The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[M00ka]

My feeling is I want better communication tools for my group...which is all guild tools really ate. Never understood what people's issue is I have played in games with guilds and have never experienced your horror stories. Likely because if you use a pvp flagging system you just turn the I want to have douchebags screw with me flag off. Proble solved. Call it high grade ecm.

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Better communications I can agree with. I guess I have seen the other side to the guild problem, might not be relevant here (but I think it will be). When I played BF2 and BF3, we didn't have guilds, we had clans. I have seen clans descend on a server (64 player), stack one side and completely dominate until all non clan people had left in disgust. I have played on Clan servers where 'local rules' stated that only Clan members can access aircraft or armour. Thus I can imagine how it would eventuate in ED. Yes, some guilds might play nice, but mob mentality would ensure that some guilds would decided they are gods and make the game unplayable for anyone unlucky enough to venture into their territory.
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As for your PVP flaggings, technically we have that already, it is called 'Clean' status. Does it stop pirates etc. attacking those clean players? No of course it doesn't. If your PVP Flagging makes it impossible for another ship to target it, guarantee it would be abused as an exploit. Otherwise you have just described Solo lol

 

[Ginrikuzuma]

Why do you guys ignore the solution that already exists for dealing with this problem. I have mentioned it twice.

A pirate, griefer, or anyone persistent enough to will attack you regardless of what you flagged yourself otherwise it would be exploited and every trader in open would have it installed.

You go to solo like I do if you want to avoid fights.

Edit: ...and ninja'ed lol ...or rather I didn't scroll down enough read the point was already made

 

[Jason S]

I wanted to vote for player owned stations but no guilds.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If FD were to implement a separate Guild Mode beside Solo, Group, and Open - I would be fully supportive of that.

But - who is to decide that a rich player cannot own a station without being in a guild? Makes no sense to me. You'd have to be really rich though, and I honestly don't believe that many player groups are rich enough to even think about the costs and expenses of operating a station.

If Guilds were ever to be implemented then a separate mode would be the most equitable way of doing it, in my opinion - a new Open-Guild mode setting on the matchmaking server. That way, players would select whether they wanted to be directly affected by Guild play each and every time they logged in to the game.

As to why no single player owned stations - I would expect that, if ever implemented, anyone would be able to create a Guild (a bit like Private Groups) and a suitably affluent player could create their own Guild and then buy assets for it.....

From what I have heard from DBOBE (EGX 2014 Q&A - watch his facial expression when the question is asked and compare it to his animation when discussing the previous question) and read recently that has been attributed to him (E3 interview with Arstechnica), I would not expect anything soon, if at all.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

Abused how? This has already been worked out in extreme detail in other MMOs.
If you are not flagged for pvp they can't attack you. If you attack someone you are flagged for pvp and you stay flagged for pvp for an extended period of time. In some games 5 min in others the whole day. This is not a hard problem to solve. And pretty much every system for guilds is basically just better communication tools. For those in the guild. Those tools do not harm others. So denying people access to those better tools is kind of not cool. The guild tools are not the problem. The mishandling of pvp is the problem. And that problem has been thoroughly tested with tools in place for dealing with it.

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Problem is this game has not implemented tools for dealing with griefers really. This game kind of leaves people out as low hanging fruit for those who would abuse. Which is why so many are moving to solo or group play.

 

[Taimaru]

I voted no to guilds or player owned stations. Whilst there are some really great players in the game (I met 150 of them at Lavecon) I don't want my freedom to move around the galaxy or to blaze my own trail as an insignificant pilot, which is what Elite is all about, affected by some idiot goon squad.

I am however in favour of better communication tools (e.g. group chat), however that wasn't included on the poll.

Maybe Frontier should release a new subscription based, so using servers instead of P2P, Elite based game called "Elite: Guild Wars". It could use a different instance of the Galaxy to the current Elite: Dangerous so it doesn't affect players that don't want to have anything to do with Guilds. It could also be entirely open (no solo mode). The subscription could also help fund Elite: Dangerous as well as itself.

You might say "but that would split the community" but I can guarantee that if you bought guilds and player owned stations into Elite: Dangerous into you would split the community anyway as people would limit themselves to solo/group or even worse, stop playing altogether.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

Te already are. Mostly because elite dangerous has no tools for dealing g with abusers whose sole goal in life is killing other pcs. This is not a guild problem. It is a mishandling of pvper problem.

