Frontier literally have no idea how to balance roles (not hyperbole, evidence inside)

I really want to love this game, and did briefly when i could make good money smuggling on the 1.3 release. Doing something i really liked doing and being rewarded for it was some of the most fun i have had in this game, But then it was nerfed, twice. Why? with smuggling you could only smuggle one way, had to dock undetected, and avoid the many pirates in Archon territory. 4kpt was perfect imo.

Im sick of being pushed into trading, it makes way more than anything else. I don't want all the roles to be completely equal, but it needs to be a bit closer.
The missions are still a joke, make 1 Billion credits to achieve Elite rank so you can take 240k credit missions? nice.
 
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Nice example we have here.


Lets take another player who would like to buy combat rigged Anaconda, and also reach the Elite rank in trading. He needs 1 billion credits, yes the game is GRINDY.


If we take your 43k + 78k = 121k / h
1 billion / 121k = ~8265 hours


Lets say that you play every day 3 hours? For some of us that is a lot.
8265 / 3 = 2755 days.


Lets say that you play 275 days per year, because you have all the rest of your life to live as well.
2755 / 275 = ~10 years.


We both probably agree that the other guy simply has to trade. We both probably agree that, it is not cool.

...

To that mining idea...
Increasing commodity prices is one option, and might be even mandatory at some point. They do not have to increase trade profits, they can still control min and max prices for goods. Well, PP benefits might break this now.

The imporant thing is that by increasing all commodity prices, you improve mining and also piracy income.


Maybe it would be easier to nerf PP benefits in this case?

I spent an hour last night hunting down a particular deserter. I made 43K from the bounty, and 78K from the mission. I enjoyed myself. I didnt think "Oh my God, the traders are making more money than me", I just did what I wanted to do. I dont give a rats rear end what other commanders are doing. As for balance, why? why should everything be balanced? I am happy exploring knowing it wont make me a packet, I dont expect the same returns as hauling 500T of imperial slaves.
Also your sarcasm doesnt really work on this forum as people may take you literally.

See that is the problem; so many people add the "Grind" themselves
Whiterose expressed his enjoyment i an activity and someone immediately crunches numbers to Cr/hr as if that is a way of quantifying the fun.

Especially when you take it to the extreme of 1 billion credits, as if that is the only acceptable objective.

If all activities are open to everyone, and can provide enjoyment and fun, what is the problem.
If the answer is "but you have to do the same thing x many times to earn a billion credit" then call it Grindy, you are going to find that answer will apply to any or every activity.

It is a mindset that dictates player MUST only repeat one activity over and over and over again, then accusing the game of being Grindy.

I don't find the game grindy as I don't even consider what the CR/Hr of what ever I am going in game is, I just do what appeals at the time, even if it is running food cartridges to systems with a famine because for me being part of the galaxy is fun, not min-maxing Cr/Hr
 
Vasious,
Believe me, I agree with you, but there is one fact that does have a bearing in this case.
Combat, Exploration, and Trading have PF ranks attached. It's only natural for some people to take figures like that and try and work out exactly how long it'll take them to get to the top rank based on those figures.
I think RAOK is wrong, and I've already said so, but in this case I believe it's more "You have to do activity A for X number of hours to receive this rank" rather than just picking a figure out of thin air.
If you are using figures based on one instance of someone saying "Look at all the fun I had, and I only made ?Cr doing so" then your figures will be wildly out and you are doing nobody any good, but you just can't help some people.
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All activities ARE open to all. Nothing in the game is stopping anyone who complains about how much money traders CAN make from buying a cargo ship and getting some of that action themselves. In fact it could be said that there are people who have little to no talent in combat and are forcibly being kept from being pirates or bounty hunters. Who needs fast reflexes when a T7 turns like a garbage scow? Trading is truly a universal career, open to all from the very begining, but people continue to whine about other people's Cr balance.
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I said that I enjoy exploration, but have a T7 for earning money trading to pay for upgrades and working towards my Elite status on trading. I am then accused of admitting that I have been forced to grind to get what I want. When I in no way said anything of the sort.
 
I said that I enjoy exploration, but have a T7 for earning money trading to pay for upgrades and working towards my Elite status on trading. I am then accused of admitting that I have been forced to grind to get what I want. When I in no way said anything of the sort.

I think a lot if is because you enjoy what you are doing, and some people are jelous of that fact, as all they do is grind. A usual evening for me involves, some trading, some powerplay, some combat missions and some other missions. I always keep it varied. Whereas some know that in a weeks time they will be trading from A to B to A ad infinitum.
 
