Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[Jordan Cobalt]

If we look at the ship rather than the player, the Hauler, Type 6, etc. are the in-game baby seals (i.e. trade optimised ships) - unable to defend themselves against the attentions of the Viper, Vulture, etc. (i.e. combat optimised ships).

Of course players could change ships (if they can afford it) and install modules to aid escape (if they can afford it) - but that is those players changing the way that they play.

Not defend themselves, but escape from one. Also a little awareness and quick thinking, you could never be interdicted in the first place.

As for the second thing, it sounds like you agree with me. Traders can upgrade their ship, fly a ship capable of combat, and equip some defensive modules, if the are willing to sacrifice some income.

Of course they can take action. They can combat log. Allow people the freedom to do that and things are balanced.

As it is now there is NO WAY an FDL configured for combat can lose to a Type-9 configured for trade, even if that Type-9 is carrying a shield generator and all around shield boosters. The game is designed to be this way. And that is indeed the reason it isn't a PvP game.

It contains the possibility of PvP encounters but that's a small little side-aspect to the larger game.

Ah yes, allowing players to cheat is the only way things can be balanced, say no more.

As for the FDL vs type 9, the fdl no longer mass locks the type 9. It's not as vulnerable as you think. decent shields and and some boosters can give it the time needed to escape.

 

[fademist]

As for the second thing, it sounds like you agree with me. Traders can upgrade their ship, fly a ship capable of combat, and equip some defensive modules, if the are willing to sacrifice some income.

and to sacrifice income for what? to try to defend themselfs from combat ships...hm....

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

and to sacrifice income for what? to try to defend themselfs from combat ships...hm....

Yes, i thought that was implied.

 

[Daffan]

There was no need for Open advocates to label all mode switchers as cowards / cheaters / exploiters - but they do, and have done for a long time.
Check out the old mega thread for the comprehensive list of what Open Advocates think of Solo/Group and Mode Switchers.
Also some very indirect ways of saying the above have been used in both the old mega and this mega.

While true their are hostilities for both sides, some of what they say is true to an extent. As long as their is room for cheesing someone is going to do it.

I think mode switching is exploitable for both sides - tbh

As a pvp player as soon as a gang of 4 come to try and kill me i can just leave any time into solo, it really is a joke - or vice versa

 

[fademist]

While true their are hostilities for both sides, some of what they say is true to an extent. As long as their is room for cheesing someone is going to do it.

I think mode switching is exploitable for both sides - tbh

so now mode switching is an exploit ....

 

[Asp Explorer]

As a pvp player as soon as a gang of 4 come to try and kill me i can just leave any time into solo, it really is a joke - or vice versa

So instead of trying to beat a gang of four, and show off some mighty PvP-sklliz - some people combat log and hide in solo? Why should a gang of four need to bother with one single (presumably smaller )ship if it doesn't attack them first? Engaging it with overwhelmingly superior firepower would simply be seal-clubbing. There is no PvP here.

 

[Jockey79]

While true their are hostilities for both sides, some of what they say is true to an extent. As long as their is room for cheesing someone is going to do it.

I think mode switching is exploitable for both sides - tbh

As a pvp player as soon as a gang of 4 come to try and kill me i can just leave any time into solo, it really is a joke - or vice versa

When it comes to forum hostilities, I'm yet to play a game that does not have the normal demographic arguments.

PvP / PvE
Casuals / Hardcore
Roleplayers / Everyone Else

And then the subset mixes of those.
But wouldn't life be dull if we were all the same

As for people jumping modes - for whatever reason, it was always the intent for that. It is one of the main premises of the core design, advertised since KickStarter. And Elite: Dangerous is not the only game doing this. Flexi-Player seems to be the way forward for what seems to be Casual PvE types. For real PvP, there is dedicated arena games like World of Tanks, Robocraft (I love this game) and such like games. And for the Hardcore Roleplayers - World of Warcraft

I can see how it is frustrating to want to try Hardcore PvP, but the game just was not designed for random encounters like that. What with the Peer to Peer networking, instancing with a max of 32 (if you're lucky, soft cap of 12 found out by Roybe) and then the modes, unless it is a pre-arranged battle (and even then, it may not work) you are out of luck.

