics are not planned for that many people yet. It remains to be seen what they are going to do with their World War mode which is supposedly going to feature more players on each instance.
By the way, the term MMO has been greatly mis-used in past years. I´m not quite sure what it is supposed to mean anymore when even simple lobby shooters are now MMOs.
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dayrth
Volunteer Moderator
I don't think it's the instancing that's broken. Seems to work well for most people. Works OK for me. That would suggest that you may have an issue at your end. Either settings, PC or networking. Or perhaps your friend does.
Well ED has so far pretty much anything that an MMO needs.
A good solid universe that is changing after player interaction (could be more and will be more, just wait for 1.3). Community goals. The grind (and the grind is real) - its a part of any MMO game, more or less, but its always present to keep people ingame for a long time. Multiplayer action, PvP and PvE - possible. Factions and reputation & ranks? Covered.
Its a sandbox, its not designed to have a story, an endboss that is changing every 6 months to keep people playing, there are no global threats like a hostile faction, people decide who will be hostile.
The only problem is - it doesnt feel MASSIVE. Its just a multiplayer game. Same like battlefield - you join a server, meet new & old people, change the server > repeat. It doesnt feel like all of us are playing the same game at the same time, in one open world (and it claims to be open world). Thats great for people who enjoy the old Elite style and want to play the game solo or with a couple of friends, but this is really bad for anyone who wants massive fights, huge events and so on.
CG - 5k people do it and if you play open and stay in the system, you will be happy if you find 50 of them... Not massive at all...
A good solid universe that is changing after player interaction (could be more and will be more, just wait for 1.3). Community goals. The grind (and the grind is real) - its a part of any MMO game, more or less, but its always present to keep people ingame for a long time. Multiplayer action, PvP and PvE - possible. Factions and reputation & ranks? Covered.
Its a sandbox, its not designed to have a story, an endboss that is changing every 6 months to keep people playing, there are no global threats like a hostile faction, people decide who will be hostile.
The only problem is - it doesnt feel MASSIVE. Its just a multiplayer game. Same like battlefield - you join a server, meet new & old people, change the server > repeat. It doesnt feel like all of us are playing the same game at the same time, in one open world (and it claims to be open world). Thats great for people who enjoy the old Elite style and want to play the game solo or with a couple of friends, but this is really bad for anyone who wants massive fights, huge events and so on.
CG - 5k people do it and if you play open and stay in the system, you will be happy if you find 50 of them... Not massive at all...