None of the main activities mean anything unless they're affecting the universe. People interested in trade would trade if it meant having to actually find good routes and other tricks once in a while. Does anyone really need the stuff these people ship around? Nope. Systems can't run out of fuel or ammo, so what does it matter? Same with mining, systems don't really need ores to produce trade goods, so what does it matter?
 
See that is the problem; so many people add the "Grind" themselves
Whiterose expressed his enjoyment i an activity and someone immediately crunches numbers to Cr/hr as if that is a way of quantifying the fun.

Especially when you take it to the extreme of 1 billion credits, as if that is the only acceptable objective.

If all activities are open to everyone, and can provide enjoyment and fun, what is the problem.
If the answer is "but you have to do the same thing x many times to earn a billion credit" then call it Grindy, you are going to find that answer will apply to any or every activity.

It is a mindset that dictates player MUST only repeat one activity over and over and over again, then accusing the game of being Grindy.

I don't find the game grindy as I don't even consider what the CR/Hr of what ever I am going in game is, I just do what appeals at the time, even if it is running food cartridges to systems with a famine because for me being part of the galaxy is fun, not min-maxing Cr/Hr

This sentiment is repeated a lot around here, and I'm afraid it is an oversimplification and a touch naive. Gameplay mechanics and gameplay styles are not unrelated. The reward mechanisms in the game encourage grind. It is as simple as that. It is true to say ultimately it is the player's choice whether they participate in those mechanisms, but it is not true to say the player is entirely to blame, or that the player is merely inventing the grind themselves. It's like someone complaining that DA: O is just quest after quest after quest and someone retorting that you don't have to complete the quests. Well, no. I don't even have to switch my PC on, but this seems a rather absurd argument. Ultimately, this becomes an argument about the point of playing any game. For most players, they are encouraged by having problems to solve, missions to complete, objectives to satisfy and rewards to receive - new gear, new level, more cash. If those reward mechanisms scale with the repetition of more or less identical discrete (and fairly small) tasks, over and over again, then it is fair to say the game is grindy. I'm sure there are a few people content to just enjoy "experiencing" the game, unconcerned with progress (cash or rank) - although I think I'd argue you've seen all there is to see in ED game-play wise in fairly short order, so I'd love to know what these people are doing. Other people want objectives. They need to be motivated. Maybe you think this is lazy. I just think it is a shift in emphasis. Games have progressed massively as entertainment media in the last decade. People arguing that ED gives you plenty to do are arguing for a retrograde step in this respect. In my opinion, of course.
 
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Are you really saying you think anyone but the most die-hard role-player would trade if they didn't 'have' to? Everything I've seen on this forum would seem to indicate that most traders are only doing it because it earns credits the fastest. Do you honestly believe that if another profession, say NPC bounty hunting, earned at the rate of trading there wouldn't be a massive drop in the number of traders? The only way to combat that would be a commensurate increase in the number of NPC traders, whence pirates complain that NPCs are too easy / difficult / boring to pirate and a large number of them would also switch to NPC BHing. Similarly a large number of BH would ignore PC bounties because the NPC ones have greater earning potential.

Yes, you would never kill all the professions entirely because there will always be RPers and people not playing for credits, but you'd just be swapping one balance argument for another (..."the professions need balancing because too many people are NPC BHing, its just all PvE we need more PvP etc etc.").

I don't really get you "viability" argument - it's only really relevant if the player can't think past credits = winning. That measure of 'viablity' pre-selects for credit balancing, how could it not?

(BTW - if you have any ideas to make trading not boring I'm all ears! Some obviously enjoy working out trade loops and such, nothing could be duller to me)

I'm sorry I don't understand your point, I can't see how forcing people to trade is a good thing lol, If you buffed the other incomes people do what they want, if you leave them as is they do what they don't want, isn't the first better? Unless your goal was for people to be trading I guess

There's something about your point of view I don't get.

I also don't think a majority of people want trading to be dethroned, its pretty popular idea that trading makes the most, where the balance comes in is surely mining in an anaconda could be 50% of trading, at the moment its like 5-10% :/

Edit: No idea how to make trading more interesting other than a complete rework of the mechanics, the supply/demand are so enormous everywhere that it always gravitates towards simplest possible at the moment, there is no room for somebody to be a better trader, its just do you have a route or not.
 
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It wasn't fully backed up. FD doesn't communicate their intent with balance changes, however it doesn't mean they have no idea how to bring that balance. I would say putting title like this 'My concerns regarding balance of ED PowerPlay' would get a rep +1 from me.

Same here.

It seems to me in the past months we have seen several remarkable extremes in for example fuel prices, repair costs, bounty rewards etc etc.
I was thinking that perhaps FD is gathering data to see what the effect is on the game.
I just wait and see what will happen and go with the flow.
 