 

[fademist]

So instead of trying to beat a gang of four, and show off some mighty PvP-sklliz - some people combat log and hide in solo? Why should a gang of four need to bother with one single (presumably smaller )ship if it doesn't attack them first? Engaging it with overwhelmingly superior firepower would simply be seal-clubbing. There is no PvP here.

and is the favorite pvp tactick 2+vs1 in all games;p

- - - Updated - - -

When it comes to forum hostilities, I'm yet to play a game that does not have the normal demographic arguments.

PvP / PvE
Casuals / Hardcore
Roleplayers / Everyone Else

And then the subset mixes of those.
But wouldn't life be dull if we were all the same

As for people jumping modes - for whatever reason, it was always the intent for that. It is one of the main premises of the core design, advertised since KickStarter. And Elite: Dangerous is not the only game doing this. Flexi-Player seems to be the way forward for what seems to be Casual PvE types. For real PvP, there is dedicated arena games like World of Tanks, Robocraft (I love this game) and such like games. And for the Hardcore Roleplayers - World of Warcraft

I can see how it is frustrating to want to try Hardcore PvP, but the game just was not designed for random encounters like that. What with the Peer to Peer networking, instancing with a max of 32 (if you're lucky, soft cap of 12 found out by Roybe) and then the modes, unless it is a pre-arranged battle (and even then, it may not work) you are out of luck.

my rep button is always broken for you...grrrr

 

[ianw]

I meant no insult to traders, but when you have PvP people openly boasting about popping ships in one salvo, and then saying "it's not quick enough"* I do wonder how your average trader is supposed to protect himself from combat-oriented ships with massive firepower.

Of course, the trader can learn to chaff/heatsink spam - go silent, dump some junk and hyperspace out - but how many fat traders who do nothing but use external trading tools are actually going to know basic game mechanics? Those tactics also annoy real pirates - as they don't want junk. It's annoys the pew-pew-crew as they want kills. That leaves traders with either combat logging (despised by everyone) or playing in Solo or Group. Those traders who DO play in Open, and are completely at your mercy - have you ever considered winging up with them instead? You get the bounty from attacking pirates, and a small chunk of their trading profit, and a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside that comes from knowing you are not a mindless pew-pew, but a real player.

Catching up from yesterday - I do trade in open and now that I have a fairly well kitted Anaconda (about 300 mill) I've been untouchable in real terms. Even a wing of 4 can be easily escaped, I can't defeat a wing of 4 - but they can't defeat me or force me to do anything - so I can continue running a pirate infested route with no problem other than the minor inconvenience of stopping to chat now and again whilst they decide what to do. It's fun now for me because I know that if they all turn hostile I can get away back into supercruise with my shields intact.

Of course now the shield mechanics have changed I will have to do a series of drops to avoid serial interdictions. And maybe equip some SCBs.

But that isn't viable for the majority of traders - if I were in a smaller ship I would still be doing what I did previously - avoiding interdictions by dropping out before they start. Which was my point originally - the basic pirate v trader PVP thing is just too unbalanced for most encounters - until the trader can afford a reasonably kitted Anaconda. And even then there is no point in me trying to actually slug it out with a wing as I'm too slow - it's only matter of time before the shields go then the thrusters or the power plant.

You are so misguided its not even funny, do you only ever see the bad ?

Here is an example of how the game would be amazing for PVP players.

Power 1 (Federation) sends out 3 players into an exploit system to kill NPC's. Power 2 (Empire) sends 3 players to defend those NPC's. Both groups of 3 players are flying PVP Ships - there is NO traders or seal clubbing involved in this scenario.

It's a pure power vs power combat scenario, real players, real risk and challenge - with good rewards. MEANINGFUL PVP. No seal clubbing.

At the combat zone, a player 3v3 breaks out. People DIE, insurance matters and the victors get a merit reward RELATIVE to the enemies killed (to stop abuse and killing friends over and over)

What happens right now in Elite?

click Solo > grind NPC's/Trades until 5000 merits > LOLOLOL

Why? Because solo is so much safer and lucrative. Even Open-players have to use solo to be able to compete in community goals and power play fairly.

Yes but in this game there is massive pvp imbalance in weapons and ships

but also in gameplay mechanics. Like submitting, high fsd and other stuff - just basic problems that are still here.

I don't know if the game mechanics would support it but instead of a separate arena it would be good if they could do something in CGs or Powerplay.

The faction calls out for combat capable commanders to rally at a faction marshalling area - when you get there there are cap ships and all sorts milling around in preparation for battle. Then you get assigned to a wing (or you come with your mates in pre-formed wing) and you get tasked to assist a convoy or whatever that has been bounced near a RES site.