 

[Ginrikuzuma]

Abused how? This has already been worked out in extreme detail in other MMOs.
If you are not flagged for pvp they can't attack you. If you attack someone you are flagged for pvp and you stay flagged for pvp for an extended period of time. In some games 5 min in others the whole day. This is not a hard problem to solve. And pretty much every system for guilds is basically just better communication tools. For those in the guild. Those tools do not harm others. So denying people access to those better tools is kind of not cool. The guild tools are not the problem. The mishandling of pvp is the problem. And that problem has been thoroughly tested with tools in place for dealing with it.

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Problem is this game has not implemented tools for dealing with griefers really. This game kind of leaves people out as low hanging fruit for those who would abuse. Which is why so many are moving to solo or group play.

MMOs I've played systems you are trying to point out have gone one of a few ways

1) they either have pve / pvp servers
2) they have pvp areas with regions locked as only pve (say beginner areas for example as well as towns)
3) you have to formally accept a duel via a request

none of that will work here.
1. from my understanding while we don't have pvp/pve servers some private groups (like Mobius) serve the purpose of being pve only with Open acting like the PvP server
2. we don't have areas with pve locked sections (you can argue stations and even then aside from becoming wanted and being fired upon by the station) there is little stopping anyone from attacking anyone on sight hell you will simply receive a slap on the wrist (a fine) if you decide to shoot a wanted pirate inside the "no fire zone" of a station.
3. This would plain out be a horrible idea in this type of game.

Again if you don't want to be "flagged for pvp" go to a private group or go to solo.

If you are wanted or an enemy there is nothing stopping anyone firing upon you without consequence.
If you are clean, there is nothing stopping anyone firing upon you unless they want to avoid a bounty and for some (again, pirates, griefers, "psychos", etc. )


PvP isn't the problem, its people wanting a safe PvE environment in a PvP environment.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Abused how? This has already been worked out in extreme detail in other MMOs.
If you are not flagged for pvp they can't attack you. If you attack someone you are flagged for pvp and you stay flagged for pvp for an extended period of time. In some games 5 min in others the whole day. This is not a hard problem to solve. And pretty much every system for guilds is basically just better communication tools. For those in the guild. Those tools do not harm others. So denying people access to those better tools is kind of not cool. The guild tools are not the problem. The mishandling of pvp is the problem. And that problem has been thoroughly tested with tools in place for dealing with it.

- - - Updated - - -

Problem is this game has not implemented tools for dealing with griefers really. This game kind of leaves people out as low hanging fruit for those who would abuse. Which is why so many are moving to solo or group play.

The idea of using PvP flags was mooted in the DDF discussions (somewhere) - there was, from memory, a general agreement that they would be a bad idea and too "gamey" for E: D.

Even if a player cannot be attacked, they can be rammed - and ramming causes damage. If a PvP player is attacking a target, a PvE player could deliberately obscure their line of fire to thwart the attack - with no penalty.

Given that there is no universally agreed definition of what a "griefer" actually is, developing tools that can accurately identify griefing and deal with it would probably be an extremely difficult task with many unintended consequences.

 

[DsG Offensive]

The idea of using PvP flags was mooted in the DDF discussions (somewhere) - there was, from memory, a general agreement that they would be a bad idea and too "gamey" for E: D.

Even if a player cannot be attacked, they can be rammed - and ramming causes damage. If a PvP player is attacking a target, a PvE player could deliberately obscure their line of fire to thwart the attack - with no penalty.

Given that there is no universally agreed definition of what a "griefer" actually is, developing tools that can accurately identify griefing and deal with it would probably be an extremely difficult task with many unintended consequences.

That's kinda why I made the suggestion of possibly limiting guild combat to conflict zones that pop up every now and then and cycle that way people aren't constantly fighting and it limits the regular players exposure to the fighting. I.e. if anyone here has ever played warframe (I know not an mmo technically) but if you know what dark sector pvp is basically clans fight over control of a sector and once a month or so and whoever wins gets to collect taxes off of players who play PVE in that zone for the month until it cycles again and they either maintain control of the zone or loose it too another clan

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

Which is resulting in people leaving open in droves...which I get the impression was not the goal FD had in mind. My impression is they want more people in open. And guilds are not the problem. Pvp is the problem. Instead of slapping down guilds. Deal with the pvp problem.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Personally i'm not keen on the idea of player led guilds. I like the small fish in a big pond feel you get with ED. What i'd like instead is for the tools we get with PP to be improved so that players can better manage and work with their powers and other players who support that power.