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I'm sorry I don't understand your point, I can't see how forcing people to trade is a good thing lol, If you buffed the other incomes people do what they want, if you leave them as is they do what they don't want, isn't the first better? Unless your goal was for people to be trading I guess

There's something about your point of view I don't get.

I also don't think a majority of people want trading to be dethroned, its pretty popular idea that trading makes the most, where the balance comes in is surely mining in an anaconda could be 50% of trading, at the moment its like 5-10% :/

Well, I think we may be agreeing from opposite ends of the argument - I'm not arguing that professions shouldn't be 'balanced' (meaning the imbalance should be adjusted), I just don't think a completely level field is desirable. I'm actually an advocate of playing the game "as is" mostly - using its mechanics as they are, not constantly wishing for them to be changed. In that regard, as part of the game, I don't think there is anything wrong with 'forcing' people to trade. If your objective is cr/hr, why would you be bothered about what it takes to get there? You'll do whatever earns the most right? If, like me, you just do whatever you like and earn some credits as you go along, why is it hard to accept that if you want to earn quicker you need to do something else? One of my 'soft targets' is to have a full stable of ships, and I'm OK with the fact that to get there I'll probably have to do some trading, and I probably won't enjoy it that much. It's unreasonable of me to expect to enjoy every profession in a game like ED, I don't think its unreasonable to 'have' to try different professions to achieve some of my (own) goals.
 
Why are all these values such neat, round numbers?

People like round numbers. We are conditioned to using them when convenient.

Having worked in game development i can say, its quite a natural thing to think of round numbers and multipliers when implementing things. Sometimes a person will get an idea for a crazy algorithm that would produce some scaling something like 1, 2.34, 4.5754, 9.7763434... and then someone will say. Meh, let's make it 1,2,5,10 then.
 
For you who say that the balance does not matter.
Trough gaming history; everything that is OP is played most, everything that is UP is played least.
In every mmo so far the most talked subject is balance. Balance defines pretty directly how people play the game, what they do in the game.

If it does not matter for you, good for you, but it does matter for most of us.

Balance in an MMO or otherwise is annoying at best and irrational at worst, driven by PvP mentality.

Real life is not balanced either in the workplace (flipping burgers does not pay the same as driving a truck, trading stocks, or writing SW for a living) or in the military.

"Now listen Mr Squaddie, do you want the open Jeep with your M16 to protect you, or the hummer with the 50cal machine gun and armor plating, or you want the M1A2 heavy tank?"

They dont ask the question, and there is no concept of "please 'balance' that 50cal so my unarmored Jeep driver can survive, oh and dont forget to adjust the M1A2 too" those vehicles do different jobs.

ED ships and guns should be the best they can be, and yes - everyone will gravitate to the heavily armored gun ships, and thats just fine if they want to pew-pew, if not then pick the smaller more nimble ships, and larger slower ones if they want to trade.

Just like the Jeep, they have their uses but only a crazy person would attempt to assault a tank in one.

my $0.02.
 
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I will bet money that that FDev has not played their own game half as much as your average player has. Personally pre 1.3 I would spend 32+ hours a weekend trying to boost my minor faction.

Games are like music. An artist has every right to express themselves, but I have every right not to buy their next cd.

They can either make the game they want, and sacrifice player population or they can let the game have some creative freedom with its audience. True art is 50% artist 50% audience. That's what makes it beautiful.

They know the game they want to make. We know the game we want to play. It's pretty simple.

Or most likely people not agreeing with their 'artistic vision' will leave. And people agreeing or tolerating it will stay.

True artist really care less about audience. He/she cares about his/her passion. That's what drives them. If someone's not liking what they are performing, well, no hard feelings?

Also you would lose money. FD QA has played game till they are sick.
 
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Hmm... I agree but strongly disagree.

First, balance should be thrown to the wind. It's the death of all games.

There should be roles, like trading, that can be a grind for a lot of credits. Most will flock to this until they get bored with the grind. But, think about the Pirate. If everything is balanced, then there's no reason to grind at a trade occupation. And the pirates lose targets. The targets that are left won't have the cargo to make pirating worth anything.

So, there's two professions out the window due to "balancing".

But wait, you lose pirates, you also lose the Bounty Hunters. No pirates, no targets. Welcome to later Japanese era's where the Samurai had nothing to do but feign sepuku to maybe get aid from a lord as there was no work for them to be had.

So, what's left? Exploring? Everyone turns to exploring. No one sees anyone so open play is out the window. The game becomes even more boring.

If anything, the game needs to be even more unbalanced. There must be unbalance otherwise there is nothing but stagnation in store for this game.