You get a beacon to lock onto and the same happens for the opposing faction's wing so it becomes an in game "arena" for the purposes of that session only - no-one else can stumble onto it and you fight it out amongst the rocks.

It's entirely consensual and everyone is in a combat appropriate ship.

 

[Faded Glory]

Here is an example of how the game would be amazing for PVP players.

Power 1 (Federation) sends out 3 players into an exploit system to kill NPC's. Power 2 (Empire) sends 3 players to defend those NPC's. Both groups of 3 players are flying PVP Ships - there is NO traders or seal clubbing involved in this scenario.

It's a pure power vs power combat scenario, real players, real risk and challenge - with good rewards. MEANINGFUL PVP. No seal clubbing.

At the combat zone, a player 3v3 breaks out. People DIE, insurance matters and the victors get a merit reward RELATIVE to the enemies killed (to stop abuse and killing friends over and over)

This is a good and constructive suggestion. It involves role-play, consensual PvP, and you should petition FD to implement such missions. Nobody would be against such a thing as far as I can see.

To be honest, you could still set this kind of thing up privately in the meantime, and that would give you the chance to have your meaningful PvP right now. Form a group of six, go to a CZ, and play out your scenario. Ok, you wouldn't be getting PP rewards, but you would still be getting bounties from the NPCs, and could use them to determine who wins.

What happens right now in Elite?

click Solo > grind NPC's/Trades until 5000 merits > LOLOLOL

Why? Because solo is so much safer and lucrative. Even Open-players have to use solo to be able to compete in community goals and power play fairly.

It's a tiny bit sad that you follow this up with what seems to be a snide insult to people who choose not to play the game your way. If that's not the case, then apologies, but it could very well be taken that way.

Yes but in this game there is massive pvp imbalance in weapons and ships

but also in gameplay mechanics. Like submitting, high fsd and other stuff - just basic problems that are still here.

So the fact that these massive imbalances exist in the game, and are, or seem to be not accidental, but part of the design should be an indication that a PvP oriented game is just not what FD are trying to make. I suppose you can try to change the direction of the game, but I imagine it's a bit of a waste of time and energy.

 

[SteveLaw]

Yes but in this game there is massive pvp imbalance in weapons and ships

This shirt makes a terrible pair of trousers.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

So instead of trying to beat a gang of four, and show off some mighty PvP-sklliz - some people combat log and hide in solo? Why should a gang of four need to bother with one single (presumably smaller )ship if it doesn't attack them first? Engaging it with overwhelmingly superior firepower would simply be seal-clubbing. There is no PvP here.

Hmm let's see, perhaps the single player has a huge bounty and is a pirate, or a trader loaded to the gills with cargo, or even a member an opposing faction either PP or a player made faction. In those cases will it still be baby seal clubbing?

 

[fademist]

Hmm let's see, perhaps the single player has a huge bounty and is a pirate, or a trader loaded to the gills with cargo, or even a member an opposing faction either PP or a player made faction. In those cases will it still be baby seal clubbing?

or is a peacefull pilot fly around ....

 

[FuzzySpider]

Ah yes, allowing players to cheat is the only way things can be balanced, say no more.

Well that's your opinion. I fail to see how, for example, a FDL vs a Type 6 is a "fair" match up, in fact I fail to see any move at all the Type 6 has to deal with the FDL. In terms of pure PvP mechanics this is a cheat. You like one sort of cheat, because it allows you an easy victory. The other sort of cheat is despicable because it denies you victory.

NOTE: Bear in mind I am talking as if the game were specifically a PvP based game. It isn't, it's a PvE based game and thus the mechanics are fine, and combat logging is indeed wrong. The point of this argument is to skewer the premise that PvP is in any way a core part of the game, it's merely a consequence of other activities. Please don't take the argument out of context.

As for the FDL vs type 9, the fdl no longer mass locks the type 9. It's not as vulnerable as you think. decent shields and and some boosters can give it the time needed to escape.

If you can't take down a Type 9 in a FDL then frankly you're better off in Solo yourself. And you've picked out one example where a ship could escape, picking the example I made without addressing the actual point at all.

There is no action a Type 7 or 6 can take against an interdicting Anaconda. An FDL or a wing of Vultures will shred any hauler in seconds. Most of the time a trader interdicted by a specialized combat ship has very little recourse other than to submit. To pretend otherwise is to ruin your credibility.