Regarding stations, i'm totally in favour of small deployable stations for group activities (or solo, just perhaps hard to achieve alone - gathering required resources etc) for things like mining and exploration. Just to act as temporary waypoints for people performing those activities. Suppose i could also support like a mini-deployable pirate base as well, which you could stock up with ammo and stuff to use as a temporary launching place for strikes.

I stress temporary here. Like the mobile mining platforms that were mooted early on.

 

[VladtheImpaler]

Personally i'm not keen on the idea of player led guilds. I like the small fish in a big pond feel you get with ED. What i'd like instead is for the tools we get with PP to be improved so that players can better manage and work with their powers and other players who support that power.

Regarding stations, i'm totally in favour of small deployable stations for group activities (or solo, just perhaps hard to achieve alone - gathering required resources etc) for things like mining and exploration. Just to act as temporary waypoints for people performing those activities. Suppose i could also support like a mini-deployable pirate base as well, which you could stock up with ammo and stuff to use as a temporary launching place for strikes.

I stress temporary here. Like the mobile mining platforms that were mooted early on.

If you don't want to be in a guild, that's fine. But you feel so strongly that no one else can?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which is resulting in people leaving open in droves...which I get the impression was not the goal FD had in mind. My impression is they want more people in open. And guilds are not the problem. Pvp is the problem. Instead of slapping down guilds. Deal with the pvp problem.

From DBOBE's recent interview with Arstechnica, he is recorded as holding the opinion that there is no "right" way to play the game. As Powerplay and Community Goals are available to all players in all game modes and now on all platforms, there would appear to be no "right" game mode either.

While PvP is a problem for some, it is one issue. If PvP were to be "fixed" (not sure how), that still does not mean that Guilds would be a good idea.

 

[Nagual]

Thanks for the thread. Been a while since someone asked about this stuff, at least asked about it in a mature fashion. I disagree whole heartedly though, as your solutions mess with other players game play and your opinions on how that would effect other players in any mode are not based on all the data. Only FD have that.

During Alpha and Beta the Devs asked us not to post solutions or answers to problems. They asked us to explain what the problems were, why they were problems etc. They said it was their job to come up with solutions.

Why do you need space stations?

Why do you need guilds?

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Which is resulting in people leaving open in droves.

Opinion ?

 

[Talarin]

I'm a strong advocate for introducing enhanced social tools which are broadly similar to Guild-like functionality, but I don't agree with player-owned stations or systems. I think the potential problems outweigh the benefits and it would take a considerable amount of developer time for a set of features that benefit a limited number of players.

However, I am a fan of allowing player-run businesses to exist on AI-controlled infrastructure (as this would be relatively easy to expand to include AI-controlled versions). For example, a player-owned mining or refining business, player-owned hanger facilities etc.

Elite Dangerous does need some new content. PowerPlay frankly isn't what a lot of players hoped it would be. There is more room for feature expansion and an added layer of granularity beneath the existing Major Faction -> Power -> Minor faction could be it.

Either way, best of luck with the poll.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

W need guilds because we need better tools for those who want to group to communicate and be able coordinate activities better. To be better able to wing up or whatever.

 

[CMDR M Kozak]

I agree with FD decision not to support a guild mechanic. But, with all of the hoopla over the reddit thing I have devised a way I could support the idea. How about Guilds can only operate in Group? You join a Guild, and you can only access their benefits/holdings in that guilds private group. You can all group up and co-ordinate, but you can't have a system in open that you can dominate. And I don't want to hear anything about guild sized content.

But but but... then they cant swing around the e-peen for every one to see!!

Groups wants to show off, they want some way of showing the universe how great they are. And currently they cant because ED isnt really that kind of game.
Some of them hoped that powerplay would become such a ladder, but as they slowly realise that even they as a group (with forums and teamspeak servers and all) are insignificant in affecting anything... they cry and make goodbye threads like the EIC one.

Guilds, no.
Small groups in open (larger than wings) yes.
Player owned content will never work in a shared universe with different game modes. Solo players destroy open players stuff and vice verse.

 

[jabokai]

I preferred the old thread.