That's not to say there can't be improvements or changes. NPC's are that force. Adjusting the overall actions that NPC's take can have a huge affect on how the game is played. Not how fare one aspect of the game is to a player compared to another.
 
No game is perfect. I'll draw attention to the huge income disparity in EvE Online. It's well known that if you really want to make money in EvE then you need to get in to trading and you shouldn't expect to be seeing that amount of income, or flying the kinds of ships you would be, had you gone down the trading route. On the flip side if you want to go out and be a pirate or get stuck in to the zero security politics and generally spend your time doing less income related things, you really shouldn't be expecting to be making an equivalent income.

How does Eve balance this though? Well you have the ability for multiple characters, and it takes a long time to 'develop' a character into the skill set it needs to master that character's profession. You can also find loops around the game systems to transfer money from one character to another, enabling you to effectively balance out your different game needs, enabling you to be completely self sufficient given a large enough time investment.

Although ED might feel like it isn't balanced, I think it's a problem that people seem to want an equivalent income across professions, when they by nature would have a large disparity anyway. I think the real problem is that we only have one character, and we also have the ability to play across professions as and when we want to. There isn't a vertical progression to any of the professions that requires a time investment that feeds round into more advanced and increased rewards for committing to that time investment. I feel it is like this because we have one character, and so the game design is balanced around the individual's ability to 'blaze their own trail' while being limited to a single character.

How do you create vertical progression [increasing returns] in a system that is so 'open' that it caters to anyone doing any number of things in any combination they chose to at any time? I don't think it's possible. So it seems FD have essentially created two competing gameplay philosophies that currently lack the mechanical content to bridge the gap between them.

More specifically, the reason we feel like we need balance across professions, isn't because there is a problem with balance per-say. It is because there isn't enough vertical depth to each profession and over all mechanics that allows bridging between our chosen establishments within those vertical choices. My example being the multiple characters and asset transferal available in eve, with enough tertiary content (meta game) along side that to allow a healthy gameplay loop to emerge.

As it stands in ED, we have a system that is by design too 'open ended', too laterally broad and not vertically deep enough, to allow for any proper player investment in any one profession except for in the case of income, which is what makes us think it's a balance [income] problem. My argument is that it isn't, the problem is a deeper, more mechanical one.

FD shouldn't focus on balancing credits/ph, they need to work on making the professions deeper and more long term, more "realistic" and believable; and once that has been done, we as a community will not be so focused on credits as a focus of gameplay. We will by then have enough to become invested in in a proper gameplay sense. Making this "they need to balance income" hopefully calm down a lot. I think a lot of us are maybe missing the point a little bit, it's a subtler point sure, but to me it's the cause of a lot of this current debate.
 
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Oh totally fair enough. Artistic vision is integral and needs to be respected. However, my Saturday mornings are integral and need to be respected. For example there's no way I'm boosting some 2d character's faction using a broken background simulation and frustrating algorithms. Not a chance in hell.

But then don't do it. I don't want anyone themselves to force to play ED. Voice your concerns to QA and take time off to play something else, or even take a breather off PC.
 
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See that is the problem; so many people add the "Grind" themselves
Whiterose expressed his enjoyment i an activity and someone immediately crunches numbers to Cr/hr as if that is a way of quantifying the fun.
Especially when you take it to the extreme of 1 billion credits, as if that is the only acceptable objective...

I only pointed that Whiteroses playstyle is not valid for many others. It happens to be so that people are trading because they need the money, because that is the only valid way to get it in reasonable amount of time. I think I pointed this out rather clearly. Trading is boring and has bad game design, but it should not be a reason to make it the most profitable. ~None would trade if there were an option.


Balance in an MMO or otherwise is annoying at best and irrational at worst, driven by PvP mentality...
First, balance should be thrown to the wind. It's the death of all games.

If I were you, I would think why people are always talking so much about balance. Could there be a reason for that? Why all companies are interested to balance their games? I am sure FD is very interested to do so as well, I would be actually very surprised if they were not.

So... Well, just think about it.
 
balance is not about making things equal. It's about correcting risk and reward. High risk + High reward == balanced. Low risk + High Reward != balanced.

Whether one role or another makes significantly more money is not the real issue. It never was.

As far as grinding is concerned, it's easy to combat grinding theoretically, but a bit more complex to implement. The game needs to be unpredictable across roles. you can't know what you're getting into with decent certainty nor what you can expect to gain. The game has to be responsive and dynamic to what is going on , not a RNG throw of the dice weighted heavily one way or another (or not random at all).

I think FD can do that. I just dont know how high it is on their priority list compared to all the other secret stuff we dont know about.
 
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