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

FuzzySpider, I liked your posts on the Power Play Discussion matter but here, is baffling. You really want players of all ships and kind to abuse a very VERY cheap and bannable thing? Come on dude what in the hell. Regardless if this was a specifically PVP based game, that is still defeating the damn purpose of the game!

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Well that's your opinion. I fail to see how, for example, a FDL vs a Type 6 is a "fair" match up, in fact I fail to see any move at all the Type 6 has to deal with the FDL. In terms of pure PvP mechanics this is a cheat. You like one sort of cheat, because it allows you an easy victory. The other sort of cheat is despicable because it denies you victory.

NOTE: Bear in mind I am talking as if the game were specifically a PvP based game. It isn't, it's a PvE based game and thus the mechanics are fine, and combat logging is indeed wrong. The point of this argument is to skewer the premise that PvP is in any way a core part of the game, it's merely a consequence of other activities. Please don't take the argument out of context.

The game allows pvp, and in some cases encourages it, the same can be said about pve btw. The game is as much a pvp game as it is a pve game

If you can't take down a Type 9 in a FDL then frankly you're better off in Solo yourself. And you've picked out one example where a ship could escape, picking the example I made without addressing the actual point at all.

There is no action a Type 7 or 6 can take against an interdicting Anaconda. An FDL or a wing of Vultures will shred any hauler in seconds. Most of the time a trader interdicted by a specialized combat ship has very little recourse other than to submit. To pretend otherwise is to ruin your credibility.

I cherry picked one example to suit my argument, you picked another extreme. To use your example, yes a type 6 does have a chance against an anaconda. The type 6 is a surprisingly quick ship. All it takes is a decent placement after interdiction and 3 boosts later, you're out of his gun range.

You're also not taking into account that it's that way for everyone. If I'm out pirating in an asp, i'm DOA if i get stopped by an fdl too. You know what stops that? Some basic awareness of my surroundings. If you see a player, check their ship and loadout, if it gives you pause, drop out of sc and go to another system. Traders are only victims if they allow themselves to be. With no mass lock hyper-jumps, a decent ship and shields, some awareness, and defensive modules and utilities, traders are practically untouchable. I say that as a pirate, i know what good traders are capable of.

- - - Updated - - -

Since you feel those are factors, does that mean when the single player isn't any of those mode switching is a viable option?

I never said it wasn't. Asp implied that there was no "legit" pvp to be had from a 1v2(+) fight, I disagree.

 

[fademist]

The game allows pvp, and in some cases encourages it, the same can be said about pve btw. The game is as much a pvp game as it is a pve game

we can safely say is more pve than pvp and we all know it

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

we can safely say is more pve than pvp and we all know it

I fight players more often than i fight npcs.......

 

[fademist]

I fight players more often than i fight npcs.......

thats you .

 

[FuzzySpider]

The game allows pvp, and in some cases encourages it, the same can be said about pve btw. The game is as much a pvp game as it is a pve game

No, it isn't as much a PvP game as a PvE game. Until you realize and acknowledge this you're not going to find any traction on this argument.

I cherry picked one example to suit my argument, you picked another extreme.

My examples were not "extreme". Type-anything vs FDL, Anaconda, Python, etc is no contest.

To use your example, yes a type 6 does have a chance against an anaconda.

The type 6 is a surprisingly quick ship. All it takes is a decent placement after interdiction and 3 boosts later, you're out of his gun range.

3 boosts? I'm going to be charitable here and assume that the universe is simply oozing with Type 6s which have A-class power distributors and engines, but do you know how much damage a combat rated Anaconda can do in the time it takes to boost 3 times?

You're also not taking into account that it's that way for everyone. If I'm out pirating in an asp, i'm DOA if i get stopped by an fdl too. You know what stops that? Some basic awareness of my surroundings. If you see a player, check their ship and loadout, if it gives you pause, drop out of sc and go to another system. Traders are only victims if they allow themselves to be. With no mass lock hyper-jumps, a decent ship and shields, some awareness, and defensive modules and utilities, traders are practically untouchable. I say that as a pirate, i know what good traders are capable of.

If you're out pirating in an Asp it's going to be rigged for combat, not trade. And if, as you say, you're DOA running into an FDL in a combat specced Asp then I don't know why you think a trade specced Type 9 has a chance. This looks to me like a classic case of rationalization.